My Last Time of Dealing with "Disability/Illness is Unbelief" Posts

[ember]

I basically get kind of upset with threads on healing and the arguements. I have 'seen' God heal and I have seen Him 'not heal'

God is soverign no matter what some say...in the end, the very end, he is God and we are not

I have seen a demonic spirit have to let go and I have seen a demonic spirit keeping a firm grip

God knows why, I do not

I have seen quite a bit actually and I do not have any more ready and pat answers and my heart hurts because I know that sometimes when we think we get it, we really get it, we find out that, no, we do not get it at all

Sometimes God answers right away, sometimes you wait and sometimes years go by and you despair and throw out your Bible and you don't understand but you still look up because there is no other place to look

We wrestle with God just like Jacob and some of us limp when we walk away and I guess some throw away the crutches but we are individuals and it seems to me that God respects that fact more than Christians do

I, am an individual. I am also a part of the body of Christ. If one part of the body is wounded, doesn't the whole body hurt and be concerned?

Why is it that you so seldom see that outside the pages of the Bible?

 

[jamie26301]

It's certainly not an insensitivity to another believers suffering when brothers and sisters are believing God's word for healing.
It's believing God's word in the face of what our 5 senses are experiencing. It's being open hearted to the truth of God's will to heal in the face of horrible sickness and death on planet earth. I've also been made aware that being kept in mind of healing verses and repeating them and being around believers who also believe is vital. How can we endure such trials without the Word of God and His saints encouraging and spurring us on to victory in Jesus. Resisting the devil so he will flee., vital issues because again, if we are believing evil comes from God we will accept what comes as good Christians., and satan wins.

We have these things but we have yet to walk them out in our Christian experience. The Bible tells us to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.... this means to work OUT what Jesus died to PUT IN., in all seriousness and single mindedness. We work to rest.

No, the insensitivity is assuming something is wrong with one who has not been healed.
Is all I was saying. Good post.

 

[VioletReigns]

My family members have been miraculously healed over the years of many illnesses that were emotional, spiritual and physical. Praise the LORD! Some were instantaneously healed and with obvious supernatural power, and others were healed gradually and with a lot of prayer and fasting. But I have to admit, the circumstances where some are still suffering, those situations I keep giving to God, casting my cares on Him and trusting that He hears and is answering. I just cannot accept that He does not hear or will not answer. Because I know God is faithful by His very nature and all of His promises are true.

So I often wonder to myself, if someone requests prayer for healing, should we not also believe for their healing when we pray? I'm stuck there. I don't know the answer. I just know that when I'm praying for someone, I only look to Christ Jesus and what He says in His Word to us. I stand on that, ya know? I mean, if someone asks me to pray for them, I pray the way I'd want someone to pray for me with all their heart - with faith and with belief that Jesus hears and answers.

I know faith is the decree, the foundation, the very reality of Christ Jesus of all that we hope for and the evidence, the proof that we don't see is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. All is in Him because He's LORD of all. So I just won't let my mind rest in anything or anyone except Jesus Himself. I'm not going to look to the left or the right, I'm just gonna set my eyes on the LORD. I don't have the answers, but I know we have Him. So I don't have any other recourse but to trust Him.

 

[atwhatcost]

I've met several people who believe in "claiming for/believing for" healing as an absolute for God to give sick believers. I've been told similar things.

Sometimes it's not ignorance of Scripture so much as it is personal experience. They experienced healing of some sort, and since God is one who is absolute and treats all His children absolutely the same, because His word is absolute and applies absolutely to all people absolutely the same (so is how their argument comes off) then "He healed me, so I can speak for the Almighty and tell you that He'll heal you too... as long as you work the same formula I did, of course." And of course, if you don't get the same result they did, then the absolute opposite is lack of sufficient fatih. Cause God's word is black and white, you see.

It's such an extreme, insensitive form of boasting in one's faith.. when by faith boasting should be excluded, and that would pertain to any gift from God, healing as well as salvation, imo. In my experience, people who have experienced their interpretation personally, are usually very dogmatic and closed minded about it. They have been there, you can't tell them otherwise, cause God echos it Himself in such and such chapter and verse.

Absolutely! (lol It had to be said.)

Hubby and I are the thorn in their side. God healed me of two different things in miraculous ways. He hasn't yet healed me of this.

Hubby spent the night in the hospital after breaking his back. (Low enough that it didn't paralyze him, but bad enough that his doctor called him Quasimodo and he was in a back brace for nine months. It's 33 years later and, on good days that spot feels like someone is digging their knuckle into his back. On bad days, his whole body hurts.) His roommate was a man with gout so bad he was moaning in agony, making it hard for hubby to sleep. God told hubby to pray for the guy. After misinterpreting that for an hour, (hubby told the guy he would pray for him, went into the visitor's room to have a smoke and pray for the guy, but when he came back the guy was still in great pain. Then God told him, "No. I mean lay hands on him and pray for him." So hubby told the guy he had to lay hands on him, and the guy said, "I've been waiting for you to do that. lol), he laid hands on the guy and prayed. The guy went to sleep instant. Hubby could then sleep.

