Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

[just-me]

Fail 101. You just passed the buck. In any argument you have to state the premise.
Bens argument is any, ANY list of morality is hypocritical. He is very poor at concepts.

The bible is a whole book of lists and examples of morality, all of Jesus's sharing is about relationship and morality.

There is a culture in some circles to junk tradition, respect, the authority of the bible, honouring one another and ones contributions. Now anyone who puts forward a point the listing any morality is wrong is literally not worth debating with because that is completely grace with no behaviour restrictions.

On your response, I asked for clarification of what you stood for and you actually did not give it, and then attempted to mock my suggestion you are more interested in being combative than constructive.

But as you failed to be open and make your point and then paint me as the agressor, that is your style.
It is not without reason many do not like how you approach things. Do you think this honours the Lord, or are you just putting people in their place?

You have testified as to betrayal by friends, so maybe you have a track record which you are not honest with yourself about. A weapon without a cause.

The Pharisees needed to find a way to kill Jesus because He revealed their true character of hypocrisy.
John 5:44-47
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[KennethC]

E.G manipulation doesn't work with me. just-me started this thread to share, and it has gotten bombarded with false accusations, twisting things to say something that wasn't even said, and so on. don't even act like you are the forum police, and you can keep derailing, with self righteousness.

Doesn't work with me either which is why he is on ignore and still tries to lie to others why he is on ignore with me.

It has nothing to do with being questioned or having a difference of opinion, and I do not pass false witness if I say something to a person I did see them say exactly what I call them out for. If it is a misunderstanding by how they worded something I apologize and question them to see where they stand.

 

[PeterJens]

I read the post by angela - Summary - You can never loose your salvation, so everything is ok, no fear.
Armenism - You can loose your salvation based on behaviour.

Now where I stand is between the two concepts but with a layer between. Jesus loves us, so deeply and thoroughly there is nothing hidden and yet He still reaches out the hand. It is like does a parent every really abandon their child, no matter the behaviour because they are still their child, who they loved through childhood and watched grow and learn.

The other side is I know people can reject the gift of grace, of getting along side and walk away to a very dark place and there stay. Judas did this, very profoundly. Peter came close with fear of the consequences of knowing Jesus, and failed to live up to even acknowledging he knew him.

It reminds me of some marriages. You fancied that girl or guy, and it suited you to get hitched, but when push comes to shove you really do not care. Now other marriages they are close, two people who become one, a bond that cannot be broken, in which they understand each other and their limitations.

Now which couple would feel they are about to get divorced and need to work on it, and which are alive and well.

So it is walking with Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is not going to change, and your allegiance to its ideas are not good enough, you need to join at the gate, and learn to walk the road as a soldier. It is not hard as many would regard hardness, but it can be difficult and confusing.

I am not suprised people get confused along the way, because they have not fallen in love with Jesus or understood His heart, which is very plain in His preaching. If His words have just skimmed the surface and found no resonance in your soul, it is a religion with some vague list of rules. Not suprisingly selling this social group of happy campers it is not high on the agenda to talk about the rules that show what true righteousness really is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doesn't work with me either which is why he is on ignore and still tries to lie to others why he is on ignore with me.

It has nothing to do with being questioned or having a difference of opinion, and I do not pass false witness if I say something to a person I did see them say exactly what I call them out for. If it is a misunderstanding by how they worded something I apologize and question them to see where they stand.

Hypocrite.

He states I say we can be saved and continue to live in sin continuously. Thus he is a liar.

Don;t listen to him, I will continue to call him out on things, He can ignore me all he wants.

 

[ember]

Fail 101. You just passed the buck. In any argument you have to state the premise.
Bens argument is any, ANY list of morality is hypocritical. He is very poor at concepts.

The bible is a whole book of lists and examples of morality, all of Jesus's sharing is about relationship and morality.

There is a culture in some circles to junk tradition, respect, the authority of the bible, honouring one another and ones contributions. Now anyone who puts forward a point the listing any morality is wrong is literally not worth debating with because that is completely grace with no behaviour restrictions.

On your response, I asked for clarification of what you stood for and you actually did not give it, and then attempted to mock my suggestion you are more interested in being combative than constructive.

But as you failed to be open and make your point and then paint me as the agressor, that is your style.
It is not without reason many do not like how you approach things. Do you think this honours the Lord, or are you just putting people in their place?

You have testified as to betrayal by friends, so maybe you have a track record which you are not honest with yourself about. A weapon without a cause.

