God did away with some of His own sayings

[gb9]

1. No to your first question, because willful disobedience confirms salvation wasn't there in the first place. In addition, if a person is truly saved they will do all they can to obey the commandments (spiritually) and endeavor to find out where they are falling short because of the love of God in their heart. So in both cases, the answer is no.

2. Same answer as 1. Spiritual people, grounded in faith will not look at the physical before the spiritual. Just the opposite, but not to neglect the physical even so. Anything else is hypocritical as Jesus' following words to the Pharisees confirm.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23

3. Answer to a question you didn't ask. We wouldn't be concerned (deep in our own heart) about the physical ramifications if we were secure in Spirit. With that said, a spiritual man or woman knows they fall short all the time, like the more I find out about God's word, the more I realize how little I really know. That isn't a hindrance, but certainly not an excuse to not study the word of God to find out the truth with all diligence. The Spirit and the Word of God ALWAYS work together without fail. They CANNOT be separated.

If we look at these things with a necessity on our part to work it out, then we are relying more on ourselves than God. Faith without works is just as dead as works without faith.

you were o.k. up to here. eating pork has nothing to do with our salvation. wrong. wrong. wrong. Jesus said that NOTHING that enters a man defiles a man. also Acts 10, Peter's house top vision. maybe I mis-read or mis-understood but if you are saying that we have to follow O.T. dietitary laws that is a flat-out lie.

 

[atwhatcost]

sadly, I doubt it will ever make sense to you.

1. You claimed I have insinuated we do not need to obey God, and acted like a kid when I called you out on it (by the way, do you have any proof I ever claimed that?
2. I basically stated what Paul said to a gentile church in the galatian area, and you asked if I was jewish. and then said I need to re-read what I posted then I will see why.

so how do you expect me to take you serious when you do things like this?

Okay, please understand we may never play nice together. This isn't about that.

Please understand, as angry as I get with you sometimes, I don't think that means you're not saved or a believer. This isn't about that.

And you do like to talk a lot. So do I, so that's not the problem.

And you probably haven't noticed what's going on yet, to get what I'm about to ask of you, so I'm not angry you responded to BarlyGurl.

May I ask one thing for now? Not to change you at all, but to hopefully keep this conversation going on between Ben and Just-Me? Could you wait to see this conversation end, before going back to doing what so many have been doing all along? We've got a real live trying-to-understand-each-other dialog going, and all these asides (including this one lol) is distracting that. I'd like to see this debate going on so we can all learn what Just-Me believes.

Mind doing that one thing? And then we're free to go back at each other's throats.

Deal?

 

[atwhatcost]

you were o.k. up to here. eating pork has nothing to do with our salvation. wrong. wrong. wrong. Jesus said that NOTHING that enters a man defiles a man. also Acts 10, Peter's house top vision. maybe I mis-read or mis-understood but if you are saying that we have to follow O.T. dietitary laws that is a flat-out lie.

Same deal for you I hope. I admit, I have a big question (I think I had a smaller one earlier, but insomnia, so my brain doesn't even remember what it was lol) on what Just-Me says, but I'm holding back. I'm holding back because Ben is asking all the right questions, so I suspect he'll ask that one too.

Can we stay quiet just until the end of this dialog between Just and Ben? And then, at the end, if some of our questions never get answered, we can go back and ask to get answers.

What I'm seeing here is Just being bombarded by so many. Frankly, if I were Just I'd be yanking out my hair, screaming, running out the front door and down the street, all on that same lung-full-of-scream. It's got to be taxing to answer everyone.

Can't we just trust Ben for now to ask what we're thinking? And then, when he's satisfied, but we're still not, then we're free to ask.

Seem reasonable? Give both of these men to talk.

Added, so I don't repeat this every time. (I'm OCD enough to do that lol) this goes for everyone that has questions. Not saying don't ask. I'm asking if we can hold off asking, just in case Ben asks for us.

 

[just-me]

you were o.k. up to here. eating pork has nothing to do with our salvation. wrong. wrong. wrong. Jesus said that NOTHING that enters a man defiles a man. also Acts 10, Peter's house top vision. maybe I mis-read or mis-understood but if you are saying that we have to follow O.T. dietitary laws that is a flat-out lie.

NO means it has no sway on salvation. Read what I say and then think about it for a time taking into consideration what the question was. This is what I wrote "2. Same answer as 1. Spiritual people, grounded in faith will not look at the physical before the spiritual.

