The Market Driven Church

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ladylynn said:
Oh Stephen63 show me something and tell me something I don't already know or heard from those sites about what they say of ol Joel O. I dislike those sites you posted because they exist solely for the purpose of finding fault with other Christians and bringing them doooowwwn. I listened to them and find them to still be as odious as before.

I've seen those clips and heard John MacGarther and Paul Washer before in their zeal to 'shed light' on Joel O. and his ministry.
The worst clip that Victoria O. has is the one where she says to do things for yourself. She could have said it much better but it's like forgiveness and we all have been told this. Forgiveness and bitterness is like drinking poison yourself and expecting others to get the effects. It's the person who is doing the un forgiveness who gets hurt ultimately more as he or she drinks the poison of it's effects. They are hurt every time. So forgiveness is something you are doing for yourself more than anyone else ultimately but as all of God's ways, they ALWAYS benefit us because He loves us so much. His ways are always the Best for all involved.

You can find in anyone's life where they could have and should have said it better but didn't and then you can play it over and over and over in your heard (or on the computer) until you can't stand to look at the person as they have done here on these sites you posted. Human beings do not have a hard time finding the ugly in anyone. It's finding the good as the Bible says we should that takes the extra mile. I stand by my previous post about how large churches are run.

I'd also like to add that for as long as we are alive, we will find good people who do not agree with us in our theology yet we can learn to do as the simple cows here on earth do., take the hay and leave the straw. There a tons of other Christians that I respect who do not speak in tongues or believe in healing under the new covenant. Yet for whatever reason, that is where they are right now and I can still appreciate and encourage their ministry like Ravi Zacharias who excels in his God given talent as a teacher and communicator in apologetic's.

But we each have to come to those convictions ourselves as the HolySpirit leads. I've been led to not do as you and many do by condemning the Joel Olstiens in the family but to take into consideration what the Bible says "to love one another as I have loved you" very seriously.
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Like many others, I've questioned why God would let these false prophets run amok while they're leading millions away from Him. Then I read an article someone posted about the same thing. They said God told them it was the other way around. The false prophets & teachers were judgement upon those who were sinning in the church. They were to lead them away in the direction they were already going. Makes sense in light of the scripture:

2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they(undisciplined believers) will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NLT) [SUP]1 [/SUP]I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
 
Stephen63 said:
Like many others, I've questioned why God would let these false prophets run amok while they're leading millions away from Him. Then I read an article someone posted about the same thing. They said God told them it was the other way around. The false prophets & teachers were judgement upon those who were sinning in the church. They were to lead them away in the direction they were already going. Makes sense in light of the scripture:

2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NASB) [SUP]1 [/SUP]I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they(undisciplined believers) will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NLT) [SUP]1 [/SUP]I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
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It's so important to understand who we are and what we HAVE in Christ. All judgment has already been paid for and juded in the body of Jesus Christ for His church. He already gave up is life for her and paid the highest price by shedding His blood for her and she is no longer under any judgment. To say she is, is to say what Jesus did was not enough for her. A great word to know is "imputation"

We are the righteousness of God IN Christ. We have been made white and clean and the only thing we will be dealing with is the aspect of loss of rewards at the Bemis seat, .,to show the quality of our works.,will our works be burned as hay and stubble or to come out as gold? The works will be burned not the believer., not judgment for our sins since they have already been dealt with in the body of our Savior Jesus. Lawyers understand the principle of double jeopardy, we can't be judged for the same sin issue twice.
 
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ladylynn said:
It's so important to understand who we are and what we HAVE in Christ. All judgment has already been paid for and juded in the body of Jesus Christ for His church. He already gave up is life for her and paid the highest price by shedding His blood for her and she is no longer under any judgment. To say she is, is to say what Jesus did was not enough for her. A great word to know is "imputation"

We are the righteousness of God IN Christ. We have been made white and clean and the only thing we will be dealing with is the aspect of loss of rewards at the Bemis seat, .,to show the quality of our works.,will our works be burned as hay and stubble or to come out as gold? The works will be burned not the believer., not judgment for our sins since they have already been dealt with in the body of our Savior Jesus. Lawyers understand the principle of double jeopardy, we can't be judged for the same sin issue twice.
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That sounds pretty OSAS to me. The Bible declares the false prophets/teachers/preachers have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Double Jeopardy? We're talking about multiple sins, not the same one. That's not double jeopardy.
 
Stephen63 said:
That sounds pretty OSAS to me. The Bible declares the false prophets/teachers/preachers have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Double Jeopardy? We're talking about multiple sins, not the same one. That's not double jeopardy.
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Of course!! :) Once Jesus saves you and the Holy Spirit seals you, you are born again, a new creation forever in Him and no man can pluck you out of His hand. The false prophets and teachers are "false" so they are not saved prophets and teachers. They are unsaved and will have their part in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The sin problem was solved all at once by Jesus Christ. Our sin was IMPUTED to Jesus on the cross., and when we receive Him, His righteousness is IMPUTED to us. Just like in Adam all sin., in Christ all who receive Him are made righteous.,Once for all.
 
Any gathering bigger than about 20 people will end up scripturally dysfunctional. A Diotrephes will arise and take control! Every Time!
 
Yet said:
Any gathering bigger than about 20 people will end up scripturally dysfunctional. A Diotrephes will arise and take control! Every Time!
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Boy, Peter sure blew it when he preached, and grew that local church like he did. Certainly all of those 3,000 didn't stay in town, but it's fairly safe to bet that at least a hundred did. What a "dysfunctional" church they must have had, by your estimation.... (way over 20)
 
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