U.S. Supreme Court declines stay 4 clerk refusing to issue gay marriage certificates

[Omni]

Following the bible is a worldview not a lifestyle choice....trying to equate it with what gender you identify with today or the next day is...well....what I wanna say I won't. Lol

The point is, you people choose to believe it. You people choose to follow it. Other people don't. It's a personal commitment. If I decide to become a Buddhist, should I all-of-a-sudden demand that everybody in Ireland abstain from meat, meditate several hours a day, and live a life of abstinence?

No, I should practice my religion with awareness that it is my religion, my choice, and my commitment. It's about your personal relationship with God, right? You choose to follow the laws of the bible. You choose to believe in a creator God. You make a covenant with God, you swear him an oath. But it's your oath, not mine.

 

[Omni]

Omni, go back and read the posts. Please.

What you must realize is that bible principles played a major part in the establishing and forming of our country, you might understand the issue. But not just that. You also must realize that the careless attitude toward sin and it being given the green light by our government is not going to benefit this nation. God destroyed such nations in the past.

So if China should come a stomping through your country. That mighty communist country. It launches missiles. It launches a most powerful attack. Us Christian here should be silent. I mean, killing innocent lives is China's business. It's what they want to do. China doesn't require permission from the US to go in and conquer your country. Who cares if they do?

On what basis would you argue otherwise?

No. Don't answer that. I'm fed up with the foolishness that's soaked this thread.

There's a big difference between a country invading another country, and you trying to have moral authority over another person's personal life choice. You could just as easily live your life, following your religion day by day, following God's laws yourself (as it's your religion) and let gay people have the freedom to make their own personal choice to not follow God's laws.

America's never been a Christian nation. The Constitution of the United States contains a view that is quite clearly classically liberal; all men are equal under it.

 

[Sirk]

The point is, you people choose to believe it. You people choose to follow it. Other people don't. It's a personal commitment. If I decide to become a Buddhist, should I all-of-a-sudden demand that everybody in Ireland abstain from meat, meditate several hours a day, and live a life of abstinence?

No, I should practice my religion with awareness that it is my religion, my choice, and my commitment. It's about your personal relationship with God, right? You choose to follow the laws of the bible. You choose to believe in a creator God. You make a covenant with God, you swear him an oath. But it's your oath, not mine.

You have a very skewed view of Christianity.....there are no rules except to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. You make it into rote activity when it is a relationship...not a check list.

 

[Omni]

You have a very skewed view of Christianity.....there are no rules except to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. You make it into rote activity when it is a relationship...not a check list.

I totally refuse to let your commitment to God become my commitment to God. You have a personal relationship with him (that's your business), but other people don't want to have one, and you need to realize that it's their natural right to make that decision for themselves.

An irreligious person is every bit as much a valid American Citizen as a religious one.

 

[Omni]

You are certainly correct.But this is what the poster said...

It is, indeed, difficult to accept gay marriage. But then I come back to the idea that it is good for a person to love another person--good for both health and happiness. For society, it is better if people live in loving committed relationships. It makes for a more stable society. My limitations should not stand in the way of others' happiness.


The Bible doesnt agree with this.Im assuming the poster is talking about the Christian view.People outside the church will do what they do but we dont agree with it.We dont agree that "its good for a person to love another person" so its ok to be gay. We disagree with that view because the Bible disagrees with that view.

The bible asks individuals to come to God and have a personal relationship with him. Nowhere does it say that the people who have a relationship with him, must force other people to be a part of that relationship. That's the point.

If people want to be in loving gay relationships, well, they aren't forcing you to be. You can still be straight. You can go out and find a gentle, kind, Christian man and marry him. You can live both your lives by God's instructions (not stealing, not murdering, not coveting, not worshiping other gods, not committing adultery, etc). That's your choice, and nobody wants to take that choice away from you. They only want you to stop trying to take it away from others.

 

[Sirk]

I totally refuse to let your commitment to God become my commitment to God. You have a personal relationship with him (that's your business), but other people don't want to have one, and you need to realize that it's their natural right to make that decision for themselves.

An irreligious person is every bit as much a valid American Citizen as a religious one.

When did I say they weren't and when did I say you do? The problem is that people like you are all about freedom and blah blah blah until it comes to Christians. It's then they turn into bloodthirsty mini despots who fail to see the irony of their own hatred and bigotry.

 

[Omni]

When did I say they weren't and when did I say you do? The problem is that people like you are all about freedom and blah blah blah until it comes to Christians. It's then they turn into bloodthirsty mini despots who fail to see the irony of their own hatred and bigotry.

