How to Spot a Legalist

[Grandpa]

The Lord Jesus didn't come to establish Torah observance. The bible is quite clear about this.

If Torah observance could perfect us there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.


What happens when we are born again is the law of God is placed in our hearts and minds. Its very important to know that it isn't the description of this law that is placed there. Which is what the 10 commandments are. A description of His Law. Gods actual law, Love, is placed in our hearts and minds.

The more we abide in Christ the more of this law is placed within us. Only by being born again and abiding in Christ can this love be nurtured and grown. Going back to your own Torah observance is going back to your own understanding of working at the law. Which is going back to the way of your heart of Stone so it can follow the law written on Stone in its own strength and understanding.

The way of Love, the way of the Spirit, The Way of Christ, is Faith. Our job, in faith, is to come to Him in Humility and Meekness seeking to be changed from our weak, carnal ways into His Image of Love and Peace.


Something has to be your focus. If it is Torah observance then what you are observing is condemnation and death, whether you realize it or not. It is this condemnation and death that drives us to approach Christ in the beginning. We want to be pleasing to Him who Saved us and we can't by our own works and performance.

The only way to be pleasing before God is to have Faith in Christ. All other ways fall short.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The Lord Jesus didn't come to establish Torah observance. The bible is quite clear about this.

If Torah observance could perfect us there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.


What happens when we are born again is the law of God is placed in our hearts and minds. Its very important to know that it isn't the description of this law that is placed there. Which is what the 10 commandments are. A description of His Law. Gods actual law, Love, is placed in our hearts and minds.

The more we abide in Christ the more of this law is placed within us. Only by being born again and abiding in Christ can this love be nurtured and grown. Going back to your own Torah observance is going back to your own understanding of working at the law. Which is going back to the way of your heart of Stone so it can follow the law written on Stone in its own strength and understanding.

The way of Love, the way of the Spirit, The Way of Christ, is Faith. Our job, in faith, is to come to Him in Humility and Meekness seeking to be changed from our weak, carnal ways into His Image of Love and Peace.


Something has to be your focus. If it is Torah observance then what you are observing is condemnation and death, whether you realize it or not. It is this condemnation and death that drives us to approach Christ in the beginning. We want to be pleasing to Him who Saved us and we can't by our own works and performance.

The only way to be pleasing before God is to have Faith in Christ. All other ways fall short.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

 

[Crustyone]

I may be a puddin' head here, but it sounds like some are putting others down for saying that we do need works to be saved. I totally agree if the works are works of law, but faith needs works also. Faith never had the actual word work or works tied to it, but the necessity of proving it could be called a work and is necessary for salvation. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I may be a puddin' head here, but it sounds like some are putting others down for saying that we do need works to be saved. I totally agree if the works are works of law, but faith needs works also. Faith never had the actual word work or works tied to it, but the necessity of proving it could be called a work and is necessary for salvation. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

If you're saying you need works to be saved, then that is you putting yourself down....way down.

 

[ember]

haha...speaking of childhood memories, my best friend was Catholic and she went to a school that was taught by Nuns...and this pic reminds me of the things she used to say about them...too funny

I just spotted a legalist! That one hits too close to home. Bad memories from childhood.

 

[ember]

I may be a puddin' head here, but it sounds like some are putting others down for saying that we do need works to be saved. I totally agree if the works are works of law, but faith needs works also. Faith never had the actual word work or works tied to it, but the necessity of proving it could be called a work and is necessary for salvation. Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

yeah Crusty...we've been around the world discussing that one and we all agree that if you are saved you do good works but good works do not save you

you can be saved with doing no works...unless of course we want to include worshipping God in Spirit...that would be pretty good IMO!

maybe one day we can set our little selves down in another thread and define just what all those works are...not sure that has been done?

 

[Biblelogic01]

The Lord Jesus didn't come to establish Torah observance. The bible is quite clear about this.

If Torah observance could perfect us there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.


What happens when we are born again is the law of God is placed in our hearts and minds. Its very important to know that it isn't the description of this law that is placed there. Which is what the 10 commandments are. A description of His Law. Gods actual law, Love, is placed in our hearts and minds.

The more we abide in Christ the more of this law is placed within us. Only by being born again and abiding in Christ can this love be nurtured and grown. Going back to your own Torah observance is going back to your own understanding of working at the law. Which is going back to the way of your heart of Stone so it can follow the law written on Stone in its own strength and understanding.