He woke up to the sounds of a man shouting up and down the hallway, "God healed me! God healed me!" Both men were sent home that day, but hubby still had a broken back.

We tend to confuse absoluteist. lol

God's definitely not a one-size-fits-all kind of god.

 

[atwhatcost]

i dont know where to start after learning that someone here was become a victim of a circumstances that we call sickness in the flesh.

if only i'd meet you before i could help you from your disability/illness.
i know someone who healed many people without taking money to anyone
specially to someone like you.
unfortunately he died last year.
because he was been tricked!!

someone put a money to a gift that is supposed to be given to him
by one of those many people he cured.
that gift was just a bread, sugar, coffe and some canfoods
for the patieny is very aeger to give him that gift which comes from
the heart of that person being cured by the one i knew before.

when he open the gift he saw their was money in there
the sworn promised was bein broken after that
``you accept the gift without involvedment of anything that
came from this world, share it to others without taking anything
especially if there is a money involved from the times of serving your people
but what is freely given to you (exept money) its up to you to consider
whether to accept it or not.

but please dont ever assume that he is a god
because from what i've learned, he was accused of impersonating god as himself
coz by juz pointing his finger on you, you will be instantly heal!

to see is to believed, and i im one of those who witness this!

after that experienced, i realised that you cant have it all
thats why i said before to sandy (also a member here) that
no one has recieved all the gift that was mentioned in
Matthew 10:8
“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. You have received without paying, give without being paid.

for each and everyone has recieved a single gift from the holy spirit
unique from one another.
so please remember this always

thank you very much :smoke:

Not to worry. I would never go to someone to be healed because they have power, instead of God has power. The healer was tricked so God killed him? Not the real God. And because there is so much superstition surrounding that healer, even had I known of him, I wouldn't have gone.

God is capable of healing me. God will heal me. Of that I have no doubt. I don't know if I get healed in this body or simply get the next body that is perfect and perfected, but God promised healing, so I know he will. I have experienced a bigger healing. He has healed my mind enough that I have no doubts. He is still healing it.

Better yet, he has brought life into my dead spirit -- his Spirit in me. Doesn't get better than that! Even better than chocolate and raspberries together. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

It is often difficult to hear something that goes against how we have learned to deal with life and suffering. It took time to come to terms with how you look and have decided to look at suffering in your life. But brother Shotgunner is showing you a far better way that says God is not the author of sickness and death., satan is the author of sickness and death,pain and misery and confusion. satan calls good evil and evil good., and wants us as believers to say it's from God. The Bible tells us to resist the devil. If we do not believe this illness is from him we will accept is as a "gift" from God and not resist it.

Many good sweet loving believers have and do take it as if from God and go about enduring it when it is a FOE to be prayed against with all diligence. God will not force us to take His truth if we are so determined to believe our own ways of coping. He just won't do it. No matter how awful we feel or how much the cancer seeps through our bodies.

Faith in God's will for our lives changes things and it's no wonder without faith it is impossible to please Him. God will not force anyone to change when He has already given us the message and we refuse to believe it because the world and experience and people around us show us differently. Sickness and death are all around us in the world. That is why Faith IS the victory for the Christian because it is what we believe Jesus did for us that will change our lives., If we do not believe it., our lives will not change. It's what we believe about the truth that will set us free. If the truth is not believed it will not change us.

I have decided just as brother Shotgunner to believe that sickness and death are issues that Jesus came to defeat for us. I see how Adam and Eve did not listen to God, but instead believed satan when he cast doubt on God's goodness and Adam and Eve fell for it hook line and sinker. We must resist the devil so he will flee. If we receive from him thinking we are receiving from God than we will suffer. We each have to make this choice in our lives as individuals.

We will all suffer in this life but not because God is causing us misery confusion and shame. It is sin the world and the devil that bring those things. In Christ we have the victory and enduring means believing regardless of what we see with our eyes and hear with our ears and feel with our minds. Hebrews 11:1 is our journey.,

NOW FAITH IS THE ASSURANCE (THE CONFIRMATION THE TITLE DEED) OF THE THINGS WE HOPE FOR BEING THE PROOF OF THINGS WE DO NOT SEE AND THE CONVICTION OF THEIR REALITY (FAITH PERCEIVING AS REAL FACT WHAT IS NOT REVEALED TO THE SENSES)

That is what we are called to and must work daily to rest in. Faith in Him is our calling.

Do I really want a lecture about faith from someone who has faith in an arrogant scammer? No, yet here you are again.