Peter I have absolutely no interest in you examining me or what I write

I have not failed anything; rather, you have simply demonstrated that you either do not understand what I wrote or you choose to carry a converstion from another thread into this one and I suspect the latter

please feel free to go back to your despondant musings

 

[ember]

I do not believe everybody else is wrong for I know of a number of believers who follow the same way as I do, as well do I know a number of biblical scholars I have read from that have tried for years to wake people up out of ism's and doctrines of men to come back to the pure Word of God.

I face a lot of heat on here for teaching in the same manner as the Apostle Paul did, and using that guidance of the Holy Spirit to call out the false teachings to bring them to light.

I am still ever learning through His guidance as we all are, but we are still shown in scripture that some mature faster in the faith then others and in that maturity we are to show the truth in the Word to others who have not yet been revealed that.

Thanks be to the Holy Spirit the Word of God comes easy to me in study and it all coincides and flows easily by His guidance. This is why it surprises me how some try to make it more difficult then what it really is !!!

I appreciate your responses....and the fact you acknowledge differences

To disagree with people is one thing...but what has gone on in this thread is over the top

For example, this fellow peterjens is someone who has interjected himself into this thread just lately and he is someone I truly do not get along with

you may notice he has gone out of his way to deliberately attempt to argue with me..this is actually an old thing that carries over from months ago

guess what? he's back on ignore...so, yuh know, it works both ways...I hear what you are saying, I have not been involved in the other threads that seem to have created antagonistic and personal feelings between certain members

anyway, I came back after I stated I did not have time, but something got cancelled or at least delayed

 

[ember]

I went back and read this and had to respond, because here you are jumping into the middle of on going tactic's that have been carried over from other threads.

Just-me has his reasons for pretty much ignoring Ben that have risen from past discussions that is not simply from just a disagreement with scripture.

Same with me with the usage of get behind me satan, because that was stated toward one individual I have given more than one chance to have friendly respectable debates with, but instead they continued to be unedifying and passing false allegations at me. And even though I have them on ignore and they well know this they still try to attack my character and belief in front of others instead of speaking on the topic at hand.

What fruit of the Spirit is there in doing that ???? NONE !!!

Plus remember Jesus said the same thing to Peter.................

yeah ok I never buy the Jesus said it so I can say it excuses...I just don't...Jesus gave plenty of other examples and we cannot know the heart as did Jesus

as far as ongoing arguements, well, like I said earlier in this thread, sometimes you have to let it go

as you know, I just put someone on ignore myself...for the 2nd time...

I will put someone on ignore when I believe they are normally nasty, an absolute idiot (they do exist) or petty to the point of abuse

anyway, this thread should be closed...it's disgraceful and now that I know a certain 2 members are married, things make more sense

 

[KennethC]

I appreciate your responses....and the fact you acknowledge differences

To disagree with people is one thing...but what has gone on in this thread is over the top

For example, this fellow peterjens is someone who has interjected himself into this thread just lately and he is someone I truly do not get along with

you may notice he has gone out of his way to deliberately attempt to argue with me..this is actually an old thing that carries over from months ago

guess what? he's back on ignore...so, yuh know, it works both ways...I hear what you are saying, I have not been involved in the other threads that seem to have created antagonistic and personal feelings between certain members

anyway, I came back after I stated I did not have time, but something got cancelled or at least delayed

We all have our reasons for putting another on ignore and I do not see it from just simple difference of opinions !!!

If that was the case we would all have everybody on ignore and there would be nobody to talk to besides ourselves..............LOL

yeah ok I never buy the Jesus said it so I can say it excuses...I just don't...Jesus gave plenty of other examples and we cannot know the heart as did Jesus

as far as ongoing arguements, well, like I said earlier in this thread, sometimes you have to let it go

as you know, I just put someone on ignore myself...for the 2nd time...

I will put someone on ignore when I believe they are normally nasty, an absolute idiot (they do exist) or petty to the point of abuse

anyway, this thread should be closed...it's disgraceful and now that I know a certain 2 members are married, things make more sense

We are told in the bible to imitate Christ as He set the example to follow for us, and as for a thread being shut down. No it should never be shut down unless it is clearly directed to bashing other people, but this topic can be handled in a better edifying manner instead of shut down.

Answering the OP is always a better way to go then coming in and starting off questioning the OP's motive as a couple have done.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

You will have noticed ember, who cannot. She continually fails with content, but plays the emotional card all the time.
Please ignore this tactic, it does nothing but create impression of conclusions but there is no content.

Muslims have done this with me for years, so I know the tactic from old times. Once called out, all they can do is ignore you because there is nothing left in the arsenal.