Here's the thing, I haven't said anything in this entire thread that would logically lead to the conclusion "you have a despotic attitude towards Christianity". I fully support your right to follow God's instructions in your own life, but I also fully support other peoples' rights to not follow God's instructions in theirs. I believe in fairness. I don't want to take away your right to choose whether or not to live your life by Christian values, I just want you to stop trying to take away everybody else's right to choose whether or not they'll live by Christian values.

Two people in an adult, consensual, gay relationship, doesn't take away from your right to be Christian, whatsoever.

 

[maxwel]

There's a big difference between a country invading another country, and you trying to have moral authority over another person's personal life choice. You could just as easily live your life, following your religion day by day, following God's laws yourself (as it's your religion) and let gay people have the freedom to make their own personal choice to not follow God's laws.

America's never been a Christian nation. The Constitution of the United States contains a view that is quite clearly classically liberal; all men are equal under it.

All laws are based on SOMEONE taking moral authority, and defining other people's choices.

ALL LAWS.

It's only a matter of "who" is imposing that moral authority.

Atheists will talk all day about how "moral" they are... but as soon as you bring up the law, they will suddenly backstep, and suddenly pretend they don't have any particular morals. They will even act as if having morals is somehow "outdated" or "unevolved". But if you talk about injustice in the world, they'll suddenly have morals again, and talk all day about it.

So, when atheists act as if they have no particular moral beliefs, and they are NOT trying to impose their morals on others... it's all just nonsense.

In one breath they'll talk about how moral they are, and in the next breath they'll talk about how wrong it is to have morals or impose your morals on others, and in the next breath after that they'll tell you how laws should be changed to make things more "morally correct".

An atheist is just a walking sack of contradictions.

 

[Galahad]

There's a big difference between a country invading another country, and you trying to have moral authority over another person's personal life choice. You could just as easily live your life, following your religion day by day, following God's laws yourself (as it's your religion) and let gay people have the freedom to make their own personal choice to not follow God's laws.

America's never been a Christian nation. The Constitution of the United States contains a view that is quite clearly classically liberal; all men are equal under it.

All men are equal? Where did you get that?

Never been a Christian nation. It's one nation UNDER GOD. IN GOD WE TRUST. Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but truth, SO HELP YOU GOD? Christian churches dominated the land. You study the history. Who came over and founded this nation? Muslims? Atheists? What's that?

Christianity has been part of this nation since its founding.

You miss the point about the homosexual issue. The clerk did not want her name, herself, to be tied to, to associated to that which authorizes sin!
It was her choice not to sign the paper that allows for what she knows to be sin. It's like when a man says, I don't want to go fight for Ireland and help save them from communist China. Guess what? He don't have to go. It's against his religion. The clerk should have the same right. She should. She did not sign up for signing homosexual marriage certificates.

This is not about Christians jailing homosexuals because they are homosexuals.

There's so much ignorance in your position.

Again, if the communist leaders want to go in and conquer Ireland, that's their personal choice. Who are we to stop them?

But again, this is not about arresting homosexuals a putting them in prison.

 

[Omni]

All laws are based on SOMEONE taking moral authority, and defining other people's choices.

ALL LAWS.

It's only a matter of "who" is imposing that moral authority.

Atheists will talk all day about how "moral" they are... but as soon as you bring up the law, they will suddenly backstep, and suddenly pretend they don't have any particular morals. They will even act as if having morals is somehow "outdated" or "unevolved". But if you talk about injustice in the world, they'll suddenly have morals again, and talk all day about it.

So, when atheists act as if they have no particular moral beliefs, and they are NOT trying to impose their morals on others... it's all just nonsense.

In one breath they'll talk about how moral they are, and in the next breath they'll talk about how wrong it is to have morals or impose your morals on others, and in the next breath after that they'll tell you how laws should be changed to make things more "morally correct".

An atheist is just a walking sack of contradictions.

Does a couple being homosexual, and married, take away your ability to live your life within the moral boundaries you have promised God that you'll live within? Do a homosexual married couple going about their lives, make you unable to be faithful to your spouse?

