The Market Driven Church

[dcontroversal]

What does it say Jesus did? It says "He looked at him, and loved him."

He knew what that one particular man needed to hear, and he spoke it.... He did not lower the boom on him as so many of us seem to be proud to say we do.

I think your assuming much Willie....laying out the truth and speaking the truth is not lowering the boom on someone.....love and truth go hand in hand and the point is clear...Jesus did not follow after him smoozing him with that love....he laid out the truth and the guy rejected and walked away LOST!

 

[Willie-T]

No I was clear with what I said...sorry if you cant accept it.....the woman taken in adultery was extended mercy because the Jews were breaking the law in condemning her to death in two different ways...and that example has nothing to do with assembly capacity worship and the charge given to pastors to preach the word and let God deal with the people!

The first part is laughable, and you might want to try last part that again. YOU and I were given that commission... NOT told to lay it on a man whose job it is to TEACH us from that pulpit, to go out and take the gospel to others.

 

[pottersclay]

I have a friend of mine ..a pastor by the name of Gayle Erwin he has some videos on you tube called the nature of jesus....he is very humorous but very real.....Be blessed.

Now as far as the remodeling of these churches what ever it takes to get people through that door, hey go for it, I pray that sound doctrine is taught to keep them there that's all.

 

[Willie-T]

Well, I guess you guys won't listen to me. So you go ahead and run them off, and I will welcome them back next week, and the next (if I don't know where to find them) until they hopefully are ready to listen.

You guys must be SO different from me. It took good people being friends to me. I wasn't like you, walked through the door and get told to turn or burn... or get out. And that often IS the way most of the people you wash your hands of react. It's not them rejecting Jesus, it's really you, in their eyes, who turned them off and judged them. I just don't see this as Jesus' way.

 

[dcontroversal]

The first part is laughable, and you might want to try last part that again. YOU and I were given that commission... NOT told to lay it on a man whose job it is to TEACH us from that pulpit, to go out and take the gospel to others.

What is so funny about it....? I made a clear comment about the rich young ruler and you twisted it to the woman taken in adultery and my comments about her are biblically founded so do tell why it is (laughable) and as far as the second part....the context of the whole op is assembly capacity worship and how it has been turned into a numbers, money scheme....and who said I don't witness friend....how many have you reached WILLIE? I have taught at, filled in at, preached at, preached revivals at some 28 churches and church camps, been on the radio, cable T.V., internet, written a book which you are reading and testified to probably 250,000 plus.....so...Before you judge my application of the commission friend why not ask me first before you make comments like you have made....

Now having said that...you have no idea how I deal with lost people who are ignorant of the truth as opposed to someone who claims salvation and knows better.....without a doubt we are to love the sinners and approach them in a manner befitting a godly love........at the same time....those who sin rebuke before all.....which is biblical

I know this sounds full of heat, but it is not I can assure you as I actually like you and know that we are on the same page concerning many things!

 

[Willie-T]

What is so funny about it....? I made a clear comment about the rich young ruler and you twisted it to the woman taken in adultery and my comments about her are biblically founded so do tell why it is (laughable) and as far as the second part....the context of the whole op is assembly capacity worship and how it has been turned into a numbers, money scheme....and who said I don't witness friend....how many have you reached WILLIE? I have taught at, filled in at, preached at, preached revivals at some 28 churches and church camps, been on the radio, cable T.V., internet, written a book which you are reading and testified to probably 250,000 plus.....so...Before you judge my application of the commission friend why not ask me first before you make comments like you have made....

Now having said that...you have no idea how I deal with lost people who are ignorant of the truth as opposed to someone who claims salvation and knows better.....without a doubt we are to love the sinners and approach them in a manner befitting a godly love........at the same time....those who sin rebuke before all.....which is biblical

I know this sounds full of heat, but it is not I can assure you as I actually like you and know that we are on the same page concerning many things!

That's nice, but I just went by what you said..... that you, in all your wisdom, told them everything they needed to know in that few minutes they were at your church, and if they didn't accept your message, then it was on their heads. That is just about what you said, right?

 

[dcontroversal]

That's nice, but I just went by what you said..... that you, in all your wisdom, told them everything they needed to know in that few minutes they were at your church, and if they didn't accept your message, then it was on their heads. That is just about what you said, right?

