Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

[just-me]

This here is the issue though that is being discussed here, the difference in the written focus compared to the moral/Spiritual focus.

If you focus on the physical ordinance of Deuteronomy 17:6, then you over look the moral/Spiritual aspect that Jesus said to show mercy and forgive them.

If the physical is still to be upheld as stated then Paul should have been put to death, for his murdering of Stephen and others before conversion. However the Lord showed mercy to him instead !!!

The Pharisees condoned Saul/Paul actions because it wasn't according to proper judgment, mercy and faith in God's Holy word, all 3 being revealed by "spiritual" understanding. The key to mercy is sincere repentance. Then after Paul's conversion, he was considered a heretic, and the hypocrites had him killed just like Jesus. So with that said I clearly see your point and do not disagree in any way even though the law is for the lawless which needs to be exacted physically for governing purposes, and it is good if it is exacted lawfully. 1 Timothy 1:8

 

[JaumeJ]

Learn the law as Jesus teaches and observed it. How many times have I posted this resulting in those who alrealdy knew this needed not hear it, while those who need to know could not see it or hear it. All of the law is new to the converted by the Holy Spirit, and all of it that is to be obeyed is understood.

Every time we share the wonderful work called obedience, some uninformed and unlearned comes along saying animal sacrifice , food laws, temple laws, Levitical laws. All this tells me is they have not understood the New Testament. No, not at all.

praise God always in Jesus Christ, amen. Blessed be the children of obedience in Jesus Christ, amen.

I cannot bless disobedience, ever.

Those who believe working on the Sabbath is a sin needs to go and reread the NT and see how the observance of the Sabbath has changed !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are not the thought police. You are not too good with concepts.

nope but God is, End of story. (i can not judge a person of any sin, so it is a mute point anyway)

Jesus talked about murder and anger against fellow believers. Where is there hatred?
Anger is an emotional reaction, which Jesus is saying has consequences if aimed at fellow believers.
But it is not a condemnation of anger as Jesus got angry about sin, about abuse of the temple.

Anger can still be a sin, and still be classifed as murder, which the law does not let you know how to differentiate which is righteous anger and which is not..

So how usless it is for a believer?

Lust and adultery. Jesus is saying lustfully looking at women is about committing adultery in your heart which is just as bad as the actual act. The looking lustfully is an action which shows intent, desires an interaction, which leads to sin.
The problem here is biology creates a response in people whether they choose to or not. It is not a sin to be attracted to someone, but to physically act on such desires is a sin.

so it is ok that we do these things, since it is not in the law that these are sins? nor can it be gleamed from the law that these are sins.

You are wrong thoughts are not sin. People can be ravaged by many thoughts but choose to behave righteously. This does not make them a sinner. Sins are actions that lead to death, but they come because of the lack of communion with God. We are doomed to sin because there is no hope outside communion with God and walking in love, so we will fail and fall.

so are you perfect? I know I keep asking you this, But you keep saying we must be perfect or else. So which is it?

Thoughts can be sin, because thoughts can focus on self and not others, If I spend 3 hours lusting after a person, I am not sinning?? Are you serious? why do you excuse your sin?
The NT tells us that if we know to do right and do not do it, it is sin.. Again, the law is useless in showing us what all sin is, it can not even come close to making us righteous moral people.

But such a limitation is not in the Kingdom. What you have not understood is walking in perfection is not about knowing you are doing it, because tomorrow you could fail. It is just about walking. Grace means when we fail, or if we fail, we can get up again and walk on.

yep. But this is meaningless if we can not admit we have failed no isnt it

The problem with measuring righteousness as justification is we have sins of omission, things we have failed to do but we should have done. We have sins speaking the truth, which later turned out to be untrue. But with all these limitations we are still called to be a righteous holy people.

Who are you talking to? I have said this since day one. so your talking to the wall.

You do make me laugh, because I know your position,

You do? Yet you continue to say stuff I believe, like I do not believe them, You do not know my position, ets get real. Your still angry because I had thr nerve to question you in another thread. And your on a vendetta..

but I do not understand why morality holds such fear for you?

It does not you? You are not afraid you will walk in a way that will be harmful to Gods plan and purpose in yours and others lives? That your light, which is supposed to draw people to Christ will go out, because you have sin in your life. You have no fear to work out your salvation so your not called a hypocrite?

