Faith without works is dead

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus Himself described "Faith in Him" as a work of God that can be DONE. (John 6:28-29: "
28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (emphasis mine)

So even belief is a WORK.

Yep, it is a work of God. not our work.

So you can not relate faith (a work of God) with water baptism (a work of man) as the same things, for one is done by God himself. the other is performed by men, and work is also done by the one being baptised.

where as Holy Spirit Baptism (as apposed to water baptism) can be related to faith, as both are works of God. God gets all the credit.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Yep, it is a work of God. not our work.

So you can not relate faith (a work of God) with water baptism (a work of man) as the same things, for one is done by God himself. the other is performed by men, and work is also done by the one being baptised.

where as Holy Spirit Baptism (as apposed to water baptism) can be related to faith, as both are works of God. God gets all the credit.

They asked Jesus about the work of God that they could do and Jesus told then that the work they could do is believe.
Now you want to turn that verse around and insist that Jesus told them that the work of God is belief.
Jesus answered them, He didn't merely say that the work of God is belief.
It all depends on where you place the emphasis in this verse. If you say "This is the work of GOD that you believe on Him whom He has sent."; then you are saying that faith is something that only God does, man is incapable of doing it. However if you emphasize it thusly: "THIS is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."; then you are saying that faith is MAN'S work.

When they asked Jesus "What is the work of God, so that WE can work the works of God?"; Jesus answers them and tells them that believing in Him is that work which they can do.

Yet I understand why you would turn this around to satisfy your own doctrine, Calvinistic "Faith Only", and want to quarrel about contrived idiosyncrasies, but this verse is not saying that Faith is a work of God alone. It is saying that faith is a work that man does.

Jesus essentially said: "You want to know about the work that you can do, well this is that work; Believe in me, whom the Father has sent."

This is the last thing I am going to say, because I am not arguing about your misconceptions.

 

[Mindwrencher]

Yep, it is a work of God. not our work.

So you can not relate faith (a work of God) with water baptism (a work of man) as the same things, for one is done by God himself. the other is performed by men, and work is also done by the one being baptised.

where as Holy Spirit Baptism (as apposed to water baptism) can be related to faith, as both are works of God. God gets all the credit.
[/QUOTE

Now I have to go against not saying anything else and saying something more.

Jesus clearly answered them and told them that the work THEY could do, is to believe in Him whom the Father had sent.

You say Holy Spirit baptism is a work that God does. I say Holy Spirit baptism is a work that God has done.

So let's look at that Holy Spirit baptism.

Joel 2:28; "And it will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on ALL MANKIND; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. And even on the male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit in those days."

Now who would receive this "pouring out" of God's spirit, only believers? NO, but upon ALL MANKIND.

Now fast forward to Pentecost. Acts 2:14-21: "14) But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: 'Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words, 15) 'For these men are not drunk, as you' (Calvinists,LOL) "suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day. 16) but this is what was spoken of through the prophet JOEL:

17) 'And it shall be in the last days' , God says, 'That I will pour FORTH of My Spirit UPON ALL MANKIND , and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18) Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy. 19) And I will grant wonders in the sky above, and signs in the earth beneath, Blood, and Fire, and Vapor or smoke. 20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the Great an Glorious day of the Lord shall come. 21) And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord, SHALL BE SAVED."

Notice that this is NOT the end times rapture, but rather the establishment of God's Kingdom upon earth, the advent of His ekklesia, His "called out", His elect, the church; BECAUSE "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord, SHALL BE SAVED.

AND ALSO BECAUSE PETER SAID "THIS IS WHAT WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL."

Once again, what did Joel say? That the Spirit of God would be POURED OUT ON ALL MANKIND.
.
And what did Peter say? "THIS is what was spoken of through the prophet JOEL,". "17) 'And it shall be in the last days', GOD SAYS,'that I will POUR FORTH of My Spirit UPON ALL MANKIND,..."

