Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a sorrow which is without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
We have already seen that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2: 8, 9) and that faith works through love. (Gal. 5: 6) This verse depicts one factor, repentance, that leads to salvation, that is operative prior to the reception of the gift of salvation.

Repentance is prior to salvation because it's prior to receiving salvation through faith in Christ. We must first repent "change our mind" before we believe the gospel and become saved. You error by placing repentance "after" faith.

If that is correct, then we can combine the thoughts of the three verses to read: salvation is by grace through faith which works through repentance through love.

Those who have been saved by grace through faith have already repented and then faith works through love BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved.

If this is true, then salvation is certainly by grace through faith that is not alone.

When you hear a genuine believer say that we are saved through "faith alone," they are not saying that we are saved by the "kind" of faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. Saving faith results in producing good works, so it's not alone in that sense but it's still faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation that "alone" is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith, but they are not the instrumental means by which we receive salvation as well. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation.

Of course there other factors that save or lead to salvation also, therefore we would be justified in inserting any of these factors into our comprehensive statement. Anyone of these factors throws the “faith only” doctrine in to serious question. God bless.

What a genuine believer means by salvation through faith IN CHRIST alone and what James means by "faith only" is not the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. Faith rightly understood IN CHRIST alone saves (Ephesians 2:8,9). Someone who claims to have faith but has no works to back up their claim demonstrates they have a dead faith. This is what James means by "faith only" - empty profession of faith. James chapter 2 is a major stumbling block for works salvationists.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
That He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. (Eph. 5: 26)
You accuse me of jumping to the conclusion that every reference to water in the Scriptures means water baptism. And why wouldn’t that be the first thought? (1) The Jews had ordinances for purification by the washing with water for centuries. (2) John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sin. (3) Jesus, Himself, was baptized in water to fulfill all righteous, that is to fulfill the consecration requirements of the Law. (4) Jesus and his disciples baptized in water more people than John. (5) Jesus authorized the making of disciples by baptizing them in water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to all nations. (6) Peter said the promise of forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit, by repentance and baptism in water extended to all, as many as God shall call. (7) When water is used metaphorically it is modified, example- “living water)
In this verse, Eph. 5: 26, the cleansing is by the washing with water. How do we know to be baptized? The word tells us, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized.” (Acts 2: 28) To whom does that apply? To everyone God calls!
We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3: 5) Does a washing away of sins occur at baptism in the name of Christ? (Acts 22; 16) Is water, H[SUP]2[/SUP]O, involved in the regeneration? (John 3: 5) Can you be born of water, come forth from water, if you have not been immersed in water? (Acts 8: 39; Mk. 1: 10; Mt. 3: 16) Can you be born of the Spirit, metaphorically come forth from the Spirit, if you have not been immersed in the Spirit? You appear to have your metaphors and your voices mixed up. Drinking the Spirit is not being cleansed by the Spirit. And your friend A. T. Robertson says that in 1 Peter 1: 23 we have a “perfect passive participle” making “born” refer to the begettal not the rebirth of regeneration. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;[SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philip. 2: 12, 13)
Because you appear to be unable to differentiate between works of faith and works of the law, you imagine that everyone who advocates baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin is advocating works of merit. You are mistaken. Baptism is a work, a response of man, and it is “of faith”. (Acts 8: 36-38) You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that baptism is a work of faith. Baptism requires faith. Those who baptize infants, incapable of faith, make it a work of merit. And of course those who believe that baptism, itself, makes one righteous before God, also make baptism out to be a work of merit. I don’t subscribe to either of those views.
Yes, it is true as you point out that we do not “work for” our salvation but we are admonished to “work out” our salvation. It is also true that in some unspecified way this involves obedience and the participation of man. Before we begin to congratulate ourselves however, Paul reminds us that it is God working in us both to will and to do. Therefore there is no boasting, there is no merit in baptism, we have only done that which we should have done if we are servants of God. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
Constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father. (1 Thess. 1: 3)
It is true as you say that these works of faith follow salvation, but it is also true that there are works of faith that precede salvation, that lead to salvation. These works you deny or spin. (Acts 2: 21; Mk. 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21; Acts 11: 18; 2 Cor. 7: 10; Rom. 10: 10, Titus 3: 5; Heb. 5: 9; Matt. 7: 21) Then we have other factors that such as James 1: 12; John 3: 5; 1 John 3: 14; Rom. 8: 24; 2 Thess. 1; 8, 9; Rom 2: 8, 9; Matt 18: 3; et.) God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
That He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. (Eph. 5: 26)
You accuse me of jumping to the conclusion that every reference to water in the Scriptures means water baptism. And why wouldn’t that be the first thought?