 

[just-me]

OK let me clear the air some. This is a personal witness, but I give glory to God only. The capability is His. This is a song I arranged by memory from my childhood. I just did it on a simple $60 computer music program. The song is my personal feelings and testimony of Christ Jesus. Listen and read how wonderful He is to me. Then you might better understand my faith in Him and what I am writing in explanation. This is certainly not to brag by ANY MEANS! It's generic to a certain extent according to the world's standards. Before He saved me, my attitude was that of a drunken killer, fresh out of Viet Nam 45 years ago.
[video=youtube;rAnqZ38ZSic]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAnqZ38ZSic[/video]

 

[BenFTW]

1. No to your first question, because willful disobedience confirms salvation wasn't there in the first place. In addition, if a person is truly saved they will do all they can to obey the commandments (spiritually) and endeavor to find out where they are falling short because of the love of God in their heart. So in both cases, the answer is no.

2. Same answer as 1. Spiritual people, grounded in faith will not look at the physical before the spiritual. Just the opposite, but not to neglect the physical even so. Anything else is hypocritical as Jesus' following words to the Pharisees confirm.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matthew 23:23

3. Answer to a question you didn't ask. We wouldn't be concerned (deep in our own heart) about the physical ramifications if we were secure in Spirit. With that said, a spiritual man or woman knows they fall short all the time, like the more I find out about God's word, the more I realize how little I really know. That isn't a hindrance, but certainly not an excuse to not study the word of God to find out the truth with all diligence. The Spirit and the Word of God ALWAYS work together without fail. They CANNOT be separated.

If we look at these things with a necessity on our part to work it out, then we are relying more on ourselves than God. Faith without works is just as dead as works without faith.

On point one, in your address, am I to conclude that you are saying that to not do the Law is willful disobedience? You say that such a person who doesn't(do the Law) is either one, someone who isn't saved to begin with, or two, not a possible reality for a true believer because they will seek to do the will of God and therefore a consequence of disobedience will not be the loss of salvation. Am I summarizing what you said accurately?

This is pivotal to our discussion. I see grace in what you are expressing, especially in the video you posted. I see that indeed Jesus is your savior. I seem to think that you are saying that we do the Law, not out of obligation but love. Is this your stance?

 

[just-me]

On point one, in your address, am I to conclude that you are saying that to not do the Law is willful disobedience?

I'll clear the air a little for you hopefully. I'll have to get into the Hebrew language some at this point to make myself clear. In spirit, my answer is Yes to your highlighted question. However, "Doing the law" can easily be mistaken for works without faith for the purpose of self righteousness in one's own eyes. (HYPOCRITE!) LOL
Commanded (tsavah)a message given to constitute order.(צָוָה) commandment meaning “The empowerment risen significantly”

Speech(tsavach)to show or feel a lively or triumphant joy; rejoice exceedingly; be highly elated or jubilant: (צָוַח)

Law = (תּוֹרָה)=Torah being the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 5 books in the Bible.

As you can see in the original language, "command" and "law" are spelled completely different. Therefore as you are viewing the above you can see that "speech" is the same as "commanded." As I said previously, God's spoken words are not to be neglected.

“commandments” ( דָּבָר )1697 dabar daw-bawr' and “speak” (דָּבַר )1696 dabar daw-bar' are the same describing The Doorway that leads to the family/kingdom of God witnessed from the beginning. (John 3:10) (Galatians 3:24-25)

Commandments are a word spoken by implication of a matter or thing, do to a cause that results in action, the giving of advice concerning an affair, that necessitates an answer, accompanied with an explanation.The character of the One speaking is defined with what is said. In essence, God's Name is His character that is not to be taken in vain.

You say that such a person who doesn't(do the Law) is either one, someone who isn't saved to begin with, or two, not a possible reality for a true believer because they will seek to do the will of God and therefore a consequence of disobedience will not be the loss of salvation. Am I summarizing what you said accurately?

Not quite, but I'm taking that into consideration. (smile) No problem at all. I have defined the difference between the Torah/Law, and commandments. Thy are inclusive but not exactly the same for definitions sake.

This is pivotal to our discussion. I see grace in what you are expressing, especially in the video you posted. I see that indeed Jesus is your savior. I seem to think that you are saying that we do the Law, not out of obligation but love. Is this your stance?

In summary, my answer is Yes, but the point is not "doing the law," it's observing God's commandments and reverencing all of them in spirit and in truth so as to effect our actions in the correct way.

I stress that to obey the law in the physical without spiritual understanding is vain. If a person is obedient to ALL of God's word (from the core of their heart), even though they cannot be very good at it, that desire proves faith in God. James 2:18

This statement of Jesus is defining the epitome of a hypocrite.
"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mark 7:9

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15
I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. John 8:28b

 

[KennethC]

Obedience to the law or to the promises?

Galatians 3:3, 5-7 (KJV)
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Obedience to the gospel, which includes Jesus teachings and commands !!!

Matthew 28:19-20 Lord Jesus final command was that in making disciples in all the nations we are told to obeserve/obey all He commanded us.

 

[KennethC]

Yes as was stated even by me. For Scripture outlines this, but it is where you stated "If they are doing this against you," that I am pointing out the Words insight.. I am not saying we as Christians don't act. On the contrary, I am calling us to act confidently under the right Spirit for the right reasons.