 

[atwhatcost]

My family members have been miraculously healed over the years of many illnesses that were emotional, spiritual and physical. Praise the LORD! Some were instantaneously healed and with obvious supernatural power, and others were healed gradually and with a lot of prayer and fasting. But I have to admit, the circumstances where some are still suffering, those situations I keep giving to God, casting my cares on Him and trusting that He hears and is answering. I just cannot accept that He does not hear or will not answer. Because I know God is faithful by His very nature and all of His promises are true.

So I often wonder to myself, if someone requests prayer for healing, should we not also believe for their healing when we pray? I'm stuck there. I don't know the answer. I just know that when I'm praying for someone, I only look to Christ Jesus and what He says in His Word to us. I stand on that, ya know? I mean, if someone asks me to pray for them, I pray the way I'd want someone to pray for me with all their heart - with faith and with belief that Jesus hears and answers.

I know faith is the decree, the foundation, the very reality of Christ Jesus of all that we hope for and the evidence, the proof that we don't see is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. All is in Him because He's LORD of all. So I just won't let my mind rest in anything or anyone except Jesus Himself. I'm not going to look to the left or the right, I'm just gonna set my eyes on the LORD. I don't have the answers, but I know we have Him. So I don't have any other recourse but to trust Him.

"Your kingdom come, you're will be done." That is what he asks us to pray. Is that also not the perfect answer no matter what we pray for?

Back when I first wrote this piece, the other shoe hadn't fallen yet. Little did I know God's will for hubby and me was we'd both end up disabled. I couldn't conceive he'd ever do that. It makes no earthly sense. And I had the biggest meltdown imaginable when it happened.

The meltdown/temper tantrum lasted three years, but it was a stalemate. God wouldn't change his mind, and I couldn't deny him after all I'd been through. (So absolutely obvious God is, I cannot will myself to stop believing that.) So what choice did I have but to come back, but then again how could I trust God again if he'd do that to the person I love the most?

Somehow he got a book into my mind. (I remember buying it when I saw it. I have no memories of what brought me to see it since I was very anti-social at the time, and it wasn't hubby -- who is the only person I was being social with. lol) When God Weeps! If anyone could figure out why God would make someone disabled, it would be Joni the woman who dove into water when she was a healthy Christian 17 year old and had to be dragged out moments later forever a quadriplegic. And she and her best friend Steve did just that for the next 6 months -- they searched the Bible for answers to that one.

God gave me the answer in that book. (The book is the answer received.) I saw it in the completely paralyzed man who suffered through the night while fire ants consumed his body. He felt every bite, yet couldn't move or call for help. That one story hit my heart the most because there is no other answer when we see what even believers live through. The answer is simple, but the book explains it better.

Some of us are stuck disabled or with long-term illnesses for one obvious reason -- because we are just thick headed enough to think we can do some things by ourselves, while all along God has to remind us we can do no good by ourselves. We need him -- every moment of every day.

The favored ones -- the slow-to-get-it ones -- are the ones he stops in our tracks to remind us of how much we need him even for our daily bread. I still think I get it.

Do you see why I don't just by that sentence? I'm still stupid enough to think I get it. lol

The day God gets that through to me will be the day I'm healed. That might be later today, tomorrow, next year, when I'm 95 or when I'm dead and let go of this body. But once I get I need God always, he has no purpose in needing to remind me of that constantly through this thorn in my waist.

He wants a constant relationship with me. He wants that because he loves me. I'm Hosea's adulterous wife, so he found a way to remind me where to keep my focus and whom to love always.

 

[MarcR]

Six days ago my husband died. The healing we saw was relationships within the family. Words of love said that healed hearts that needed those words. Even my husband healed of shame that he had carried for years. Without being at death's door, this might not have happened.

Now he is perfectly healed in body, soul and spirit.


"A time to die, and a time to be born" -

I pray that the Lord will continue to comfort and uphold you through your loss. Your post certainly shows that He is already doing that. I wish that it were possible for those who care to really know what to say at such times. I certainly don't pretend to have such knowledge.

 

[shotgunner]

I do want to say this and I am not arguing or debating anyone. I want everyone to know that I have compassion for hurting people. I do not dismiss them as their ailments being their fault simply because they don't have enough faith. I love people and I hope I haven't come across in any other way. I get angry and upset just like everyone else but my intention is only to try to get people to trust God to do exactly what he said he will do. There are plenty of healing promises in God's word for anyone who will grab hold of them.

 

[ladylynn]

Do I really want a lecture about faith from someone who has faith in an arrogant scammer? No, yet here you are again.

Was not meant to be a lecture., just sharing like everyone else does on these forums. Not sure who you believe is an "arrogant scammer" but my faith has to be in Christ in order to have it matter for anything. And I'll always address a healing topic when it comes up because there is a powerful lack of information on the subject.