Not every reference to "water" in Scripture is water baptism. Just look at John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 - LIVING WATER. Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by/with/through the word, not by plain ordinary H20. The Holy Spirit is the instrument and source of both the cleansing and the birth of the divine nature in us. "Water" intensifies and magnifies "Spirit" by means of the many figurative ways God's Holy Spirit is shown working as a means of God's light-and life-giving Word, of spiritual power, and of cleansing. Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3).

(1) The Jews had ordinances for purification by the washing with water for centuries.

Referred to as ceremonial washings. In John 3:22-25, we read - 22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he does not wash away his sins literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away. The Old Testament laws of purification (ceremonially washings) did not literally wash away sins either.

(2) John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance in water for the forgiveness of sin.

Was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins received through repentance? I've heard people who attend the church of Christ say that water baptism was not necessary for salvation BEFORE Pentecost but it is AFTER Pentecost in order to "get around" the thief on the cross receiving salvation through faith apart from water baptism. So what about Matthew 3:11? Notice - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance or "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance?

(3) Jesus, Himself, was baptized in water to fulfill all righteous, that is to fulfill the consecration requirements of the Law.

We see that baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5). So the baptism of Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law? Is that why you got baptized? Are you looking to be justified by the Law?

(4) Jesus and his disciples baptized in water more people than John.

John 4:1 - The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

(5) Jesus authorized the making of disciples by baptizing them in water, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, to all nations.

Getting water baptized does not "make" someone become a disciple. The water is not magic. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made prior to getting water baptized. Make disciples then baptize them.

(6) Peter said the promise of forgiveness and the gift of the Holy Spirit, by repentance and baptism in water extended to all, as many as God shall call.

Luke 24:47 says ..repentance and forgiveness of sins.. *with no mention of baptism.* Acts 10:43 says ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. They believed, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - ..the gift of the Holy Spirit) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:45-47; 11:17). Also compare Acts 11:17 with Acts 16:31. So with keeping in perfect harmony with Scripture, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

(7) When water is used metaphorically it is modified, example- “living water)

John 4:14 - but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. No modifications in this verse. Same water in John 3:5.

In this verse, Eph. 5: 26, the cleansing is by the washing with water

BY THE WORD. Don't leave that out.

How do we know to be baptized? The word tells us, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized.” (Acts 2: 28) To whom does that apply? To everyone God calls!

Sure, new converts are to be baptized. I was baptized after my conversion through repentance/faith as well. I was saved through faith prior to getting water baptized, just as all believers are.

We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3: 5)

This is spiritual washing/purification of the soul accomplished by the Holy Spirit (and not plain ordinary H20) at the moment of salvation.

Does a washing away of sins occur at baptism in the name of Christ? (Acts 22; 16)

No, prior to water baptism. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown make note of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism.

Is water, H[SUP]2[/SUP]O, involved in the regeneration? (John 3: 5) Can you be born of water, come forth from water, if you have not been immersed in water? (Acts 8: 39; Mk. 1: 10; Mt. 3: 16)

Yes, through Spirit baptism. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to regenerate or cause us to become born again. You are thinking like a Roman Catholic.

Can you be born of the Spirit, metaphorically come forth from the Spirit, if you have not been immersed in the Spirit? You appear to have your metaphors and your voices mixed up.

No mix up on my part, but you continue to mix up the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).

Drinking the Spirit is not being cleansed by the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 says ..drink into one Spirit. In John 4:10, Jesus said ask Him for a drink and He would give you living water. In John 4:14, Jesus said but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life. So you say we drink this water, drink into one Spirit, receive eternal life, but no cleansing is involved?

And your friend A. T. Robertson says that in 1 Peter 1: 23 we have a “perfect passive participle” making “born” refer to the begettal not the rebirth of regeneration. God bless.