God poured forth His Spirit on Pentecost, UPON ALL MANKIND. Otherwise you say He poured only a portion of His Spirit. Now if the Holy Spirit is a living being, how is it that only a portion of His Being could be POURED OUT, because "God giveth the Spirit not by limit". (Jn 3:30-34: "30 He must become greater; I must become less.”[a]

31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[b]gives the Spirit without limit."

So ALL of the HOLY SPIRIT was poured out UPON ALL MANKIND on Pentecost.

BUT, just because He has been poured out upon all mankind, it does NOT mean that He INDWELLS all mankind.

Don't equate that which is unequivocal.

Hence my earlier remarks about how the Holy Spirit does things; the comings upon, empowerings and teleporting Philip to the Eunuch. And the difference between those things and His Indwelling the saved, the ransomed, the sealed (The HOLY SPIRIT is the seal of our inheritance in Jesus).

Question: Since the world was BAPTIZED IN THE SPIRIT on Pentecost, (picture all mankind being "covered up", ie. immersed, by the "Pouring out" of the Spirit, hence the Baptism of the Spirit); is this the "One Baptism" mentioned later? Because if it is, then ALL MANKIND has received it. But ALL MANKIND is NOT saved, or indwelled by the Spirit. So if there is only ONE BAPTISM, was it that Pouring out which was given to ALL MANKIND?

Also note, that just because the Spirit has been poured out upon all mankind, it does NOT mean that He also empowers them.

The Holy Spirit is in our world, assisting us in our struggle against principalities and powers beyond flesh and blood, and even beyond this world!! (Eph 6:12. Note: If you read this verse and end up with something associated with "Flesh and Blood" ,(ie. humanity), then have read it wrongly.)

 

[mailmandan]

Will the Holy Spirit only empower those who are saved? How about our Father? Will He only empower the saved? Many have referred to the salvation of Cornelius and the fact that the Holy Spirit empowered him before "water baptism" as some kind of affirmation of his salvation.

Acts 10:43-47 does not merely imply that Cornelius was empowered by the Holy Spirit, but not yet indwelled by the Holy Spirit before water baptism and was still lost. Acts 10:45 says "the gift of the Holy Spirit" had been poured out on the Gentiles also (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit). Acts 10:46 said they spoke in tongues, (which is a spiritual gift for the body of Christ only - 1 Corinthians 12). Acts 10:47 says they "received the Holy Spirit" before water baptism. Acts 11:17 says they received the same gift (Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved). So they clearly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism.

This would carry a LOT of weight with me if it weren't for Balaam's donkey. If we could just shut that donkey up, I would be impressed by Cornelius and his crowd. But if God can empower a donkey to speak, His empowerment means nothing regarding "salvation".

This has to be the most ludicrous argument that I have ever heard! I almost fell out of my chair when I read this! The Lord simply opened the donkey's mouth in order to rebuke Balaam. This was not the gift of tongues for the body of Christ under the New Covenant - 1 Corinthians 12. The donkey did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, did not receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit for believers and was not placed into the body of Christ. Now show me some examples in the NT where people believed the gospel and received the gift of the Holy Spirit but were still lost in their sins.

We know from the life of Saul that he was nothing like a prophet, yet the Holy Spirit "came upon him" and he prophesied mightily.

The conversion of Cornelius has the Holy Spirit, once again, "coming upon" people for the event to occur.

The Spirit of God does many things. He transports Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch. He "falls upon" others. He "empowered" Samson:
The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him … Judges 14:6, NIV
The Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily [text note: lit., rushed upon him] … Judges 14:6, NAS
He "came on" Gideon, and "clothed" Gideon:
Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Gideon. Judges 6:34, NIV
But the Spirit of the Lord clothed Gideon. Judges 6:34, ESV
Despite these occurrences in which the Spirit acts, He does not "indwell them".

In the OT, the Spirit of the Lord came upon people to empower them to accomplish certain tasks, but He did not permanently indwell them. They were not sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13) in the OT, so your argument is moot.