Do they make you unable to worship no other gods but YHWH?
Do they make you unable to refrain from stealing?
Do they make you unable to refrain from murder?
Do they make you unable to honour your mother and father?
Do they make you unable to keep the Sabbath day?
Do they make you unable to refrain from lying?
Do they make you unable to refrain from covetousness?
Do they make you unable to refrain from taking God's name in vain?
Do they make you unable to refrain from having sex with another man?
Do they make you unable to refrain from bestiality?
Do they make you unable to stay faithful to your spouse?
Do they make you unable to refrain from incest?
Do they make you unable to refrain from consuming human blood?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating meat and dairy?
Do they make you unable to utilize your right to preach?
Do they make you unable to open a church?
Do they make you unable to pray?
Do they make you unable to socialize with other Christians?
Do they make you unable to marry one woman?
Do they make you unable to refrain from sacrificing anything with yeast or honey?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating pork?

I'm sure you get the point. There is nothing about two people being in a consensual gay marriage that stops you from being able to be a Christian, in any way whatsoever. The only way in which it places any limits on your behaviour, is when you try to force your Christian rules onto those people. As per the law, those people have a right to make their own choices about their own way of life, so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. And two people being gay, married, and living in a house, leading their lives, does not harm you.

That's the kicker, really.

 

[Galahad]

Omni! Knock knock. Are you there?

Where in all the land did you get "All men are equal under it"? For crying out loud. Where? Who told you that?

 

[Omni]

Omni! Knock knock. Are you there?

Where in all the land did you get "All men are equal under it"? For crying out loud. Where? Who told you that?

Abraham Lincoln did.

 

[jamie26301]

Actually, Jesus never demanded that anybody follow him. He never forced anybody to walk his walk. He called for people who had a desire to follow, and he asked his disciples to go out and find such people, but he never, ever, told any of his disciples to force themselves on anybody.

When the rich man turned, sad becuase of his many possessions, Jesus didn't try to talk him into otherwise.
When the mulitudes stopped walking with Him, did He turn around and threaten them, or try to persuade them?
When the disciples QUOTED SCRIPTURE (work of a prophet) with an inquiry as to call destruction upon a city that rejected Him, what did He say? "You do not know what you ask." He turned the focus back on them. "Are YOU ready to be faithful, as you feel these should be punished for not accepting Me?"

 

[maxwel]

Does a couple being homosexual, and married, take away your ability to live your life within the moral boundaries you have promised God that you'll live within? Do a homosexual married couple going about their lives, make you unable to be faithful to your spouse?

Do they make you unable to worship no other gods but YHWH?
Do they make you unable to refrain from stealing?
Do they make you unable to refrain from murder?
Do they make you unable to honour your mother and father?
Do they make you unable to keep the Sabbath day?
Do they make you unable to refrain from lying?
Do they make you unable to refrain from covetousness?
Do they make you unable to refrain from taking God's name in vain?
Do they make you unable to refrain from having sex with another man?
Do they make you unable to refrain from bestiality?
Do they make you unable to stay faithful to your spouse?
Do they make you unable to refrain from incest?
Do they make you unable to refrain from consuming human blood?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating meat and dairy?
Do they make you unable to utilize your right to preach?
Do they make you unable to open a church?
Do they make you unable to pray?
Do they make you unable to socialize with other Christians?
Do they make you unable to marry one woman?
Do they make you unable to refrain from sacrificing anything with yeast or honey?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating pork?

I'm sure you get the point. There is nothing about two people being in a consensual gay marriage that stops you from being able to be a Christian, in any way whatsoever. The only way in which it places any limits on your behaviour, is when you try to force your Christian rules onto those people. As per the law, those people have a right to make their own choices about their own way of life, so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. And two people being gay, married, and living in a house, leading their lives, does not harm you.

That's the kicker, really.

Wow.

You seem really upset about this.

Are you currently in a gay marriage?
Is it personal?
Is that why you're so upset?

 

[Galahad]

Does a couple being homosexual, and married, take away your ability to live your life within the moral boundaries you have promised God that you'll live within? Do a homosexual married couple going about their lives, make you unable to be faithful to your spouse?

Do they make you unable to worship no other gods but YHWH?
Do they make you unable to refrain from stealing?
Do they make you unable to refrain from murder?
Do they make you unable to honour your mother and father?
Do they make you unable to keep the Sabbath day?
Do they make you unable to refrain from lying?
Do they make you unable to refrain from covetousness?
Do they make you unable to refrain from taking God's name in vain?
Do they make you unable to refrain from having sex with another man?
Do they make you unable to refrain from bestiality?
Do they make you unable to stay faithful to your spouse?
Do they make you unable to refrain from incest?
Do they make you unable to refrain from consuming human blood?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating meat and dairy?
Do they make you unable to utilize your right to preach?
Do they make you unable to open a church?
Do they make you unable to pray?
Do they make you unable to socialize with other Christians?
Do they make you unable to marry one woman?
Do they make you unable to refrain from sacrificing anything with yeast or honey?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating pork?