Having been begotten again (anagegennhmenoi). Perfect passive participle of anagennaw, which see in verse 1 Peter 2. Not of corruptible seed (ouk ek spora pqarth). Ablative with ek as the source, for pqarto see verse 1 Peter 18, and spora (from speirw to sow), old word (sowing, seed) here only in N.T., though sporo in Mark 4:26, etc. For "incorruptible" (apqartou) see verse 1 Peter 1:4; 1 Peter 3:4. Through the word of God (dia logou qeou). See James 1:18 for "by the word of truth," verse 1 Peter 1:25 here, and Peter's use of logo in Acts 10:36 . It is the gospel message. Which liveth and abideth (zwnto kai menonto). These present active participles (from zaw and menw) can be taken with qeou (God) or with logou (word). In verse Acts 25 menei is used with rhma (word). Still in Daniel 6:26 both menwn and zwn are used with qeo. Either construction makes sense here. - Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;[SUP]13 [/SUP]for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philip. 2: 12, 13)

Work "out" your salvation, NOT work "for" your salvation. You appear to be unable to differentiate between justification and ongoing sanctification. Roman Catholics make the same error.

Because you appear to be unable to differentiate between works of faith and works of the law, you imagine that everyone who advocates baptism in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin is advocating works of merit. You are mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Works of faith are good works which cannot be detached from the moral aspect of the law. We are saved FOR good works, not by good works (Ephesians 2:10). In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which "works of faith/good works" could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any "works of faith/good works" which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

Baptism is a work,

So you admit it! It's a "work" and we are not saved by works. You read Ephesians 2:8-9 as if it says saved by grace through faith and works of faith, just not works of the law. Roman Catholics make the same error. They say that we are saved by faith "infused with works" (just not works of the law) then these works (which they detach from the moral aspect of the law) become meritorious towards receiving salvation. Sugar coat it all you want, it's still salvation by works.

a response of man, and it is “of faith”. (Acts 8: 36-38) You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that baptism is a work of faith. Baptism requires faith.

Yes, baptism is a work of faith "a work done out of faith" which does not mean baptism "is" faith. Faith in Christ for salvation is established first, then water baptism FOLLOWS. Baptism requires that we first place our faith in Christ for salvation, yet so many people get water baptized in various false religions and cults who do not have genuine saving faith in Christ. Many of these people may have "mental assent" belief in the existence and historical facts about Christ (no different than the belief of demons), yet their trust and reliance is in "water and works" for salvation. Their motivation for getting water baptized is "must or else, dipped or condemned!" That is not saving faith in Christ.

Those who baptize infants, incapable of faith, make it a work of merit. And of course those who believe that baptism, itself, makes one righteous before God, also make baptism out to be a work of merit. I don’t subscribe to either of those views.

Anyone who teaches "water baptized or condemned" make it a work of merit, whether infants or adults. You believe that we are not righteous before God (not saved) until we are water baptized, so you stand guilty as charged. If water baptism stands between us and heaven, then it is a work of merit no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.

Yes, it is true as you point out that we do not “work for” our salvation but we are admonished to “work out” our salvation. It is also true that in some unspecified way this involves obedience and the participation of man.

Ongoing sanctification does involve obedience and the participation of man as believers continue to grow in grace.

Before we begin to congratulate ourselves however, Paul reminds us that it is God working in us both to will and to do.

God is working in us both to will and to do, but that does not mean we sit by passively as He does all the work and we do nothing.

Therefore there is no boasting, there is no merit in baptism, we have only done that which we should have done if we are servants of God. God bless.

No, if water baptism stands between us and heaven, then there is merit and boasting in our baptism and this also would mean that Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save us and that we must "add our baptism" as a supplement to His finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. God forbid! In Luke 17:10, the point is that a servant should expect no special reward for doing what was his duty in the first place, not that we are saved by unmerited works that we accomplish "out of faith" that is already established in Christ, which is an oxymoron.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
Constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father. (1 Thess. 1: 3)
It is true as you say that these works of faith follow salvation,

Amen! So you admit that these works of faith FOLLOW salvation. News flash, water baptism is a "work of faith" which FOLLOWS salvation (Acts 10:43-47).

but it is also true that there are works of faith that precede salvation, that lead to salvation. These works you deny or spin.