 

[Angela53510]

Really this whole discussion of healing goes back to a poor understanding of the character of God. It seems lie the WoFers and those who believe it is ALWAYS God's will to be healed, have forgotten some essential things about the character of God, primarily by leaving out most of the Bible in forming their theology.

God is a God of love. (1 John 4:8,16) There is no doubt about that. So people assume that God's love somehow obigates him to heal everyone the minute they ask. And if God doesn't heal it is not about God's sovereignty nor character, which they do not begin to understand, but rather about the faith of the believer.

Really, it is kind of laughable that one puny person seems to have more power than God to heal and that that person's faith is the key pivot in healing, rather than God's character, purposes and power. It does violence to the Scriptures to pull verses out of context of the divine plan, which is about the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not about us, except that God loves us and has saved us according to his perfect will.

God is also a God of justice. That means, his character demands perfect justice. This is the foundation of our salvation. We need a Saviour to satisfy the consequences of our sins, and that is Jesus! Jesus redeemed us from sin and death.

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:13-14

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—" Gal 3:13

Christ fulfilled all to satisfy the justice of God. But there are so many examples of the character of God, esp. in the OT, where God showed justice, and to all intents and purposes, God seems to be more bent on killing people than healing them or setting them free.

From God destroying the whole world, except Noah and his family, by the flood, to God destroying the Egyptian army after the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, God's justice is seen in his holiness. His name is holy!

2 “There is none holy like the Lord:
for there is none besides you;
there is no rock like our God." 1 Sam 2:2

"And one called to another and said:“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!" Isa. 6:3

"since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16

Because of the justice and the holiness, God can do things that are outside of our little "ALWAYS" box.

God promised David for forgiveness for his transgressions of adultery and murder, but demanded the son of that sordid affair die. David fasted, wept and prayed for 7 days, that God would spare him, and the child died. Was God loving to do that? Was God ALWAYS obligated to answer prayers for healing? NO! Because God's holiness and justice required that he wipe out that child, who was the child of adultery and murder.

Hezekiah got sick. He was told by Isaiah he was going to die and to set his house in order. But Hezekiah prayed, and God relented and healed him. So finally, a good example of God answering prayer and healing, right?

"In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover.”[a]2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord,3 and said, “Please, O Lord, remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.4 Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 5 “Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.[6 I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and will defend this city." Isa. 38:1-6

The trouble is that God did not want and should NOT have healed Hezekiah, although he was a godly and just king. Why? Because during the next 15 years, Hezekiah had another son, who would not have been born if God had allowed Hezekiah to die. That son was Manasseh, who was the most wicked and evil king Judah had, and he ruled and led astray the Jews for 55 years! And he led astray his sons, and led to the downfall of Judah and captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

Or the second king Josiah! He tried to serve God. He was king over Judah from 640-609 BC. He went out on the battlefield and was killed by Neco, Pharoah of Egypt. Why did God allow him to be killed? I don't know, but it seems that God was moving his people forward by destroying the nation which was a stink in his nostrils. An idolatrous and wicked nation who had disobeyed God and needed some kind of extreme shakedown before the Messiah could be born.

And don't say these are OT examples. Enough NT ones have been given, and God's character doesn't change. God is above and beyond the tiny boxes some denominations would put him in. He acts in accordance with his good will, which comes directly out of his justice and holiness and his unfailing and amazing love.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding,
In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight." Prov. 3:5-6

Trusting in God, means just that trust GOD. Not an inadequate theology, which fails to include the infinite and majestic glory of the Creator of the universe. Stop leaning on your own understandings, which are based on a shallow reading of the Biblical text. Acknowledge that God is in contol, but he is NOT obligated to our petty understandings.

The result will be peace with God, growth in character, and compassion for those who are sick or suffering, through no fault of their own, or maybe even their own fault.

We are called to exalt the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Not our own made up rules for the way the universe OUGHT to work.

God is in control! In sickness and in health, in life and in death! He is Lord of ALL!

 

[Angela53510]

I do want to say this and I am not arguing or debating anyone. I want everyone to know that I have compassion for hurting people. I do not dismiss them as their ailments being their fault simply because they don't have enough faith. I love people and I hope I haven't come across in any other way. I get angry and upset just like everyone else but my intention is only to try to get people to trust God to do exactly what he said he will do. There are plenty of healing promises in God's word for anyone who will grab hold of them.

And yet you continue to NOT post verses. I think you did one a couple of pages ago. Bring out all these healing promises. We can look at them in context, in the Greek and Hebrew, and rightly divide them together. And please read my last post. God will do what he wants, and it willl ALWAYS be consistent with HIS character, but not necessarily with our poor theology.

 

[atwhatcost]

I'm very unequipped to deal with these arguments I'll be honest. The topic of cancer came up with people at work and some were saying God must have created cancer and some were saying God didn't create cancer, to which the reply was "So your stating things can be created without a God?" And it just went in an endless circle.