And it is this "indwelling" one MUST have in order to belong to God (Rom 8:9: "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.")

This indwelling did occur for these Gentiles in Acts 10-11. They believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, received the gift of the Holy Spirit (and were not merely empowered but not sealed like in the OT) and they spoke in tongues, which is a gift of the Spirit for the body of Christ only - 1 Corinthians 12). It simply amazes me to see how much dancing around the truth that people will do in order accommodate their biased church doctrine.

 

[Dan58]

Faith is demonstrated by works.. Faith is synonymous with works, faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead.. If we claim to have faith but have no works, we are essentially talking the talk but not walking the walk. Some might call that hypocrisy? To me, all James is saying is to do in deed what you believe in your heart.

 

[KennethC]

Why does it have to be in water? Why can't it be what it really is which is in Christ. Baptism in Christ saves. Baptism in water gets you wet.

Everyone who is baptized in Christ should be baptized in water but only as a sign and seal of their baptism in Christ.

Being baptized in Christ and being immersed in water (baptizo) is all one and the same process, you can not separate the one from the other. For even Christ Himself did it and commanded us to do it as well !!!

 

[KennethC]

You've been told time and time and yet time again, the word airo (airo) means "lifts up," not the egregious "takes away" as most modern translations, in imitation and tradition of the Douay-Reims and KJV, continue to incorrectly render it. The "lifting up" is a corrective action taken by the vinedresser who cares for the plants in a vineyard, the focus of Christ's analogy.

These branches have fallen down, because of a storm, or carelessness. The vinedresser cleans off the branch and gently ties it back into the trellis so it can flourish as part of the vine. The vinedresser who broke off a living but struggling vine and threw it away would be a fool who knows nothing about his vineyard. Christ is no fool, but I wonder about the one who thinks this would be how He treats His fallen branches.

You ignore good scholarship and refuse to correct your thinking despite the overwhelming evidence you are dead wrong. Your insistence on clinging to bad theology to justify an errant teaching calls into question your own salvation, since you reject the grace of God to preach the works of man for a self-preservation that is not possible.

Are you serious it says only those that bare fruit are pruned, not the ones that don't bare fruit !!!

The ones that don't bare fruit verse 6 of John 15 says they will be gathered and thrown into the fire and burned, they do not still receive eternal life for their disobedience. They are not taken to heaven or lifted up as you are trying to claim, for verse 6 shows their outcome and there is no lifting up in being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are you serious it says only those that bare fruit are pruned, not the ones that don't bare fruit !!!

The ones that don't bare fruit verse 6 of John 15 says they will be gathered and thrown into the fire and burned, they do not still receive eternal life for their disobedience. They are not taken to heaven or lifted up as you are trying to claim, for verse 6 shows their outcome and there is no lifting up in being cast into the lake of fire.

Good day KennethC,

I am in total agreement with you. It is amazing to me how many people there are that oppose salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the law.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

As the Scripture states: It is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Or as the NLT paraphrases it:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

After we receive Christ and the Holy Spirit takes up residency within us, the true believer will have a natural desire to do good works, but not for the sake of obtaining or maintaining salvation, but to glorify God. And by doing so we are also building up our treasures in heaven. But as far as salvation and eternal life goes, Jesus alone purchased men for God with his own blood. Our part is faith in the Lord and what he accomplished for us. Looking toward Jesus, trusting in him as the One who provided salvation is how we are saved.

A perfect example of this is father Abraham. He was credited with righteousness because he believed God in regards to His promise to give him a son. Abraham was not credited with righteousness because he was circumcised, or because he obeyed the law, or because after he received the promise he went out and fed and clothed the poor. It was because he believe what God told him, period! We are his spiritual children in faith if we have the same faith and that without works. As far as works go, we are not saved by them, but we will receive rewards for them, if those works make it through the fire. Anyone who is trusting in works for salvation, it will have the opposite affect keeping the person out of eternal life and that because they would be trusting in their own efforts instead of Christ's efforts.