So you love sin?? you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Do you wish to live in an unworthy manner for the Lord?

If I wished this, Than I am not Gods. and our whole conversation is sort of useless. because I have yet to repent.

Those who have been forgiven much often do much. Maybe you spent your life being "righteous" so have tired of it and it seems a burden you are now free from. I do not relate to this because righteousness for me is just doing the right thing.

And you know me? Wow dude, You think I am a pharisee?

Your making yourself look like a fool. Poeple who have been here and KNOW me can see right through you You better stop. For you do not understand who you are talking to.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

OMGosh really................
Everything we do we are to do it for God first including the observance of the Sabbath, and the observance of the Sabbath now is resting in the righteous works of Christ.
To follow them in our lives instead of doing our own thing, as His way is light and His commands are not burdensome.
Resting in Christ does not mean we don't have to do nothing, it means that His ways are easier to walk in as it all hangs on walking in LOVE !!!
1 Corinthians 13 tells us exactly what LOVE does.....................

I didn't ask you for your opinion of what scripture says. I requested that you show me where in scripture it says that we are to do the sabbath for GOD. You can't because it's not there.

The 4th commandment required that Israel do no physical labor on the sabbath so that they would recognize that GOD was the one making them holy. So the intent of the command was for them to recognize GOD's sanctifying work in their lives.

Now under the new covenant, the abiding holy spirit is the witness that GOD is sanctifying us. So it's not (as you say) that Saturdays are for resting in the righteous works of Christ (though there's nothing wrong with that), but that resting in the righteous works of Christ who is making us holy fulfills the intent of the 4th commandment. That can be observed at any moment of any day.

 

[just-me]

We are not the thought police. You are not too good with concepts.
Jesus talked about murder and anger against fellow believers. Where is there hatred?
Anger is an emotional reaction, which Jesus is saying has consequences if aimed at fellow believers.
But it is not a condemnation of anger as Jesus got angry about sin, about abuse of the temple.

Lust and adultery. Jesus is saying lustfully looking at women is about committing adultery in your heart which is just as bad as the actual act. The looking lustfully is an action which shows intent, desires an interaction, which leads to sin.
The problem here is biology creates a response in people whether they choose to or not. It is not a sin to be attracted to someone, but to physically act on such desires is a sin.

You are wrong thoughts are not sin. People can be ravaged by many thoughts but choose to behave righteously. This does not make them a sinner. Sins are actions that lead to death, but they come because of the lack of communion with God.
We are doomed to sin because there is no hope outside communion with God and walking in love, so we will fail and fall.

But such a limitation is not in the Kingdom. What you have not understood is walking in perfection is not about knowing you are doing it, because tomorrow you could fail. It is just about walking. Grace means when we fail, or if we fail, we can get up again and walk on.

The problem with measuring righteousness as justification is we have sins of omission, things we have failed to do but we should have done. We have sins speaking the truth, which later turned out to be untrue. But with all these limitations we are still called to be a righteous holy people.

You do make me laugh, because I know your position, but I do not understand why morality holds such fear for you? Do you wish to live in an unworthy manner for the Lord? Those who have been forgiven much often do much. Maybe you spent your life being "righteous" so have tired of it and it seems a burden you are now free from. I do not relate to this because righteousness for me is just doing the right thing.

You defined it well brother.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:14-15

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

Simple

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

 

[KennethC]

Learn the law as Jesus teaches and observed it. How many times have I posted this resulting in those who alrealdy knew this needed not hear it, while those who need to know could not see it or hear it. All of the law is new to the converted by the Holy Spirit, and all of it that is to be obeyed is understood.

Every time we share the wonderful work called obedience, some uninformed and unlearned comes along saying animal sacrifice , food laws, temple laws, Levitical laws. All this tells me is they have not understood the New Testament. No, not at all.

praise God always in Jesus Christ, amen. Blessed be the children of obedience in Jesus Christ, amen.

I cannot bless disobedience, ever.

Yes just like some want to argue and call people legalists for wanting to follow laws, but then in the next breath argue about keeping one the way it was mentioned in the OT when the NT shows us it is observed differently.