I can't get my head around it and don't pretend to know the first thing about why people have terrible afflictions.

This thread has been a great help.

I knew I figured this out once. I forgot. lol

Poison ivy and cactus! <---two plants that weren't around when God first created the earth.

How do I know? Because he told Adam and Eve they could eat anything in the garden. Who's eating poison ivy? And then when he cursed the land, he mentioned he was making thorns. So, if there were cactii before the fall, they'd be thornless. (So would roses.)

So, I figured all the bad stuff that causes us harm now -- viruses, bad germs, mutating cells, prickle pear cactus, poison ivy and datura -- wasn't around before the Fall. They're all part of the curse. We have fallen, so God did create more stuff later.

In the beginning of the 18th century, my ancestor was the Duke of Buckingham. Something happened, (I've heard several versions of what), and the king cut off his head and took his land. In the beginning earth, my ancestors were Adam and Eve. They had full rights to the land they lived in too, but something happened and they got kicked out of that land.

Because of my ancestors, do I then deserve the right to either piece of ground? Nope. Not from my doing, (although I would have screwed it up too), but because of what happened to my ancestors.

Same deal with cancer. It may not be our fault it came along, but we're stuck with the consequences sometimes. And that's not always a bad thing. (I love datura and prickly pear cactus, even if I have to be careful around them.) Cancer only feels evil for what it does.

God still uses even that for the good of his people.

 

[atwhatcost]

I do want to say this and I am not arguing or debating anyone. I want everyone to know that I have compassion for hurting people. I do not dismiss them as their ailments being their fault simply because they don't have enough faith. I love people and I hope I haven't come across in any other way. I get angry and upset just like everyone else but my intention is only to try to get people to trust God to do exactly what he said he will do. There are plenty of healing promises in God's word for anyone who will grab hold of them.

One question:
Is God unable to heal me simply because I don't trust in certain verses in the Bible the same way you do?

That's a loaded question. I'm asking if I'm able to stop God from getting his will? Personally, I trust God to get his will, even if I'm not strong enough to believe I can be healed. And since I've been healed twice, I'm not exactly sure where you see me in my trusting God, but I'm contending it doesn't matter. Jonah out and out told and showed God how little he trusted God when God told him to go to Nineveh. God got him there anyway.

You say people have to believe God to be healed. Ummm, no they don't! Not if it's God's will to heal them anyway. No human has ever stopped God from getting his will.

 

[atwhatcost]

Was not meant to be a lecture., just sharing like everyone else does on these forums. Not sure who you believe is an "arrogant scammer" but my faith has to be in Christ in order to have it matter for anything. And I'll always address a healing topic when it comes up because there is a powerful lack of information on the subject.

You would be sure had you read the first response I gave to you the first time I posted this. It's on Page One. That's the arrogant scammer you keep pushing as god's man, when obviously he has no need for God.

You keep pushing WoF without need for God, and I keep coming back with need for God in all things, including healing or not-healing. I was fed up with your gospel way back when I didn't even know you or heard of your scammer. Believing in power for healing past what God wills is horrible to those of us who don't get the healing. People that preach faith-above-God have destroyed so many in the name of their particular prove-a-point (and one that can't be proven.) I will not sit back as you rattle down more lies apart from God and his word, just because you have a system... and one apart from God.

I will do what I can to stop God's people from walking away from him to follow your gospel, because I know the destruction of that one. I have a brother who is an atheist simply because Mom died. He believed God would heal her. He hasn't forgiven God since, and that was back in 1972.

Add to that, I knew the guy who laid hands on her in that hospital. I was brand new to the Lord and some bozo taught me laying on of hands and praying for healing always works. THAT is the reason I spent the next FIVE years of my life backslidden. Because some bozo got me to believe the junk you're trying to sell here to any unaware believer, so I'm calling what you say for what it is -- UNGODLY JUNK!!!

I'm not that naive 16 year old anymore. I've grown up, and the hard way, because of that ungodly junk.

So, sure, you have all rights to say whatever you want. And likewise, I have all rights to renounce it!

 

[shotgunner]

One question:
Is God unable to heal me simply because I don't trust in certain verses in the Bible the same way you do?

That's a loaded question. I'm asking if I'm able to stop God from getting his will? Personally, I trust God to get his will, even if I'm not strong enough to believe I can be healed. And since I've been healed twice, I'm not exactly sure where you see me in my trusting God, but I'm contending it doesn't matter. Jonah out and out told and showed God how little he trusted God when God told him to go to Nineveh. God got him there anyway.

You say people have to believe God to be healed. Ummm, no they don't! Not if it's God's will to heal them anyway. No human has ever stopped God from getting his will.

I'll answer because you asked.I'm not accusing you of anything. I don't know your situation at all. I do want you to believe me when I say that I have compassion for you.