No what I said or implied is found in the following....

1. It is not my place to convict anyone...that is God's responsibility
2. We are commanded to preach and let the word fall where it falls
3. No where are we commanded to coddle someone with the truth and or smooze them into belief
4. We are not commanded to follow after them and beg them to embrace the truth
5. There is a difference in dealing with a lost man and a church member
6. Jesus didn't follow after people begging them to embrace the truth
7. 3 score's comment about Jesus was biblical
8. My comments about the rich young ruler and the woman caught in adultery were biblical
9. Love and truth go hand in hand...just because the truth is hard does not mean that love is not present
10. You assume that Dayle and I beat lost people over the head with the bible

and a few other things of like caliber and order.....

and lastly.....no matter who teaches, preaches, witnesses...the responsibility of a response to the truth lies with the one that is hearing the message...it is on their own head and the one speaking the word is free from their blood.....

a. Enter into a house and if they receive you let your peace be upon that house...if not...leave and shake the dust off your feet
b. Same with entire cities....
c. Cast not your pearls before swine

If they are receptive then by all means work with them...if not...move on to someone else and don't waste God's time!

 

[purpose]

Sound Docrtine and Truthful Biblical teachings are Hard to come by anymore. At one time i was a listener of Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen. And from my research on them and many more in my reflection, i would not buy another book or watch another sermon on them. This as a believer in Jesus Christ and so much more. ( You could say im still drinking milk) , was shocked. Now im not sure excatly where this conversation coming from nor where it is going.? As for me the Love of God and Truth do go hand - hand. I surely do not want to listen to one who makes things up and throws a biblical nugget in there once in awhile to make one feel good. Collect money and so forth. did this start out as a marketing ? of some sort? Did Jesus himself show anger and turn tables in bible when saying you turned my fathers house of prayer to Bascicaly making money?

 

[crossnote]

What does it say Jesus did? It says "He looked at him, and loved him."

He knew what that one particular man needed to hear, and he spoke it.... He did not lower the boom on him as so many of us seem to be proud to say we do.

Jesus did lower the boom on him by telling him to sell all he had...

Mark 10:21-22 KJV
[21] Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. [22] And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

imagine that being said in a seeker sensitive church today.

 

[shotgunner]

The attitude is what's important here. The heart of God is that he isn't willing that any should perish. When the rich young ruler walked away Jesus didn't just say to blank with you if you don't accept what I have to say. Tell people truth in love. Don't forget the love part.

 

[pottersclay]

The gospel has power in it to pierce the hearts of men,to convict a troubled soul,
And to bring truth to a confused mind.

The gospel is not the new testament preached but, it is the good news of the new testament.
It is that Jesus came, died for all, raised on the third day, and is now seated at the right hand of the father,
Make no mistake that gospel message has power from on high.
You can share the stories of the gospels but that is not preaching the gospel.
The gospel or good news is jesus, came,died for all, rose, for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[crossnote]

The attitude is what's important here. The heart of God is that he isn't willing that any should perish. When the rich young ruler walked away Jesus didn't just say to blank with you if you don't accept what I have to say. Tell people truth in love. Don't forget the love part.

The point is Jesus didn't sugar coat or tailor His message to attract the individual. His words pierced the man's heart exposing his idol.
Much of today's preaching does it's best to not offend.

 

[ladylynn]

Amen, the Gospel is THE Good news, the best news . Why do Christians expect unbelievers to act like redeemed people?? It's been said many times and it bares/bears repeating., first you have to catch the fish before you attempt to clean them. Amen and Thank You Jesus!!

Oh, and God bless sister Joyce and brother Joel.

 

[Galahad]

Pardon me, did you say, "the woman caught in adultery?"

There's a word Jesus used that the market church would not use. His words to her: "Go and SIN no more."

Did someone say SIN! That woman has enough problems. She don't need to hear that. We don't use such negative language here.

 

[Galahad]

There's a word Jesus used that the market church would not use. His words to her: "Go and SIN no more."

Did someone say SIN! That woman has enough problems. She don't need to hear that. We don't use such negative language here.