A simple lesson in this approach is ask yourself what facts where provided, and what actual positions where taken which were clearly defined. If the answer is zero, you know it is almost worthless, a slight of hand.

The facts are the grace lobby do not like confrontation with blatent sin and hypocracy, where real issues of sexual infedelity and unfaithfullness are addressed. The emphasis is on the spectacular, the spectical, the massive conferences, wealth, music and hype. The preaching is on self belief, self success, wealth, power and influence. This is not even christian in its intent, it is worldly kingdoms built on worldly pride. Now anyone who has gone through marriage and a divorce is already questionable as to their credentials. But many would just brush these real life issues aside with words like, so what, everyone is doing that. Do you see how far things have slipped, in such a short time?

 

[ember]

KennethC;2307868 We all have our reasons for putting another on ignore and I do not see it from just simple difference of opinions !!!

If that was the case we would all have everybody on ignore and there would be nobody to talk to besides ourselves..............LOL

haha...it would be like a bad marriage I guess...and also the reason some marriages go bad


We are told in the bible to imitate Christ as He set the example to follow for us, and as for a thread being shut down. No it should never be shut down unless it is clearly directed to bashing other people, but this topic can be handled in a better edifying manner instead of shut down.

Answering the OP is always a better way to go then coming in and starting off questioning the OP's motive as a couple have done.

yeah I dunno...how many you said he said she said they said threads do we need?

if actual discussion were the result, well good then...see, I will discuss with anyone that is decent about it

but some folks just gotta try to run everyone through with what they think is the sword of the spirit


well you say answering the op...agreeing with the op is prob closer to the truth in this case and others

that's almost like paying to get in LOL!

 

[PeterJens]

Lesson number 2 of people of a psychological illness disposition

There are people you will come across. They are extremely good at spotting a weakness and causing their target to get annoyed. Once they have created this response they claim innocence and they are the victim all along, and it is just because the other party hated the point they are making and they are bigotted.

Do not fall for this. Keep calm, focus on the facts or lack of them.
Just respond with clarity to the points offered.

 

[PeterJens]

Point that needs answering - List of morals, laws, commandments are important

Part of christianity is morality matters, it is Gods heart, His expression of love to people.

Those who oppose morality oppose God and are His enemies. Make no mistake about it, morality is the foundation of love and righteousness.

So if anyone suggests it is wrong to have the 10 commandments, to talk about the law, they are heretics.
The highest ethic of the men of God, of the prophets, of Jesus was to contemplate the very precepts and beauty behind the law and its foundations. If you have not understood this you do not know God or the bible or righteousness.

It is this righteousness that is imputed to us in our failure, and it is the heart of love that empowers us to live it, though our flesh would rather rebel.

So this point and issue is not a minor issue, or something to be down played, it is a cornerstone of Jesus and His ministry.

So if it is suggested discussion of this subject is a disgrace, then that person has not understood who Jesus actually is.

 

[KennethC]

KennethC;2307868 We all have our reasons for putting another on ignore and I do not see it from just simple difference of opinions !!!

If that was the case we would all have everybody on ignore and there would be nobody to talk to besides ourselves..............LOL

haha...it would be like a bad marriage I guess...and also the reason some marriages go bad


We are told in the bible to imitate Christ as He set the example to follow for us, and as for a thread being shut down. No it should never be shut down unless it is clearly directed to bashing other people, but this topic can be handled in a better edifying manner instead of shut down.

Answering the OP is always a better way to go then coming in and starting off questioning the OP's motive as a couple have done.

yeah I dunno...how many you said he said she said they said threads do we need?

if actual discussion were the result, well good then...see, I will discuss with anyone that is decent about it

but some folks just gotta try to run everyone through with what they think is the sword of the spirit


well you say answering the op...agreeing with the op is prob closer to the truth in this case and others

that's almost like paying to get in LOL!

We must look past that to see what is really being said as the OP was only set to ask the question: Where can justice, mercy, and faith be found in the law ???

That is the only point that needs to be addressed in answering this one question, but it has gotten off track to question his motives, and then went into a downward spiral of completely moving away from the OP.

I will PM you with an example of a group of 4 I dealt with on here about a month ago where these grace only (hyper-grace) people denied to answer a simple question I asked that can be answered with scripture. Why the denial ???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We must look past that to see what is really being said as the OP was only set to ask the question: Where can justice, mercy, and faith be found in the law ???

This would be true if EVERY post the person makes was not about the law. Anyone with an open mind knows it was not just a question, it was a leading question to again get us back to law.