You were so close, but here is where you blew it. Your obsession with "water and works" salvation continues.

(Acts 2: 21; Mk. 16: 16; 1 Peter 3: 21; Acts 11: 18; 2 Cor. 7: 10; Rom. 10: 10, Titus 3: 5; Heb. 5: 9; Matt. 7: 21) Then we have other factors that such as James 1: 12; John 3: 5; 1 John 3: 14; Rom. 8: 24; 2 Thess. 1; 8, 9; Rom 2: 8, 9; Matt 18: 3; et.) God bless.

It's actually you who denies that salvation is by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, then you try to spin these verses to make them fit your doctrine of salvation through faith and works. Allow me to show you again.

Acts 2:21 - whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. As I explained to you before, calling on the name of the Lord is what we do when we come to faith in Christ and are saved (Romans 10:13), not after we come to faith in Christ.

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Acts 11:18 - This repentance was unto life because as we read in verse 17 - they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and Acts 16:31 says - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, which they did and were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed BEFORE water baptism.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - We see that godly sorrow (not sorrow of the world) produces repentance leading to salvation, which is through faith. Repent "change your mind" new direction of this change of mind "faith in Christ for salvation". Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:10 - Notice in Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe today then confess next week and are finally saved next week.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that when added to mere "mental assent belief" gives us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation *What about someone who is unable to speak (is moot). How can they confess with their mouth? Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.

Titus 3:5 - Spiritual washing/purification of the soul is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (not plain ordinary H20) at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it. The Holy Spirit does the washing and renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth.

Hebrews 5:9 - Seeking salvation by works is not obeying Him. So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (such as Roman Catholics and Mormons, along with yourself) use this verse to try and support "salvation by works." Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10) and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Matthew 7:21 - Salvation by works is not the will of the Father (Matthew 7:22). John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

James 1:12 - "Perseveres under trials, stood the test, love Him" is descriptive of those who are born of God.

John 3:5 - Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. 39 But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again. In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed (past tense) from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) BECAUSE we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Believers do not love their brother in order to pass from death to life but BECAUSE they have passed from death to life. 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. You still have trouble distinguishing between a PRESCRIPTIVE and a DESCRIPTIVE passage of Scripture.

Romans 8:24 - This verse does not teach that if we have faith, but we don't have enough hope, we won't be saved. You are always trying to "add additional requirements" to salvation through faith. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 - elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 - I already explained to you what it means to not obey the gospel of of our Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation by works is not obeying the gospel, quite the opposite. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" As you can see, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Those who do not obey the gospel have refused to believe the gospel. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Romans 2:8,9 - This is crystal clear. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. You try to spin this to make it say saved through faith and works of faith, (Romans Catholics say faith "infused with works") just not works of the law. Paul did not say "and works of faith" and works of faith are good works which are a part of the moral aspect of the law, so your argument is dead on arrival.

Matthew 18:3 - "Unless you are converted and become as little children" is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like little children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are little children. They have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of faith/trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus Christ to save us.