Which is why when you call them out and rebuke and reprove them you are to follow it up with the truth and exhortation and edifying.

To many want to just rebuke and reprove in a unedifying way and leave it at that.

Also what a person needs to look for when discussing the bible with others is are they using the Sword.
Meaning do they mention where in the bible they are getting there info from (book, chapter, scripture), and if they don't give those things I would tell others to be careful at taking what they say as truth !!!

 

[just-me]

You say that such a person who doesn't(do the Law) is either one, someone who isn't saved to begin with, or two, not a possible reality for a true believer because they will seek to do the will of God and therefore a consequence of disobedience will not be the loss of salvation. Am I summarizing what you said accurately?

Using grace as an excuse for rejecting certain parts of God's words/commandments have eventual negative consequences. If that person isn't disciplined, then they are not one of God's children according to the scriptures. If they are disciplined, that is a confirmation that they are. In any case God's commandments will be recognized according to the promises in... Romans 14:11 Isaiah 45:23

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:32

[SUP]"[/SUP]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Hebrews 12:6-8

 

[pottersclay]

And the spirit of the Lord prevails.

 

[just-me]

And the spirit of the Lord prevails.

Because "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" Acts 24:14

 

[BenFTW]

-snip-
In summary, my answer is Yes, but the point is not "doing the law," it's observing God's commandments and reverencing all of them in spirit and in truth so as to effect our actions in the correct way.
-snip-

What if I told you that observance to God's commandments from the Law in no way, shape or form could have the fruit of effecting our actions positively(and permanently) over the long term? What if following the Law actually stunted your sanctification, and actually works against you sinning less in your daily walk? What if I told you that observing the Law does not aid in sanctification? What if I told you the means to overcoming sin has nothing to do with observance to the Law but having to do with a renewal of your mind to who you now are in Jesus Christ?

Consider these questions as points to ponder, not to be answered one by one. My question to you, and in using your own words, is this. Is it God's grace and revelation of who we are in Jesus that "effects our actions in the correct way" or is it observance to the Law that does this? Does the scripture state that we awake to the Law and sin not? No, it says we "Awake to righteousness and sin not." So, I fail to see the correlation of observance to the commandments of God (the Law) and obedience to them as the means to a... victorious life, for if that was possible Jesus would not have needed to die and resurrect for us. The Israelites would've been righteous, surely, over the period of time they tried to obey the Law and were under it.

I know you aren't saying our righteousness comes from obedience to the Law, as you believe in saved by grace through faith. You understand our righteousness is imputed by Jesus Christ and we are justified in Him. However, I am referring to our righteousness in that of our daily conduct/living. What we are getting down to is sanctification, and so I suppose I could instead ask, "Do you believe the Law sanctifies the believer in his daily conduct?" I do not believe it does, nor can it and that sanctification is done as we renew our minds to the truth of who we are in Jesus and by the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[pottersclay]

so let's review what we have learned.
Why did God make the law?

 

[BarlyGurl]

so let's review what we have learned.
Why did God make the law?

God gave the law thru MOSES in Exodus to the people because they had just come out of BONDAGE of SLAVERY from EGYPT... the law was to INSTRUCT THEM on how to live pleasing lives before the LORD now that they were NO LONGER UNDER BONDAGE to please PHAROH.

....how is that???

 

[BenFTW]

God gave the law thru MOSES in Exodus to the people because they had just come of BONDAGE from EGYPT... the law was to INSTRUCT THEM on how to live pleasing lives before the LORD now that they were NO LONGER UNDER BONDAGE to please PHAROH.

....how is that???

The Law was given not because the Lord decided to do so but because the Israelites requested it through their boasting. They no longer wanted a relationship by grace but merit. They placed the Law upon themselves. They boasted that they could do all that the Lord required of them and so the Lord gave them what they wanted, of course in mind that it would bring them to an end of themself and lead them to their need for the savior, Jesus Christ. You know, His plan of reconciliation.

 

[ENLIGHTEND]

why are there ten commandments but 613 laws? wernt they all commandments. it would explain y moses was on the mountain 40 day and nights. another question same story. y did thejews, after seeing gods power decide to worship a golden calf? and aaron was in on it too. mosses own brother who spoke for moses? also. when moses did come down with the commandments one of them was don't kill. the first thing moses did was to order brother to kill brother and wife and so on?

 

[pottersclay]

Nice barlygurl and what did the children of Israel do with the law?

 

[BarlyGurl]

they rebelliously created all sorts of addendums to make an outward show of following the law.... whilst ignoring the law-giver.

 

[ENLIGHTEND]

really? all they did was complain the whole time they were going to the promised land.even moses got mad. instead of talking to the rock he hit it with his staff. moses or none of them got into the promised land but roamed the desert eating manna. what a deal they got