Therefore, Vigilant_Warrior is incorrect regarding this issue. (By the way, the correct spelling is Vigilant not "Viligant")

Blessings!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Being baptized in Christ and being immersed in water (baptizo) is all one and the same process, you can not separate the one from the other. For even Christ Himself did it and commanded us to do it as well !!!

Um, No, baptized in Christ is baptized in Christ, Baptized in water is baptized in water. Christ is not equal to water, Your in Christ or your in water, not both.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good day KennethC,

I am in total agreement with you. It is amazing to me how many people there are that oppose salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the law.

So you agree with someone who teaches salvation by works. And yell at others for apposing salvation by grace through faith. when he himself apposes faith by adding works?

Amazing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They asked Jesus about the work of God that they could do and Jesus told then that the work they could do is believe.
Now you want to turn that verse around and insist that Jesus told them that the work of God is belief.

I just say what the word of God says.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

So it says the work of God is to believe in Jesus, now you want to tell me I am wrong?

Jesus answered them, He didn't merely say that the work of God is belief.
It all depends on where you place the emphasis in this verse. If you say "This is the work of GOD that you believe on Him whom He has sent."; then you are saying that faith is something that only God does, man is incapable of doing it. However if you emphasize it thusly: "THIS is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."; then you are saying that faith is MAN'S work.

I think Your confused my friend. and reading way to much into it.

Jesus did ALL the work of salvation, when we trust in Jesus and the work God did through him, we are trusting in GODS WORK. thus it is a WORK of God that we trust him. (we trust in Gods work, not our own)

that is what these peiple in John 6 could not fathom, they wanted to do their own works to earn salvation. because they did not understand that by the law they were condemned.

When they asked Jesus "What is the work of God, so that WE can work the works of God?"; Jesus answers them and tells them that believing in Him is that work which they can do.

No, thats wrong.

They asked what work we must do. Jesus said, it is the work of God you must place your faith in, not your own work.

Yet I understand why you would turn this around to satisfy your own doctrine, Calvinistic "Faith Only", and want to quarrel about contrived idiosyncrasies, but this verse is not saying that Faith is a work of God alone. It is saying that faith is a work that man does.

You do not understand anything, calling me a calvanist for one is in error (for I am no more Calvinist than arminian was, nor am I arminian by the way) . And two. you do not even understand what Jesus is saying. let alone, going to claim why I believe the way I do, then give an answer which is in error.

It is my faith, in the work of God. that saves me, Nothing more, nothing less.

Jesus essentially said: "You want to know about the work that you can do, well this is that work; Believe in me, whom the Father has sent."

This is the last thing I am going to say, because I am not arguing about your misconceptions.

thats ok, you made no argument at all. You did what alot of people do. and ued your misconceptions of what others believe based on what your taught in church, and made huge mistakes. so unless your willing to open your mind that I do not believe what you think I believe there is no need in going on any further. Because your arguments are useless.

 

[KennethC]

Um, No, baptized in Christ is baptized in Christ, Baptized in water is baptized in water. Christ is not equal to water, Your in Christ or your in water, not both.

Then explain to me how you think one gets baptized into Christ ???

If you say it is by the Holy Spirit I will agree, but then how did you get the Holy Spirit if ???

If you say by repenting of sin and getting immersed in water to be converted into one of His disciples (Matthew 28:19-20) then I would agree also.

It is all of the same process of a true active faith in the Lord !!!

So you agree with someone who teaches salvation by works. And yell at others for apposing salvation by grace through faith. when he himself apposes faith by adding works?

Amazing.

Again as always you make bold face false allegations as I do not teach salvation by works.

What I teach is that the works that come in the faith from the fruits of the Spirit are proof of one who is truly saved in the faith, and without those works the Word of God says they are not saved.