The way of Love, the way of the Spirit, The Way of Christ, is Faith. Our job, in faith, is to come to Him in Humility and Meekness seeking to be changed from our weak, carnal ways into His Image of Love and Peace.


Something has to be your focus. If it is Torah observance then what you are observing is condemnation and death, whether you realize it or not. It is this condemnation and death that drives us to approach Christ in the beginning. We want to be pleasing to Him who Saved us and we can't by our own works and performance.

The only way to be pleasing before God is to have Faith in Christ. All other ways fall short.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

He also didn't come to destroy, abolish, or get rid of Torah.
Because if he did, that would make him a false prophet.
I don't think Jesus is a false prophet.
On top of that, like it's been said previously, Jesus was always teaching against man's traditions, not God's.
Torah is something of God, not the devil or of man.

I've seen nothing but good come from Torah observance in my walk.
And I say this as someone who just follows Torah as a healthy way of life. It has very good moral instructions that go along with the scriptures of the NT.
Now the Torah is not my foundation in salvaiton, because that is only through Jesus.

But it's kind of irritating seeing people hardcore bash on Torah observance (even though Torah was given by God, it's something to bash on I guess if someone observes it), and vise versa seeing people bashing on non-Torah observant people.
It's very sickenning.
Torah observance does not make one legalistic. I don't think the disciples or Paul were legalistic, yet they followed Torah.

As it is so popular on 1 line scriptures, on both sides of the debat of Toah/non-Torah and what not, why not give context. For example.
Read Matthew 7.
The entire context of Matthew 7 Jesus is supporting Torah.
He's also talking about what is called not judging others which is what I see from both sides of the debate on this forum.
Torah-observers judging the non, and the non judge the Torah-observers.
Right after he's talking about the narrow path, and knowing someone by their fruits, Jesus says for those who practice lawlessness to part from him.
Then after that he says whoever listens to what he just taught is basically concidered a wise person.


So based off of Jesus' words himself, Torah is not legalistic.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He also didn't come to destroy, abolish, or get rid of Torah.

He did come to destroy sin's power over us, though, and the power of sin was the law. So though he didn't come to destroy the law, he did destroy its power to condemn us. Therefore, we are not under the law, but under grace.

Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18
​

destroy
G2647 καταλύω kataluo
1. to loosen down (disintegrate)
2. (by implication) to demolish

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
20.54 καταλύωa; καθαιρέωc; καθαίρεσιςa, εως f: to destroy completely by tearing down and dismantling—‘to destroy, to tear down, destruction.’
καταλύωa: οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται λίθος ἐπὶ λίθῳ ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται ‘there will not be one stone left on another which will not be torn down’ Lk 21:6.​

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15​

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​

 

[Biblelogic01]

He did come to destroy sin's power over us, though, and the power of sin was the law. So though he didn't come to destroy the law, he did destroy its power to condemn us. Therefore, we are not under the law, but under grace.

Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18
​

destroy
G2647 καταλύω kataluo
1. to loosen down (disintegrate)
2. (by implication) to demolish

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
20.54 καταλύωa; καθαιρέωc; καθαίρεσιςa, εως f: to destroy completely by tearing down and dismantling—‘to destroy, to tear down, destruction.’
καταλύωa: οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται λίθος ἐπὶ λίθῳ ὃς οὐ καταλυθήσεται ‘there will not be one stone left on another which will not be torn down’ Lk 21:6.​

For [Christ] is our peace, who has made both [Jew and gentile] one, destroying the middle wall of the barrier, the enmity, in his flesh; having abolished the law (nomos) of commandments (entoles) contained in ordinances (dogmas); that of the two he should make in himself one new man, so making peace. Ephesians 2:14-15​

abolish
G2673 καταργέω katargeo
1. to make entirely idle

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON of the NEW TESTAMENT BASED ON SEMANTIC DOMAINS
76.26 καταργέωc: to render ineffective the power or force of something—‘to invalidate, to abolish, to cause not to function.’ τὸν νόμον τῶν ἐντολῶν ἐν δόγμασιν καταργήσας ‘to abolish the Law of commandments consisting of regulations’ Eph 2:15;​

I agree with this, but there is a difference between following Torah and being under the law.
There are a plethura of people out there who do not understand that, therefor they are "scared" of it and look down upon it.
There are people who teach that Torah itself is man made, when it is not; that Torah is evil/sinful, when it's not; that it leads to destruction, when it does not.