So as you can see, I did not spin these verses but used Biblical hermeneutics to properly interpret these passages of Scripture and the end result is Scripture harmonizes with Scripture. You are still in denial that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Until you can finally see that "works of faith" are good works that we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT by (Ephesians 2:8,9), you will not let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through faith. It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. Then you will be able to say (just as I was able to say several years ago) know I get it and now I KNOW that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God! Continue to prayerfully seek for the truth and God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [SUP]9 [/SUP]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
You say that obeying is choosing to believe! Wow. This reminds me of President Clinton’s, what is “is”. First we must determine what the gospel is. 1 Cor. 15: 14 tells us that the gospel of Jesus consists of three facts---Jesus died for our sins, he was buried and He arose the third day. We believe the gospel when we assent or agree to the truth of these three fact. We obey the gospel, that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18) when we incorporate these three facts---death, burial and resurrection--- into our own life. How do we do that? Paul gives the answer from that same chapter, that same context. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7) When we are baptized into Christ we are baptized into His death. Our old self is crucified with Him so that our sinful self might be done away with, we are buried with Him through baptism into death so that we might arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection. Friends we obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ.
Mailmandan tells us that we can have a positive relationship with God through faith alone. Paul tells us in 2 Thess. 1: 8, 9 that those who don’t know God await eternal destruction. Who shall we believe? Paul or the mailmandan? What does it mean to know God. John says, [SUP]3 [/SUP]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (1 John 2: 3-5) Again he says, [SUP]8 [/SUP]The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4: 8) Salvation is by faith but not by faith alone. That simply is not God’s way. Salvation is by faith which loves and keeps His commandments. We must not only believe the gospel but we must obey it and we must love and keep His commandments. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Tim. 1: 5)
This verse is cited to show that even though faith is absolutely essential, it is not the summum bonum. We are saved by a faith which both loves and hopes. (1 Cor. 13: 13) God has promised eternal life to those that love. (James 1: 12) Those that love have passed from death to life. (1 John 3: 14) In order to have eternal life we must love God and our neighbor. (Lk. 10: 25- 28) We are saved by hope (Rom. 8: 24) an we are purified by hope. (1 John 3: 3) When you say that salvation is by faith alone, you are misrepresenting the gospel. God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, (Heb. 5: 9)
The spin never ends for you. Why not accept what the plainly verse says? Jesus becomes the source of eternal salvation when those that believe, obey Him. Of course this verses repudiates the “faith only” doctrine as does 2 Thess. 1: 8, 9. Those people who teach salvation by works, believe that they are justified on the basis of the work itself. I do not. I believe faith works with the works of faith to perfect faith. We are saved by faith, not at the first moment of faith but when that faith is perfected by obedience. (James 2: 20- 24) God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [SUP]9 [/SUP]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
You say that obeying is choosing to believe! Wow.

Yes, obeying the gospel is choosing to believe the gospel. Wow, you really have a hard time accepting the truth. Read Romans 10:16 again - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Are you denying that choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience? It's obvious that you don't yet believe the gospel and you teach a "different" gospel.

This reminds me of President Clinton’s, what is “is”. First we must determine what the gospel is. 1 Cor. 15: 14 tells us that the gospel of Jesus consists of three facts---Jesus died for our sins, he was buried and He arose the third day. We believe the gospel when we assent or agree to the truth of these three fact.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). What Christ accomplished is not good enough for you so you "add works" (supplements) to the gospel of Christ in order to help Christ save you. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. When will you believe?

We obey the gospel, that form of teaching (Rom. 6: 17, 18) when we incorporate these three facts---death, burial and resurrection--- into our own life. How do we do that? Paul gives the answer from that same chapter, that same context. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7) When we are baptized into Christ we are baptized into His death. Our old self is crucified with Him so that our sinful self might be done away with, we are buried with Him through baptism into death so that we might arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.

Here you go again with water baptism. That's about the only thing that Campbellites talk about. Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ (submersion under water) and being raised to new life with Christ (emergence from water). This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place when we believed the gospel. Water baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. In regards to verses 3-5, the allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being baptized into the body of Christ. Christ is not the water. Water baptism as a picture of death and resurrection symbolizes our likeness to Christ in his death and resurrection. One is the picture or likeness of the other. Water baptism is not the reality but only a picture of the reality. We are mystically placed into the body of Christ when we believe the gospel, and this is when we are placed into the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

In Romans 6:4, the phrase “buried with Him through baptism,” seems to support the idea that baptism is the instrumental cause of justification. However, even here baptism could be understood as the sign of justification. It is not unusual in Scripture to call the reality by the name of its sign. Thus, for example, Paul says that all Christians are circumcised (even though one may not be physically circumcised) - meaning that they possess what circumcision signifies (Philippians 3:3). Using this kind of language, Paul can speak of the great reality of the believers’ spiritual union with Christ, and the benefits which flow from that union, in terms of baptism, its sign. We are forced to give this interpretation by the context. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1, 2). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25). Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about “through faith” - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Friends we obey the gospel when we are baptized into Christ.

Who do you think you are fooling on Christian Chat? Only the already fooled. We obey the gospel when we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Your perverted gospel is "water baptized or condemned." That's the gospel of your church, but it's not the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16).

Mailmandan tells us that we can have a positive relationship with God through faith alone.

Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (Ephesians 2:8,9). Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works) demonstrating that it's a dead faith (James 2:14-24). You still don't understand the difference and there is a reason for that.

Paul tells us in 2 Thess. 1: 8, 9 that those who don’t know God await eternal destruction. Who shall we believe? Paul or the mailmandan?

Paul and the mailman are in agreement. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). It's plain talk who perverts the gospel of Christ by adding "water and works" to it.

What does it mean to know God. John says, [SUP]3 [/SUP]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; [SUP]5 [/SUP]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (1 John 2: 3-5) Again he says, [SUP]8 [/SUP]The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4: 8)

John is giving a description of those who know God - they keep His commandments and they love. People can CLAIM all they want that they know God, but if they do not keep His commandments (by the way, this does not mean sinless perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time, we are not sinless and perfect: Strong's #5083 "tereo" means keep, guard, observe, watch over) and do not love their brother, they demonstrate that they are not children of God - 1 John 2:4; 1 John 3:10. You are confusing the demonstrative evidence that we are born of God with the means by which we became born of God.

Salvation is by faith but not by faith alone. That simply is not God’s way. Salvation is by faith which loves and keeps His commandments. We must not only believe the gospel but we must obey it and we must love and keep His commandments. God bless.

Salvation is through faith IN CHRIST alone - and is NOT BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9). That is God's way. You cannot save yourself by works, so quit trying. Salvation is by faith, then as children of God (who have already been saved through faith) we love and keep His commandments. We don't love and keep His commandments in order to become saved but BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse. Until you repent and believe the gospel, the blinders will not be removed and you will remain spiritually discerned. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Tim. 1: 5)
This verse is cited to show that even though faith is absolutely essential, it is not the summum bonum. We are saved by a faith which both loves and hopes. (1 Cor. 13: 13) God has promised eternal life to those that love. (James 1: 12) Those that love have passed from death to life. (1 John 3: 14) In order to have eternal life we must love God and our neighbor. (Lk. 10: 25- 28) We are saved by hope (Rom. 8: 24) an we are purified by hope. (1 John 3: 3) When you say that salvation is by faith alone, you are misrepresenting the gospel. God bless.

You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. You are completely mixed up! Been there, done that, prior to my conversion, so I know exactly where you are coming from. Those that have hope/those that love are descriptions of those who have genuine faith and are saved. These are not additional requirements to accomplish in order to become saved after we have been saved through faith. "I have faith but I have no hope and I do not love God or my brother" is an OXYMORON (Hebrews 11:6; 1 John 3:10; 1 John 4:8). Salvation is by grace through faith IN CHRIST ALONE. This means that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* This balanced truth continues to go right over your head! Salvation through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE is not misrepresenting the gospel (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 1:16; 3:24; 5:1). When you say that salvation is by faith AND BY WORKS, you are misrepresenting the gospel (Romans 4:4-6; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4). Until the blinders are removed, the gospel will remain HID from you. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, (Heb. 5: 9)
The spin never ends for you.

This spin never ends for you as you continue to write a blank check with the word "obey" then you fill in whatever amount of works that you like and say we must obey this check list of works in order to be saved. Salvation by works! Human pride is your enemy. So the word "obey" here leads you to believe that we are saved BY "obedience" (works) which follow faith in Christ. In Hebrews 5:9, how can you say that you have truly "obeyed Him" (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? As I clearly explained to you before (but the truth continue to go right over your head) - Seeking salvation by works is not obeying Him. So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Still no answer from you? I've heard many works salvationists (such as Roman Catholics and Mormons, along with yourself) use this verse to try and support "salvation by works." Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10) and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Why not accept what the plainly verse says?

I do understand what the verse plainly says and I plainly explained to you who it is that obeys Him. Hebrews 5:9 DOES NOT TEACH SALVATION BY WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Jesus becomes the source of eternal salvation when those that believe, obey Him. Of course this verses repudiates the “faith only” doctrine as does 2 Thess. 1: 8, 9.

No it does not, as I have already clearly explained, but you remain spiritually discerned. Go back and thoroughly read post #327 again. If the truth is what you are looking for, then you will find it. If accommodating the theology of your church is the only thing that you are interested in, then you won't find the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you.