I do not appose faith, I defend the true saving faith the bible speaks of !!!

You and others continue the misuse of Ephesians 2:9 to make it speaking on all works when it is only speaking on works of the law. For it is not referring to works of the faith that the Lord commanded to be done !!!

 

[KennethC]

Good day KennethC,

I am in total agreement with you. It is amazing to me how many people there are that oppose salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the law.

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

As the Scripture states: It is by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Or as the NLT paraphrases it:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

After we receive Christ and the Holy Spirit takes up residency within us, the true believer will have a natural desire to do good works, but not for the sake of obtaining or maintaining salvation, but to glorify God. And by doing so we are also building up our treasures in heaven. But as far as salvation and eternal life goes, Jesus alone purchased men for God with his own blood. Our part is faith in the Lord and what he accomplished for us. Looking toward Jesus, trusting in him as the One who provided salvation is how we are saved.

A perfect example of this is father Abraham. He was credited with righteousness because he believed God in regards to His promise to give him a son. Abraham was not credited with righteousness because he was circumcised, or because he obeyed the law, or because after he received the promise he went out and fed and clothed the poor. It was because he believe what God told him, period! We are his spiritual children in faith if we have the same faith and that without works. As far as works go, we are not saved by them, but we will receive rewards for them, if those works make it through the fire. Anyone who is trusting in works for salvation, it will have the opposite affect keeping the person out of eternal life and that because they would be trusting in their own efforts instead of Christ's efforts.

Therefore, Vigilant_Warrior is incorrect regarding this issue. (By the way, the correct spelling is Vigilant not "Viligant")

Blessings!

Luke 6:46-49 and John 3:21 are two of many places the Lord Jesus says those who believe in Him are those who does what He said.

 

[mailmandan]

You and others continue the misuse of Ephesians 2:9 to make it speaking on all works when it is only speaking on works of the law. For it is not referring to works of the faith that the Lord commanded to be done !!!

So which works don't save and which works do save? Works of faith "done out of faith" are still works. Is the Lord commanding believers to do these works "in order to become saved" or because they are saved? What is cause and what is effect?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then explain to me how you think one gets baptized into Christ ???

Well. How does one get baptized in water? does not someone take you, and immerse you in water?

It would be the same way to be baptized into Christ. Someone (in this case God himself, more literally the HS) immersing or placing you in Christ.

it is not rocket science, Just take the meaning of the word the way it was taken in ancient rome, when it was written.

Scripture states the people of ancient Israel were baptized into Moses. The same meaning of the word is used.

If you say it is by the Holy Spirit I will agree, but then how did you get the Holy Spirit if ???

Well I had to be baptized by the HS first. Ths your off topic here. for if one is not cleansed by the baptism of the spirit. then they can not yet recieve the HS yet.

If you say by repenting of sin and getting immersed in water to be converted into one of His disciples (Matthew 28:19-20) then I would agree also.

No, I would not say this, for then I would be earning the HS and not be given the HS as a gift.

It is all of the same process of a true active faith in the Lord !!!

Nope. what your professing is faith in self to be baptized, and the man baptizing you to give you the gift of the HS, and not on God himself doing ALL THE WORK.

It may be based on faith, but it is nnot faith or trust in God.

Again as always you make bold face false allegations as I do not teach salvation by works.

You can say this till you blue in the face, but it is not true,
I can say I do not work for my wage all I want, but as long as I am receiving a wage for work performed. I am working for my wage.

What I teach is that the works that come in the faith from the fruits of the Spirit are proof of one who is truly saved in the faith, and without those works the Word of God says they are not saved.

But your not saying this, or you would not say a person is saved UNTIL they do those works.
Instead you would be saying they did those works as a result of their salvation. (ie, they were baptised in water BECAUSE GOD SAVED THEM not SO GOD WILL SAVE THEM..

see the difference?

I do not appose faith, I defend the true saving faith the bible speaks of !!!