Let me ask you a question and perhaps answer yours in the asking. Do you agree with 2 Peter 3:9 which tells us that God is not willing that any should perish? Why doesn't God just go against everyone's will and save everyone since it's his will that all should be saved? Isn't it necessary for someone to have faith in Jesus as the savior to be saved? Why would it not be necessary to have faith in God as the healer to be healed?

I can't sit here and tell you that faith alone is the only reason someone doesn't get instantly healed when they pray, but neither will I go against the scriptures that tell me God is the healer. I see God as the healer in the character of Jesus as he healed all who came to him requesting healing. Not one did he ever turn away because it was not his will. Not one did he ever tell to suffer longer for his glory. I do however see several instances where Jesus told people that their faith had made them whole, or that they were healed according to their faith. I also see one instance where Jesus said he could do no mighty works because of their unbelief.

 

[atwhatcost]

I'll answer because you asked.I'm not accusing you of anything. I don't know your situation at all. I do want you to believe me when I say that I have compassion for you.

Let me ask you a question and perhaps answer yours in the asking. Do you agree with 2 Peter 3:9 which tells us that God is not willing that any should perish? Why doesn't God just go against everyone's will and save everyone since it's his will that all should be saved? Isn't it necessary for someone to have faith in Jesus as the savior to be saved? Why would it not be necessary to have faith in God as the healer to be healed?

I can't sit here and tell you that faith alone is the only reason someone doesn't get instantly healed when they pray, but neither will I go against the scriptures that tell me God is the healer. I see God as the healer in the character of Jesus as he healed all who came to him requesting healing. Not one did he ever turn away because it was not his will. Not one did he ever tell to suffer longer for his glory. I do however see several instances where Jesus told people that their faith had made them whole, or that they were healed according to their faith. I also see one instance where Jesus said he could do no mighty works because of their unbelief.

Context is everything. Who was Peter talking to?
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
So what was he saying by the time he got to what we consider the third chapter and the 9th verse? You simply skipped the preceding half of even that verse and pulled it out of context. Here's full context (with some words much larger so you notice it.)

3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
If this were for nonbelievers than why in the world would nonbelievers be waiting for the hastening of days? The letter starts by saying who it is for. God will not have any of them perish.

What does this have to do with salvation or healing? Peter wrote to those who were already saved and it didn't talk about healing at all.

As for not one did Jesus turn away? Guess what. Every single person he healed died somehow later. Even Lazarus. You seem to think healing is the thing. Nope. Jesus is the thing -- trusting him. Trusting him knowing we're still going to die.

What mighty work couldn't he do and who didn't he do it for? Context again.

 

[ladylynn]

Really this whole discussion of healing goes back to a poor understanding of the character of God. It seems lie the WoFers and those who believe it is ALWAYS God's will to be healed, have forgotten some essential things about the character of God, primarily by leaving out most of the Bible in forming their theology.

God is a God of love. (1 John 4:8,16) There is no doubt about that. So people assume that God's love somehow obigates him to heal everyone the minute they ask. And if God doesn't heal it is not about God's sovereignty nor character, which they do not begin to understand, but rather about the faith of the believer.

Really, it is kind of laughable that one puny person seems to have more power than God to heal and that that person's faith is the key pivot in healing, rather than God's character, purposes and power. It does violence to the Scriptures to pull verses out of context of the divine plan, which is about the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not about us, except that God loves us and has saved us according to his perfect will.

God is also a God of justice. That means, his character demands perfect justice. This is the foundation of our salvation. We need a Saviour to satisfy the consequences of our sins, and that is Jesus! Jesus redeemed us from sin and death.

"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:13-14

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—" Gal 3:13

Christ fulfilled all to satisfy the justice of God. But there are so many examples of the character of God, esp. in the OT, where God showed justice, and to all intents and purposes, God seems to be more bent on killing people than healing them or setting them free.

From God destroying the whole world, except Noah and his family, by the flood, to God destroying the Egyptian army after the Israelites crossed the Red Sea, God's justice is seen in his holiness. His name is holy!

2 “There is none holy like the Lord:
for there is none besides you;
there is no rock like our God." 1 Sam 2:2

"And one called to another and said:“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!" Isa. 6:3

"since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:16

Because of the justice and the holiness, God can do things that are outside of our little "ALWAYS" box.

God promised David for forgiveness for his transgressions of adultery and murder, but demanded the son of that sordid affair die. David fasted, wept and prayed for 7 days, that God would spare him, and the child died. Was God loving to do that? Was God ALWAYS obligated to answer prayers for healing? NO! Because God's holiness and justice required that he wipe out that child, who was the child of adultery and murder.

Hezekiah got sick. He was told by Isaiah he was going to die and to set his house in order. But Hezekiah prayed, and God relented and healed him. So finally, a good example of God answering prayer and healing, right?