I'm sure you get the point. There is nothing about two people being in a consensual gay marriage that stops you from being able to be a Christian, in any way whatsoever. The only way in which it places any limits on your behaviour, is when you try to force your Christian rules onto those people. As per the law, those people have a right to make their own choices about their own way of life, so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. And two people being gay, married, and living in a house, leading their lives, does not harm you.

That's the kicker, really.

Now are you sure you want to retain those questions? Are you absolutely sure? I've got an answer. Guess what? It's from the bible. I know the questions aren't addressed to me, but I'm ready.

But again, you misrepresent the issue and the point of the issue.

 

[jamie26301]

Wow.

You seem really upset about this.

Are you currently in a gay marriage?
Is it personal?
Is that why you're so upset?

Why do you ASSUME he's upset? Is being able to thoroughly explain the faulty reasoning in an argument obsession? Why don't you simply answer?

 

[Omni]

Wow.

You seem really upset about this.

Are you currently in a gay marriage?
Is it personal?
Is that why you're so upset?

The fact that you've attempted to discredit my points by turning this discussion toward me and my emotions, shows me that you don't have an effective rebuttal to my points; it illustrates how right they are.

 

[Galahad]

Does a couple being homosexual, and married, take away your ability to live your life within the moral boundaries you have promised God that you'll live within? Do a homosexual married couple going about their lives, make you unable to be faithful to your spouse?

Do they make you unable to worship no other gods but YHWH?
Do they make you unable to refrain from stealing?
Do they make you unable to refrain from murder?
Do they make you unable to honour your mother and father?
Do they make you unable to keep the Sabbath day?
Do they make you unable to refrain from lying?
Do they make you unable to refrain from covetousness?
Do they make you unable to refrain from taking God's name in vain?
Do they make you unable to refrain from having sex with another man?
Do they make you unable to refrain from bestiality?
Do they make you unable to stay faithful to your spouse?
Do they make you unable to refrain from incest?
Do they make you unable to refrain from consuming human blood?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating meat and dairy?
Do they make you unable to utilize your right to preach?
Do they make you unable to open a church?
Do they make you unable to pray?
Do they make you unable to socialize with other Christians?
Do they make you unable to marry one woman?
Do they make you unable to refrain from sacrificing anything with yeast or honey?
Do they make you unable to refrain from eating pork?

I'm sure you get the point. There is nothing about two people being in a consensual gay marriage that stops you from being able to be a Christian, in any way whatsoever. The only way in which it places any limits on your behaviour, is when you try to force your Christian rules onto those people. As per the law, those people have a right to make their own choices about their own way of life, so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. And two people being gay, married, and living in a house, leading their lives, does not harm you.

That's the kicker, really.

Omni, are you a keeper of the Law of Moses? I mean you talk about the Sabbath and not eating pork. If you are, well that explains everything.

If you can't understand that the Law was for Israel, how you going to understand the issue here in the States with Christians refusing to condone homosexual marriages? It just ain't going to happen.

Goodbye Omni. May you live sinlessly. May you offer plenty of rams, lambs, bulls, goats, birds, for your sins. But I don't think it will do much good.

Oh, wait. What's that? John the Baptist. He sees Jesus. Listen to John's words. "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world."

 

[maxwel]

The fact that you've attempted to discredit my points by turning this discussion toward me and my emotions, shows me that you don't have an effective rebuttal to my points; it illustrates how right they are.

So...
you're not upset, and you're not in a gay relationship?

 

[Omni]

Omni, are you a keeper of the Law of Moses? I mean you talk about the Sabbath and not eating pork. If you are, well that explains everything.

If you can't understand that the Law was for Israel, how you going to understand the issue here in the States with Christians refusing to condone homosexual marriages? It just ain't going to happen.

Goodbye Omni. May you live sinlessly. May you offer plenty of rams, lambs, bulls, goats, birds, for your sins. But I don't think it will do much good.

Oh, wait. What's that? John the Baptist. He sees Jesus. Listen to John's words. "Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world."

You're missing the point. Whether being Christian means putting your own personal faith in God or following laws is irrelevant to the point. The point remains the same -- two gay people in a consensual relationship don't stop you from being able to do it.