Those people who teach salvation by works, believe that they are justified on the basis of the work itself. I do not. I believe faith works with the works of faith to perfect faith. We are saved by faith, not at the first moment of faith but when that faith is perfected by obedience. (James 2: 20- 24) God bless.

What you just said is an OXYMORON. You said we are not saved at the first moment of faith, but when that faith is perfected by obedience, which means we are saved through faith AND OBEDIENCE/WORKS. Gotcha! You are busted! You teach salvation by works and you don't even realize it! Was Abraham saved when he believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted for righteousness? Or was he still a lost man until many years later, after he offered Isaac on the altar and his faith was perfected in Genesis 22? Now read Romans 4:2-3. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)
Yes, pure water is just water just like clean water in Ez. 36: 25 is just water. The point is that the washing of our bodies with pure water (baptism) is not just a symbol of the purification of having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ but it is also the time when it occurs. When we obey Jesus Christ by faith through baptism, God sprinkles our hearts with the blood of Christ. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14) We are saved by a perfected faith, perfected by the obedience of baptism in the name of Christ. No, we are not saved by faith alone. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our heart sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)
Yes, pure water is just water just like clean water in Ez. 36: 25 is just water.

When are you going to give it a rest? You will NEVER convince me or any other genuine believer on Christian Chat to "withdraw" our faith in Christ and "place it in water baptism and other works" as the means of our salvation, so you are just wasting our time. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cleanse our hearts from sin. Period. Out of our heart flows rivers of LIVING WATER, not plain ordinary H20. All you talk about is water baptism...water baptism...water baptism. You have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in Christ to save you. Truly sad.

The point is that the washing of our bodies with pure water (baptism) is not just a symbol of the purification of having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ but it is also the time when it occurs.

Water baptism is just a symbol of the purification of having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience by the blood of Christ and our hearts are purified by faith (Acts 15:9) and not by water baptism. Water baptism is not the time that salvation occurs and water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/faith/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31).

When we obey Jesus Christ by faith through baptism, God sprinkles our hearts with the blood of Christ. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Heb. 9: 14).

False. Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. *What happened to baptism? The washing of the body with pure water does not represent plain ordinary H20 as the means of spiritual cleansing/purifying of the heart. The verse clearly shows that sprinkling with the blood of Christ is. Since water baptism is not the means of purifying the heart from sin, it is not the means of regeneration and does not literally wash away our sins. Water baptism is the picture, not the reality.

We are saved by a perfected faith, perfected by the obedience of baptism in the name of Christ. No, we are not saved by faith alone. God bless.

Did Abraham have a perfected faith when he believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted for righteousness BEFORE he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? We are saved by faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation BEFORE we get water baptized or accomplish any other works afterwards (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (Ephesians 2:8,9). Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

 

[MarcR]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

to MarcR:
J. R. Mantey repeated this argument in an exchange with Ralph Marcus years ago. Dr. Daniel B Wallace, commented in his GREEK GRAMMAR, Beyond the Basics, pg 370, "Marcus ably demonstrated that the linguistic evidence for a causal 'eis' fell short of proof." Wallace is of the Baptist persuasion as was Mantey
But you don't have to be a Greek scholar, Acts 6: 7 and 6: 17 tells us when we are freed from sin.
God bless.

If, as I believe, the baptism of Ac 2:38 is Spirit baptism rather than water baptism; then the eis discussion becomes moot anyway.

We seem to be in theological agreement in any case.

 

[MarcR]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

to MarcR:
J. R. Mantey repeated this argument in an exchange with Ralph Marcus years ago. Dr. Daniel B Wallace, commented in his GREEK GRAMMAR, Beyond the Basics, pg 370, "Marcus ably demonstrated that the linguistic evidence for a causal 'eis' fell short of proof." Wallace is of the Baptist persuasion as was Mantey
But you don't have to be a Greek scholar, Acts 6: 7 and 6: 17 tells us when we are freed from sin.
God bless.

Speaking of: Acts 6: 7 and 6: 17; Ac 6:7 does not seem to be on topic, and Ac 6:17 is absent from the five translations in which I have attempted to read it. I presume this was a typo.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Amen! So you admit that these works of faith FOLLOW salvation. News flash, water baptism is a "work of faith" which FOLLOWS salvation (Acts 10:43-47).