"In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover.”[a]2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord,3 and said, “Please, O Lord, remember how I have walked before you in faithfulness and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.4 Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 5 “Go and say to Hezekiah, Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold, I will add fifteen years to your life.[6 I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria, and will defend this city." Isa. 38:1-6

The trouble is that God did not want and should NOT have healed Hezekiah, although he was a godly and just king. Why? Because during the next 15 years, Hezekiah had another son, who would not have been born if God had allowed Hezekiah to die. That son was Manasseh, who was the most wicked and evil king Judah had, and he ruled and led astray the Jews for 55 years! And he led astray his sons, and led to the downfall of Judah and captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

Or the second king Josiah! He tried to serve God. He was king over Judah from 640-609 BC. He went out on the battlefield and was killed by Neco, Pharoah of Egypt. Why did God allow him to be killed? I don't know, but it seems that God was moving his people forward by destroying the nation which was a stink in his nostrils. An idolatrous and wicked nation who had disobeyed God and needed some kind of extreme shakedown before the Messiah could be born.

And don't say these are OT examples. Enough NT ones have been given, and God's character doesn't change. God is above and beyond the tiny boxes some denominations would put him in. He acts in accordance with his good will, which comes directly out of his justice and holiness and his unfailing and amazing love.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding,
In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight." Prov. 3:5-6

Trusting in God, means just that trust GOD. Not an inadequate theology, which fails to include the infinite and majestic glory of the Creator of the universe. Stop leaning on your own understandings, which are based on a shallow reading of the Biblical text. Acknowledge that God is in contol, but he is NOT obligated to our petty understandings.

The result will be peace with God, growth in character, and compassion for those who are sick or suffering, through no fault of their own, or maybe even their own fault.

We are called to exalt the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Not our own made up rules for the way the universe OUGHT to work.

God is in control! In sickness and in health, in life and in death! He is Lord of ALL!

There is a major difference between the believers in the old testement who lived under the old covenant of law and those of us today who live under the new covenant of grace. Being in the new covenant of grace makes all the difference for the Christian today. Many new covenant believers are living like old covenant believers under law and missing out on the many great and precious promises we have because of our Great High Priest who took all judgment upon Himself on our behalf. By grace through faith., not the blood of bulls and goats. The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

David did not live under the covenant of grace even though he was a man after God's own heart and the apple of God's eye. We believers are under the new covenant of grace and have much better and even greater promises.,we have it amazingly better than David. He had to pay for his own sin as the law required payment., as God passed judgment on him. God showed mercy toward David by not having him killed, but David did not live under the covenant of grace., he lived under the law and owed God and had to pay restitution. David did not have Jesus as his Great High Priest who was making intercession for him. We do.

Those old testament believers although were faithful, they had to make sure they shed blood for their sins each day some sacrifice had to be made to cover their sins. They were not saved once and for all like we are. I encourage you Angela to learn about what it means to live under the new covenant of grace and all the promises God has for you and yours. We are new covenant saints now., no longer under law, but under grace. Great and precious promises are ours. Healing is part of those promises.