Watch the fumbling here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOG7-PYqNvU&feature=player_embedded

 

[Galahad]

There's been a move in recent years toward making the church seeker friendly and non-confrontational. Some of the largest churches in the country have been built with principles that came from Madison Avenue rather than the Bible. Basically the idea is "give them what they want and they'll come back for more". Demographic analysis helps the church leadership to determine consumer demands and the church services and events are designed accordingly. What do you guys think about this approach?

Truth should never be abandoned.
We should always preach and teach the truth in love.

From what I've seen and heard, these market churches are primarily interested in attracting large numbers of people. The auditoriums are equipped with stages large enough for entertainment. Entertainment, leave that to Hollywood.
From the stage to the lighting to the show to the lack of bible teaching, the market church seeks to gain numbers. The easiest, fastest, and sure way to do that is to abandon truth.

Pure entertainment.

 

[Galahad]

Amen, the Gospel is THE Good news, the best news . Why do Christians expect unbelievers to act like redeemed people?? It's been said many times and it bares/bears repeating., first you have to catch the fish before you attempt to clean them. Amen and Thank You Jesus!!

Oh, and God bless sister Joyce and brother Joel.

Lady, many market churches are failing to teach the truth.

The problem is not with what is expected by some individual Christians from those who are not Christians, but rather, what the market church does not present to its members.

I've listened to plenty market church leaders shun the truth. Why? Because a great many of their members are practicing willfully that which the bible condemns. These are members, regular attendees at the churches. Have they heard the leaders preach against sin? No. They in fact feel welcomed as they go about living in rebellion against God.

I'm a Christian. I disagree with the market church tactics. Even so, I don't expect unbelievers to act like believers.
On the other hand, I do expect bible believing churches to preach and teach the truth to its congregants. r

Paul said Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16.
The market church says let's not even dare to do say or do that which might cause anger or displeasure in our members with what we teach.

Paul's command to Timothy, Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 2 Timothy 2:4.

Reprove. Rebuke. Exhort. That's not being done by many mega and market churches.
If they ever do come around to obeying that command, they should do so with all longsuffering. Patience and Love.

 

[Galahad]

I have a friend of mine ..a pastor by the name of Gayle Erwin he has some videos on you tube called the nature of jesus....he is very humorous but very real.....Be blessed.

Now as far as the remodeling of these churches what ever it takes to get people through that door, hey go for it, I pray that sound doctrine is taught to keep them there that's all.

The market churches are facing a challenge. They've done all the remodeling. All the entertainment. Problem is that eventually wears away. People will get bored. Same old same old. What then?

Time will come when mans' method of attracting crowds will collapse. And when it does, a handful, that small group of every church, like the faithful remnant of the Old Testament, will remain. And they'll be left standing in the dust abandoned by all the others. But they'll have learned that deviating from God's method of growth leads to failure.

What happens when the members want more and new and different? What does the church do?
That depends on what its goal is. If it is seeking favor of men, it changes the entertainment up dramatically. If it comes around and seeks the approval of God, it begins to preach and teach the truth with love.

The sower sowed the seed...

 

[Lancelot]

Watch the fumbling here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOG7-PYqNvU&feature=player_embedded

Hey Galahad. How's Camelot?

As for Joel Osteen, many people don't know that he was never expected to be in the ministry. His dad was a megachurch pastor for many years and Joel ran the TV ministry after studying broadcasting at Oral Roberts University. When his dad died suddenly there was nobody lined up to take over, so they turned to Joel and the rest is history. He has done an incredible job taking that church from about 6,000 to over 40,000 members. The drawback though, is that Joel had no seminary training and is weak in the theology department. Hopefully he will develop in that area over time.

 

[Willie-T]

Sound Docrtine and Truthful Biblical teachings are Hard to come by anymore. At one time i was a listener of Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen. And from my research on them and many more in my reflection, i would not buy another book or watch another sermon on them. This as a believer in Jesus Christ and so much more. ( You could say im still drinking milk) , was shocked. Now im not sure excatly where this conversation coming from nor where it is going.? As for me the Love of God and Truth do go hand - hand. I surely do not want to listen to one who makes things up and throws a biblical nugget in there once in awhile to make one feel good. Collect money and so forth. did this start out as a marketing ? of some sort? Did Jesus himself show anger and turn tables in bible when saying you turned my fathers house of prayer to Bascicaly making money?

Yet, which brought YOU to Salvation... a message of turn or burn, or the teaching of Jesus' love?