Your opposed to faith in God alone from what I see. if I am wrong, show me where you believe faith alone in the WORK OF GOD alone is what saves you. and man has no work whasoever in his own salvation.

You and others continue the misuse of Ephesians 2:9 to make it speaking on all works when it is only speaking on works of the law. For it is not referring to works of the faith that the Lord commanded to be done !!!

the works of the law are not even context of ephesians 2. .. A work is a work is a work. If I can boast (take credit) for something I receive then I have earned it, It is not of grace.

as Paul said, Both of works lest anyone should boast. We can boast of any work. not just works of the law. So sorry, Again you are in error.

 

[KennethC]

So which works don't save and which works do save? Works of faith "done out of faith" are still works. Is the Lord commanding believers to do these works "in order to become saved" or because they are saved? What is cause and what is effect?

Works done in the faith are not works done by self, they are the teachings and guidance of the Lord Jesus Himself on what we are to do to be reconciled to God by receiving the remission of our sin through Him.

That is the completed work done on the cross by our Lord, now we must follow His teachings and commands in the faith to receive that remission by Him.

That is why the Word of God says we have been saved by grace "through faith" and not of ourselves.

Because we are not the one's who showed us how to walk in the faith, it is the Lord's teachings that tell us how to receive that remission and to continue receiving it.

When you get baptized as He commanded....................It is still His works, not our own

When you forgive others as He commanded...................It is His works, not our own

Anything done that the Lord taught or commanded is not our own works, and He would not command it if it didn't need to be done.

It is amazing that even Jesus got immersed in water and told John, "This has to be done to fulfill all righteousness."
Then he even commanded it to be continued and done, and so did the Apostles, yet some of you now days says it doesn't...

 

[KennethC]

Well. How does one get baptized in water? does not someone take you, and immerse you in water?

It would be the same way to be baptized into Christ. Someone (in this case God himself, more literally the HS) immersing or placing you in Christ.

it is not rocket science, Just take the meaning of the word the way it was taken in ancient rome, when it was written.

Scripture states the people of ancient Israel were baptized into Moses. The same meaning of the word is used.


Well I had to be baptized by the HS first. Ths your off topic here. for if one is not cleansed by the baptism of the spirit. then they can not yet recieve the HS yet.

No, I would not say this, for then I would be earning the HS and not be given the HS as a gift.


Nope. what your professing is faith in self to be baptized, and the man baptizing you to give you the gift of the HS, and not on God himself doing ALL THE WORK.

It may be based on faith, but it is nnot faith or trust in God.


You can say this till you blue in the face, but it is not true,
I can say I do not work for my wage all I want, but as long as I am receiving a wage for work performed. I am working for my wage.




But your not saying this, or you would not say a person is saved UNTIL they do those works.
Instead you would be saying they did those works as a result of their salvation. (ie, they were baptised in water BECAUSE GOD SAVED THEM not SO GOD WILL SAVE THEM..

see the difference?

Your opposed to faith in God alone from what I see. if I am wrong, show me where you believe faith alone in the WORK OF GOD alone is what saves you. and man has no work whasoever in his own salvation.


the works of the law are not even context of ephesians 2. .. A work is a work is a work. If I can boast (take credit) for something I receive then I have earned it, It is not of grace.

as Paul said, Both of works lest anyone should boast. We can boast of any work. not just works of the law. So sorry, Again you are in error.

Read Ephesians 2 again carefully and pay close attention to especially verse 15 !!!

Also baptism of the Holy Spirit and receive the Holy Spirit is the same thing, and Acts 5:32 says is given to only those who obey. Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19-20 and Luke 13:3 show what has to be obeyed first to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

Works done in the faith are not works done by self, they are the teachings and guidance of the Lord Jesus Himself on what we are to do to be reconciled to God by receiving the remission of our sin through Him.

Acts 10:43 - Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.

That is the completed work done on the cross by our Lord, now we must follow His teachings and commands in the faith to receive that remission by Him.