[h=4]God Wants You Healed And Whole[/h]Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy]. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.
— Isaiah 53:4–5 (AMP)
But He was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.
— Isaiah 53:5 (NLT)
… who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
— 1 Peter 2:24
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
— Romans 8:11
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
— Romans 8:32Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached Him and knelt before Him. “Lord,” the man said, “if You are willing, You can heal me and make me clean.” Jesus reached out and touched him. “I am willing,” He said. “Be healed!” And instantly the leprosy disappeared.
— Matthew 8:2–3 (NLT)
“Lord, help!” they cried in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress. He sent out His word and healed them, snatching them from the door of death.
— Psalm 107:19–20 (NLT)For He will rescue you from every trap and protect you from deadly disease.
— Psalm 91:3 (NLT)
He also brought them out with silver and gold, and there was none feeble among His tribes.
— Psalm 105:37Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
— 3 John 1:2 (NASB)
“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have [it] more abundantly.”
— John 10:10
Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day. Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
— Psalm 91:5–7 (NLT)With long life I will satisfy him, and show him My salvation.
— Psalm 91:16“…I am the Lord who heals you.”
— Exodus 15:26
“I will give you back your health and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
— Jeremiah 30:17 (NLT)Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
— Psalm 103:2–3My son, give attention to my words; incline your ear to my sayings. Do not let them depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart; for they [are] life to those who find them, and health to all their flesh.
— Proverbs 4:20-22
[h=4]Everyone Who Came To Jesus Was Healed[/h]And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
— Matthew 4:23News about Him spread as far as Syria, and people soon began bringing to Him all who were sick. And whatever their sickness or disease, or if they were demon-possessed or epileptic or paralyzed—He healed them all.
— Matthew 4:24 (NLT)When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
— Matthew 8: 5–7 (NIV)
When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities and bore [our] sicknesses.”
— Matthew 8:16–17…Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!” And the man jumped up and went home!
— Matthew 9:6–7 (NLT)Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them [the] lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them.
— Matthew 15:30Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed Him.
— Matthew 20:34 (NIV)And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. And He said to the man who had the withered hand, “Step forward.” Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent. And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched [it] out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.
— Mark 3:1–5A woman in the crowd had suffered for twelve years with constant bleeding. She had suffered a great deal from many doctors, and over the years she had spent everything she had to pay them, but she had gotten no better. In fact, she had gotten worse. She had heard about Jesus, so she came up behind Him through the crowd and touched His robe. For she thought to herself, “If I can just touch His robe, I will be healed.” Immediately the bleeding stopped, and she could feel in her body that she had been healed of her terrible condition.
— Mark 5:25–29 (NLT)Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want Me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
— Mark 10:49–52 (NIV)When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.
— Luke 4:40And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed [them] all.
— Luke 6:19A funeral procession was coming out as He approached the village gate. The young man who had died was a widow’s only son, and a large crowd from the village was with her. When the Lord saw her, His heart overflowed with compassion. “Don’t cry!” He said. Then He walked over to the coffin and touched it, and the bearers stopped. “Young man,” He said, “I tell you, get up.” Then the dead boy sat up and began to talk! And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
— Luke 7:12–15 (NLT)And a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, He called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then He put His hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.
— Luke 13:11–13 (NIV)One of the men lying there had been sick for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him and knew he had been ill for a long time, He asked him, “Would you like to get well?” “I can’t, sir,” the sick man said, “for I have no one to put me into the pool when the water bubbles up. Someone else always gets there ahead of me.” Jesus told him, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!” Instantly, the man was healed! He rolled up his sleeping mat and began walking!
— John 5:5–9 (NLT)“…how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
— Acts 10:38

 

[ladylynn]

You would be sure had you read the first response I gave to you the first time I posted this. It's on Page One. That's the arrogant scammer you keep pushing as god's man, when obviously he has no need for God.

You keep pushing WoF without need for God, and I keep coming back with need for God in all things, including healing or not-healing. I was fed up with your gospel way back when I didn't even know you or heard of your scammer. Believing in power for healing past what God wills is horrible to those of us who don't get the healing. People that preach faith-above-God have destroyed so many in the name of their particular prove-a-point (and one that can't be proven.) I will not sit back as you rattle down more lies apart from God and his word, just because you have a system... and one apart from God.

I will do what I can to stop God's people from walking away from him to follow your gospel, because I know the destruction of that one. I have a brother who is an atheist simply because Mom died. He believed God would heal her. He hasn't forgiven God since, and that was back in 1972.

Add to that, I knew the guy who laid hands on her in that hospital. I was brand new to the Lord and some bozo taught me laying on of hands and praying for healing always works. THAT is the reason I spent the next FIVE years of my life backslidden. Because some bozo got me to believe the junk you're trying to sell here to any unaware believer, so I'm calling what you say for what it is -- UNGODLY JUNK!!!

I'm not that naive 16 year old anymore. I've grown up, and the hard way, because of that ungodly junk.

So, sure, you have all rights to say whatever you want. And likewise, I have all rights to renounce it!

I want to encourage you along with Angela to find out what we believers have now living under the new covenant. I'm sorry you ladies have had such bad experiences in your life with different people and their teachings. It is difficult when people let you down and teach you improperly about God. We each have our stories of other people letting us down and causing us grief. But when anger and bitterness become our response to people who we don't even know, it's time to take stock.

 

[shotgunner]

Context is everything. Who was Peter talking to?
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
So what was he saying by the time he got to what we consider the third chapter and the 9th verse? You simply skipped the preceding half of even that verse and pulled it out of context. Here's full context (with some words much larger so you notice it.)

3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
If this were for nonbelievers than why in the world would nonbelievers be waiting for the hastening of days? The letter starts by saying who it is for. God will not have any of them perish.

What does this have to do with salvation or healing? Peter wrote to those who were already saved and it didn't talk about healing at all.

As for not one did Jesus turn away? Guess what. Every single person he healed died somehow later. Even Lazarus. You seem to think healing is the thing. Nope. Jesus is the thing -- trusting him. Trusting him knowing we're still going to die.

What mighty work couldn't he do and who didn't he do it for? Context again.

2 Peter 3:9King James Version (KJV)[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This says to me that the Lord is giving people time to repent because he isn't willing that they perish. I don't see how you can say it says anything else.

Even dismissing that scripture, look at this
Ephesians 2:8King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Does this not say that faith is necessary? Aren't we told to believe? The Bible doesn't teach us that we are saved against our will, or despite our belief. Why would anyone expect to be healed against their will or despite their belief?