Torah makes us aware of what sin is, and Jesus allows sin to not to be held against us.
I don't think this means to be ignorant and dilly dally as we want.
Again Torah is not sin.

It's just like a rule book.
The book has the rules, and makes you aware of the rules.
Knowing what the rules are does not make the book itself against the rules.

Now there is deffinately a wrong way to follow Torah, but there is also a right way to follow Torah, and again that's what a lot of people don't understand, and don't want to. So they feel that it is wrong as a whole due to this.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree with this, but there is a difference between following Torah and being under the law.
There are a plethura of people out there who do not understand that, therefor they are "scared" of it and look down upon it.
There are people who teach that Torah itself is man made, when it is not; that Torah is evil/sinful, when it's not; that it leads to destruction, when it does not.

Torah makes us aware of what sin is, and Jesus allows sin to not to be held against us.
I don't think this means to be ignorant and dilly dally as we want.
Again Torah is not sin.

It's just like a rule book.
The book has the rules, and makes you aware of the rules.
Knowing what the rules are does not make the book itself against the rules.

Now there is deffinately a wrong way to follow Torah, but there is also a right way to follow Torah, and again that's what a lot of people don't understand, and don't want to. So they feel that it is wrong as a whole due to this.

We don't look down on the law, but we do look up to Jesus. Why follow rules and regulations when we have the author of life dwelling within? The holy spirit teaches us what sin is in a far greater way than the law can, and it is able to lead us into all truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with this, but there is a difference between following Torah and being under the law.
There are a plethura of people out there who do not understand that, therefor they are "scared" of it and look down upon it.
There are people who teach that Torah itself is man made, when it is not; that Torah is evil/sinful, when it's not; that it leads to destruction, when it does not.

Torah makes us aware of what sin is, and Jesus allows sin to not to be held against us.
I don't think this means to be ignorant and dilly dally as we want.
Again Torah is not sin.

It's just like a rule book.
The book has the rules, and makes you aware of the rules.
Knowing what the rules are does not make the book itself against the rules.

Now there is deffinately a wrong way to follow Torah, but there is also a right way to follow Torah, and again that's what a lot of people don't understand, and don't want to. So they feel that it is wrong as a whole due to this.

so what is the difference? Torah is law. so how can we follow torah and not follow law

And what gives you, just me, us or anyone the right to pick and chose what parts of the torah we should follow. and what parts we do not have to??

Either you follow the torah or you do not. Which is it?

 

[Biblelogic01]

We don't look down on the law, but we do look up to Jesus. Why follow rules and regulations when we have the author of life dwelling within? The holy spirit teaches us what sin is in a far greater way than the law can, and it is able to lead us into all truth.

The Holy Spirit teaches what sin is because the Holy Spirit is of God, and Torah is of God, therefor the Holy Spirit knows Torah.

For example: The Holy Spirit is going to teach us to love one another, it's going to teach us not to steal, murder, commit adultry, be selfish, etc.

All these things are found in Torah.

Jesus quotes Torah multiple times throughout the gospel.
Love the Lord your good
Love your neighbor as yourself
Do not steal
Do not murder
I can go on and on with this.

I was saved through the blood of Jesus about 10 years before I started walking in Torah. In my walk with the Holy Spirt and studying I started to walk in Torah because of the life style it is. It's healthy, moral, provides knowledge and wisdom, and I can go on and on about it.

Overall what I'm saying is Torah observance is not wrong, nor is it legalistic.

And to answer your question.
I follow rules and regulations, because they're God's rules and regulations reguardless.
God's the one who gave them and God is never changing.

 

[Biblelogic01]

so what is the difference? Torah is law. so how can we follow torah and not follow law

Torah technically means instruction, not law.
I'd love to give an explaination it, but unfortunately I'll have to continue tomorrow. I don't have a computer at home and work is kicking me out for the evening

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Torah technically means instruction, not law.
I'd love to give an explaination it, but unfortunately I'll have to continue tomorrow. I don't have a computer at home and work is kicking me out for the evening

Instruction. Law.. same difference. (law is just an english word. which means instruction)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Torah technically means instruction, not law.
I'd love to give an explaination it, but unfortunately I'll have to continue tomorrow. I don't have a computer at home and work is kicking me out for the evening

and have a good night, I look forward to it.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I cannot speak for Just-me, because I personally do not know him.
And I see what you're saying as far as between law=instruction and vise versa

As for myself I follow as much of Torah as there is able to follow, and that is part understanding that I am talking about that a plethura of people do not get.