You were so close, but here is where you blew it. Your obsession with "water and works" salvation continues.

It's actually you who denies that salvation is by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, then you try to spin these verses to make them fit your doctrine of salvation through faith and works. Allow me to show you again.

Acts 2:21 - whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. As I explained to you before, calling on the name of the Lord is what we do when we come to faith in Christ and are saved (Romans 10:13), not after we come to faith in Christ.

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Acts 11:18 - This repentance was unto life because as we read in verse 17 - they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and Acts 16:31 says - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, which they did and were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed BEFORE water baptism.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - We see that godly sorrow (not sorrow of the world) produces repentance leading to salvation, which is through faith. Repent "change your mind" new direction of this change of mind "faith in Christ for salvation". Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:10 - Notice in Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe today then confess next week and are finally saved next week.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that when added to mere "mental assent belief" gives us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation *What about someone who is unable to speak (is moot). How can they confess with their mouth? Such a person would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10.

Titus 3:5 - Spiritual washing/purification of the soul is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (not plain ordinary H20) at the moment of salvation. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it. The Holy Spirit does the washing and renewing, man submits to the baptism after the new birth.

Hebrews 5:9 - Seeking salvation by works is not obeying Him. So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (such as Roman Catholics and Mormons, along with yourself) use this verse to try and support "salvation by works." Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10) and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Matthew 7:21 - Salvation by works is not the will of the Father (Matthew 7:22). John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

James 1:12 - "Perseveres under trials, stood the test, love Him" is descriptive of those who are born of God.

John 3:5 - Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. 39 But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.. *Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again. In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed (past tense) from death to life, (demonstrative evidence) BECAUSE we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Believers do not love their brother in order to pass from death to life but BECAUSE they have passed from death to life. 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. You still have trouble distinguishing between a PRESCRIPTIVE and a DESCRIPTIVE passage of Scripture.

Romans 8:24 - This verse does not teach that if we have faith, but we don't have enough hope, we won't be saved. You are always trying to "add additional requirements" to salvation through faith. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong's #1680 - elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith in Christ then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 - I already explained to you what it means to not obey the gospel of of our Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation by works is not obeying the gospel, quite the opposite. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" As you can see, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Those who do not obey the gospel have refused to believe the gospel. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Romans 2:8,9 - This is crystal clear. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. You try to spin this to make it say saved through faith and works of faith, (Romans Catholics say faith "infused with works") just not works of the law. Paul did not say "and works of faith" and works of faith are good works which are a part of the moral aspect of the law, so your argument is dead on arrival.

Matthew 18:3 - "Unless you are converted and become as little children" is how Jesus characterized conversion. It pictures faith as the simple, helpless, trusting, dependence of those who have no resources of their own. Like little children, they have no achievements and no accomplishments to offer or commend themselves with. Jesus here is pointing to the need to have the same type of faith that little children exhibit. The most trusting people in the world are little children. They have not acquired the obstructions to faith that often come with advanced education and exposure to the philosophies of men. Christ calls us to have the same kind of faith/trust that little children naturally have. People must become as little children in humbly recognizing their helplessness in attaining the kingdon in their own strength. We are 100% dependent on Jesus Christ to save us.

So as you can see, I did not spin these verses but used Biblical hermeneutics to properly interpret these passages of Scripture and the end result is Scripture harmonizes with Scripture. You are still in denial that salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Until you can finally see that "works of faith" are good works that we are saved FOR (Ephesians 2:10) and NOT by (Ephesians 2:8,9), you will not let go of your works in order to take hold of Christ through faith. It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. Then you will be able to say (just as I was able to say several years ago) know I get it and now I KNOW that I have eternal life (1 John 5:13). Praise God! Continue to prayerfully seek for the truth and God bless.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mailmandan again.
Good food.
Thank you

 

[MarcR]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

If, as I believe, the baptism of Ac 2:38 is Spirit baptism rather than water baptism; then the eis discussion becomes moot anyway.

We seem to be in theological agreement in any case.

My apologies to all who have read this! It should read: We don't seem to be in theological agreement anyway!

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mailmandan again.
Good food.
Thank you

Thank you for your encouraging words brother! Please leave a comment and add your name so I will know who to thank if you spread some Reputation my way.