That is the only point that needs to be addressed in answering this one question, but it has gotten off track to question his motives, and then went into a downward spiral of completely moving away from the OP.

I will PM you with an example of a group of 4 I dealt with on here about a month ago where these grace only (hyper-grace) people denied to answer a simple question I asked that can be answered with scripture. Why the denial ???

lol.. Yeah yeah,, And how many questions have you refused to answer?

 

[Angela53510]

I do not believe everybody else is wrong for I know of a number of believers who follow the same way as I do, as well do I know a number of biblical scholars I have read from that have tried for years to wake people up out of ism's and doctrines of men to come back to the pure Word of God.

I face a lot of heat on here for teaching in the same manner as the Apostle Paul did, and using that guidance of the Holy Spirit to call out the false teachings to bring them to light.

I am still ever learning through His guidance as we all are, but we are still shown in scripture that some mature faster in the faith then others and in that maturity we are to show the truth in the Word to others who have not yet been revealed that.

Thanks be to the Holy Spirit the Word of God comes easy to me in study and it all coincides and flows easily by His guidance. This is why it surprises me how some try to make it more difficult then what it really is !!!

Speaking of "isms."

ARMINIANISM is a teaching regarding salvation associated with the Dutch theologian Jacob Arminius (1560-1609). The fundamental principle in Arminianism is the rejection of predestination, and a corresponding affirmation of the freedom of the human will. Shortly after his death, the followers of Arminius (later called Arminians) presented a statement to the governing authorities of Holland in which they set forth five articles of doctrine. These were:

(1) that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute;

(2) that the Atonement is in intention universal;

(3) that man cannot of himself exercise a saving faith, but requires God's help to attain this faith;

(4) that though the grace of God is a necessary condition of human effort it does not act irresistibly in man;

(5) that believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace. In essence, the Arminians maintained that God gives indispensible help in salvation, but that ultimately it is the free will of man which decides the issue

What is Arminianism?

This is the "ism" you follow. (I don't care about subtle variations, Ken!)

As you can see, #5 is a key in your arguements. That one can "fall from grace."

I don't care what you learned in your solitary studies, without the help of the 5 fold ministry laid out in Eph. 4:11
There are no lone wolves in the Bible! I challenge you to point to one!

"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers," Eph. 4:11

What you have come up with is one of the major viewpoints on soteriology. As I have said, there are many studied theologians who believe this. It is an historical viewpoint on salvation.

But everything you write, everything you affirm comes right out of this "ism." So stop pretending the Holy Spirit led you to it. You believe an "ism." A man made doctrine or tradition.

As for the OP I will say it again, and again I say it.

The entire topic is being improperly divided, and the shows bad hermeneutics.

We do not interpret backwards from the New Testament the Old Testament. We interpret the Old Testament in light of the revelation given in the New Testament. That is - Jesus incarnation, ministry, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension, and that he is coming again to judge the living and the dead.

 

[Angela53510]

Here is a prime example of the New Testament apostles being guided to NOT follow the Old Testament with regards to ceremonial law. They have interpreted the Old Testament in light of the New Covenant!

"The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” Acts 15:6-11

The final result: NOT following the Old Testament, because Jesus has come, we are no longer required to keep the law.

"Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.” Acts 15:121

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here is a prime example of the New Testament apostles being guided to NOT follow the Old Testament with regards to ceremonial law. They have interpreted the Old Testament in light of the New Covenant!

I would like to add to this that by Peter himself saying that the law was a yoke that neither they nor their fathers were able to bear, and going so far to say that requiring such was testing GOD, contradicts the law cultist claim that grace enables us to keep the law.

But some of those who had believed from the party of the Pharisees stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to observe the law of Moses!” Acts 15:5

And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ... So now why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way those [believers in Christ from the nations] also are.” Acts 15:7, 10-11​

 

[Brother_Don]

Acts 15:19-21, Acts 15:29-31

 

[just-me]

Acts 15:19-21, Acts 15:29-31

“Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. For from the earliest times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

"To abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing.The messengers were sent off and went to Antioch, where they gathered the group together and delivered the letter. After reading it, the people were delighted by its encouragement."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

“Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. For from the earliest times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

"To abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing.The messengers were sent off and went to Antioch, where they gathered the group together and delivered the letter. After reading it, the people were delighted by its encouragement."

These were laws that non-believing Jews believed all gentiles should live under. So James was setting operational guidelines for non-Jewish believers so that they wouldn't offend non-believing Jews, which could have possibly created problems for them (they had to study in the synagogues), or alienated the non-believers from the faith.