You can divide Torah up into different types of laws.
The easiest way is to divide it up into common laws, dietary laws, and cerimonial laws.

Common law would be the laws such as the 10 commandments, love the Lord with all your heart, love your neighbor, etc.
Common law can also be split up into based off of what ones job is.
I'm not a farmer, nor a busines owner. I don't have someone on a payroll that I pay off.
There a lot of laws that are in a sense on how to run a farm/business if you look at i when it comes to common law.
My question on that would be, how would I follow those portions of Torah when I don't own a farm or business?
Question is simple, I can't, because there is no way for me to follow the laws are specific to that situation.
Now as for other parts of common law such as, if someone need help with their ox to go and help them, obviously we don't see much oxen walking around nowadays. But if I do see someone with car troulbe, I will pull over and offer assistance.

Now as far as dietary laws, that's pretty much a self explainitory subject, so I'll skip it unless you want me to go over it.

Now cermonial laws, which is the big one that has the most misunderstanding.
None of the cerimonial laws can't even be followed today, not one of them.
Cerimonially laws pretty much apply to priests only, and then some pertain to the tabernacle/temple.
To serve as a priest for the tabernacle, one must be of Levitical decent.
1 I am not of Levitical decent, and 2 there is no tabernacle/temple around, and even then if there was the ground would have to be concidered Holy or blessed by God for either of the 2 to qualify for proper ceremonies.
So in a short explanation I simply cannot follow these, again it's not possible.

So it's not a matter of pick and choose, it's a matter of what can and cannot be followed. And that's probably the biggest misunderstanding on the whole thing.

Now along with all of this, like I said in an earlier post there is a correct way to follow Torah, and there is a wrong way to follow Torah.
If one is following Torah without the light of Jesus in it, and in the fact that back then, when someone said "the word" it's a reference to Torah (because the Torah and the Tanakh[prophets] were the only scriptures back then), and Jesus is the living word, meaning Jesus is the living Torah, and one is following Torah in that meaning, then I would say it'd be correct because it is lead by Jesus and through Jesus and the Spirit.

Then there are those who follow Torah without the light of seeing Jesus in it, and they push on other people and look at themselves has a higher person than others. That would obviously be the wrong way, and it's legalistic. A huge majority of the "Hebrew's roots" movements do this. They also claim that the feasts, sabbath, and dietary laws are higher than others, along with not practicing what they preach.

I hope as far as what I've described makes sense.
Blessings.

 

[MarcR]

The Lord Jesus didn't come to establish Torah observance. The bible is quite clear about this.

If Torah observance could perfect us there would be no need for the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ.


What happens when we are born again is the law of God is placed in our hearts and minds. Its very important to know that it isn't the description of this law that is placed there. Which is what the 10 commandments are. A description of His Law. Gods actual law, Love, is placed in our hearts and minds.

The more we abide in Christ the more of this law is placed within us. Only by being born again and abiding in Christ can this love be nurtured and grown. Going back to your own Torah observance is going back to your own understanding of working at the law. Which is going back to the way of your heart of Stone so it can follow the law written on Stone in its own strength and understanding.

The way of Love, the way of the Spirit, The Way of Christ, is Faith. Our job, in faith, is to come to Him in Humility and Meekness seeking to be changed from our weak, carnal ways into His Image of Love and Peace.


Something has to be your focus. If it is Torah observance then what you are observing is condemnation and death, whether you realize it or not. It is this condemnation and death that drives us to approach Christ in the beginning. We want to be pleasing to Him who Saved us and we can't by our own works and performance.

The only way to be pleasing before God is to have Faith in Christ. All other ways fall short.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

IMO, the OT, especially the Torah, was given to persuade people that we are unable to please God by our own efforts; and that we do, in fact, need a Savior.

Any attempt to use Torah as a basis to encourage people to attempt to please God by their own efforts, IMO, misses the point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I cannot speak for Just-me, because I personally do not know him.
And I see what you're saying as far as between law=instruction and vise versa

As for myself I follow as much of Torah as there is able to follow, and that is part understanding that I am talking about that a plethura of people do not get.