We receive salvation by grace through faith FIRST, then we follow His teachings and commands/created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works afterwards - Ephesians 2:8-10.

That is why the Word of God says we have been saved by grace "through faith" and not of ourselves.

The Word of God says not of ourselves because it's not by works. Not saved by those works, but saved by these works is still of ourselves.

Because we are not the one's who showed us how to walk in the faith, it is the Lord's teachings that tell us how to receive that remission and to continue receiving it.

When you get baptized as He commanded....................It is still His works, not our own

Man accomplishes the work of getting water baptized. It is a work. That is saved through faith "plus a work."

When you forgive others as He commanded...................It is His works, not our own

Man chooses to accomplish the work of forgiving, which characterizes those who are born again.

Anything done that the Lord taught or commanded is not our own works, and He would not command it if it didn't need to be done.

We still accomplish these works. Calling them the Lord's works does not mean that this does not equate to salvation by works.

It is amazing that even Jesus got immersed in water and told John, "This has to be done to fulfill all righteousness."
Then he even commanded it to be continued and done, and so did the Apostles, yet some of you now days says it doesn't...

Clearly, water baptism is a "work of righteousness" according to the Lord and Paul clearly said that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done - Titus 3:5. These Gentiles were commanded to be water baptized AFTER they believed in Him, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works done in the faith are not works done by self, they are the teachings and guidance of the Lord Jesus Himself on what we are to do to be reconciled to God by receiving the remission of our sin through Him.

That is the completed work done on the cross by our Lord, now we must follow His teachings and commands in the faith to receive that remission by Him.

ie, You teach a gospel of works.

That is why the Word of God says we have been saved by grace "through faith" and not of ourselves.

yes it does. Because no matter ho hard we work. no matter how much e obey God. no matter what work we do. We still fall short of the glory of God.

Because we are not the one's who showed us how to walk in the faith, it is the Lord's teachings that tell us how to receive that remission and to continue receiving it.

Yes it does. Through humility, and grace, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Now if you want to talk about sanctification and works which sanctify ys, we can talk.

But justification will always of of grace through faith alone.

When you get baptized as He commanded....................It is still His works, not our own

No. It is your work. Unless you are not doing that work to earn or receive anything.

ie, if your doing it to earn salvation, it is your work, if your doing it out of appreciation for what God did for you (saving you completely) then it is a work of God.

that is what separates a work of faith and a work of man.

When you forgive others as He commanded...................It is His works, not our own

Anything done that the Lord taught or commanded is not our own works, and He would not command it if it didn't need to be done.

Still not true, because the pharisees did what the lord commanded in the law. Yet God still called it their own righteousness.

if your doing it to EARN something ( a wage) then it is YOUR WORK (see romans 4) If your doing it out of faith ,expecting nothing in return, then it is a work of God in you.

It is amazing that even Jesus got immersed in water and told John, "This has to be done to fulfill all righteousness."
Then he even commanded it to be continued and done, and so did the Apostles, yet some of you now days says it doesn't...

It did.

what it never did is save jesus, nor did jesus claim we had to do it to be saved.

Jesus did it because the hig priest was always washed in the river (even arron was washed by moses) to fuflill the type.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read Ephesians 2 again carefully and pay close attention to especially verse 15 !!!

read ephs 1 again, The whole thing, then read eph 2.

vs 15 of eph 2 does not give us context for the first chapter and the first part of chapter 2 where pauls tells us all these things we have recieved as children of God. and how we recieved them.

Also baptism of the Holy Spirit and receive the Holy Spirit is the same thing, and Acts 5:32 says is given to only those who obey. Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19-20 and Luke 13:3 show what has to be obeyed first to receive the Holy Spirit.

wrong.

Baptize is to place in, or to dunk in, To come into or pour on is called annoint. Do you not even read the OT? the washing (baptism) happened to aaron.

One who is not cleaned, can not have God enter them. You should know there is a difference between the two..