You can divide Torah up into different types of laws.
The easiest way is to divide it up into common laws, dietary laws, and cerimonial laws.

Common law would be the laws such as the 10 commandments, love the Lord with all your heart, love your neighbor, etc.
Common law can also be split up into based off of what ones job is.
I'm not a farmer, nor a busines owner. I don't have someone on a payroll that I pay off.
There a lot of laws that are in a sense on how to run a farm/business if you look at i when it comes to common law.
My question on that would be, how would I follow those portions of Torah when I don't own a farm or business?
Question is simple, I can't, because there is no way for me to follow the laws are specific to that situation.
Now as for other parts of common law such as, if someone need help with their ox to go and help them, obviously we don't see much oxen walking around nowadays. But if I do see someone with car troulbe, I will pull over and offer assistance.

Now as far as dietary laws, that's pretty much a self explainitory subject, so I'll skip it unless you want me to go over it.

Now cermonial laws, which is the big one that has the most misunderstanding.
None of the cerimonial laws can't even be followed today, not one of them.
Cerimonially laws pretty much apply to priests only, and then some pertain to the tabernacle/temple.
To serve as a priest for the tabernacle, one must be of Levitical decent.
1 I am not of Levitical decent, and 2 there is no tabernacle/temple around, and even then if there was the ground would have to be concidered Holy or blessed by God for either of the 2 to qualify for proper ceremonies.
So in a short explanation I simply cannot follow these, again it's not possible.

So it's not a matter of pick and choose, it's a matter of what can and cannot be followed. And that's probably the biggest misunderstanding on the whole thing.

Now along with all of this, like I said in an earlier post there is a correct way to follow Torah, and there is a wrong way to follow Torah.
If one is following Torah without the light of Jesus in it, and in the fact that back then, when someone said "the word" it's a reference to Torah (because the Torah and the Tanakh[prophets] were the only scriptures back then), and Jesus is the living word, meaning Jesus is the living Torah, and one is following Torah in that meaning, then I would say it'd be correct because it is lead by Jesus and through Jesus and the Spirit.

Then there are those who follow Torah without the light of seeing Jesus in it, and they push on other people and look at themselves has a higher person than others. That would obviously be the wrong way, and it's legalistic. A huge majority of the "Hebrew's roots" movements do this. They also claim that the feasts, sabbath, and dietary laws are higher than others, along with not practicing what they preach.

I hope as far as what I've described makes sense.
Blessings.

ok. I see where you differentiate. Thank you for your time.

Sadly, I feel you are still missing the point of the law In that it was never intended to help us live Godly lives (how did abraham do this without the law? or noah? And that n trying to place yourself under instructions, Your missing the peace of God which supasses all understaning (a peace Israel never found, even when they followed the law.)

 

[Biblelogic01]

ok. I see where you differentiate. Thank you for your time.

Sadly, I feel you are still missing the point of the law In that it was never intended to help us live Godly lives (how did abraham do this without the law? or noah? And that n trying to place yourself under instructions, Your missing the peace of God which supasses all understaning (a peace Israel never found, even when they followed the law.)

I'm now following Torah as a, I guess you could say "righteous booster" type thing. That would be prideful and arrogant. I don't put myself above others or judge others. However as I've stated before I will defend my stance as far as to following Torah, or why I follow Torah. Along with this I'll debate the fact that following Torah is not legalistic or wrong, unless one is attempting to force it on others or use it as a means of salvation.

I do not follow it thinking this makes me better than the next person, and I don't follow it because I think it makes me more saved or less saved the next person.

A lot of times these things are automatically assumed of Torah observant people, because the legalists have basically made it look that way.

I just think the whole topic is messy due to a lack of understanding on parts of it, and what it actually is.

I've never seen someone be harmed, or harm come from Torah observance whenever it's been observed as I say "properly".

 

[FreeNChrist]

If one is following Torah without the light of Jesus in it, and in the fact that back then, when someone said "the word" it's a reference to Torah (because the Torah and the Tanakh[prophets] were the only scriptures back then), and Jesus is the living word, meaning Jesus is the living Torah, and one is following Torah in that meaning, then I would say it'd be correct because it is lead by Jesus and through Jesus and the Spirit.

Could you elaborate on this please.