Just like other parts of the OT the Sabbath is a shadow of the rest that we now have in Christ, that is fulfilled through Him and His righteous works.

A man was put to death just for picking up sticks on the Sabbath in the OT (Numbers 15:32-36), and each time a person was caught breaking the Sabbath in the NT and they questioned Jesus on it. Jesus did not have them put to death, or say they were sinning !!!

 

[PeterJens]

Carnal thinking is SELF thinking (it takes for self. it hurts others, it does not care about others, it uses others)

All commands are broken by Carnal thinking, it is what is the power behind ALL sin.

Ok our theology is different. You put the cause of failure of mankind is because we focus on self.

My theology says we fail because we are alone, individuals who feel betrayed and shut love out from our hearts because of hurts. This creates spiritual blindness, so we literally do not see the hurts we create by our actions and are driven by our emotions and self justification so all our actions are ok even when sinful.

Without love and a care or concern for the other, nothing matters. Jesus breaks this denial of love, breaks in and undermines the hatred and bitterness we hold others in because he says you are not alone, you are loved and cared for, there is a real hope worthy of being vulnerable for. Jesus forgives our sins, and accepts us, so we can begin to open up, be healed of our hurts, accept we are no longer alone and walk in true fellowship with him.

Righteousness is therefore no longer a justification of who we are but the fruit of love breaking out from within, knowing we know the Father and He loves us.

In the world of darkness, the law is the only indicator of the level of failure society has. In the world of the Kingdom it is the banner of rejoicing of how far we have come.

But you would rather condemn the people of God, and not uplift righteousness as a goal, to which Jesus and the apostles called us.

Now I asked you about the level of freedom you claimed, liberty, but you did not answer.

I wonder what fellowship you actually have with the Lord, and what it means to you. I love Jesus and all he has brought me, because he has brought me life, freedom, integrity, honour, love, mercy and grace, and I owe Him everything, and I desire to serve Him is anyway he calls me to follow. Now this is me, but I get the impression you feel I do not know Jesus, which I find odd, because your Jesus must be from another town.

 

[just-me]

Yes just like some want to argue and call people legalists for wanting to follow laws, but then in the next breath argue about keeping one the way it was mentioned in the OT when the NT shows us it is observed differently.

Just like other parts of the OT the Sabbath is a shadow of the rest that we now have in Christ, that is fulfilled through Him and His righteous works.

A man was put to death just for picking up sticks on the Sabbath in the OT (Numbers 15:32-36), and each time a person was caught breaking the Sabbath in the NT and they questioned Jesus on it. Jesus did not have them put to death, or say they were sinning !!!

The true believer is changed in order to see the law of God in a spiritual aspect as it was originally intended from the first revelation to those that trust in God's word. It's spiritual. Always has been, and always will be (smile)

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. James 4:10

Jesus came to us in order to rightly define the law's original intention thereof.

We are no longer under it because we are lifted up to a higher level in Christ. That's cool!

 

[KennethC]

I didn't ask you for your opinion of what scripture says. I requested that you show me where in scripture it says that we are to do the sabbath for GOD. You can't because it's not there.

The 4th commandment required that Israel do no physical labor on the sabbath so that they would recognize that GOD was the one making them holy. So the intent of the command was for them to recognize GOD's sanctifying work in their lives.

Now under the new covenant, the abiding holy spirit is the witness that GOD is sanctifying us. So it's not (as you say) that Saturdays are for resting in the righteous works of Christ (though there's nothing wrong with that), but that resting in the righteous works of Christ who is making us holy fulfills the intent of the 4th commandment. That can be observed at any moment of any day.

Everything we do we are to do it for God..............1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17-23

 

[JaumeJ]

All these experts and righteous folks telling others, myself included, just what I ought to be doing in regards to pleasing Jesus, and I really do try to convey that all we need do is hear Him, and try our best to follow His Example.

Almost always it is included only Jesus Christ was perfect in the flesh, while we, myself foremost, who try to do the aabove are not perfect, but I look forward to the promise being fulfilled that the Work begun in me by my Father will be completed, by Him, on His great and glorious Day. Until that day, I will be satisfied with His working in me to this perfection as I do my best to please Him in my obedience.

Actually, just today I was prayer thinking to our Dad, when I am with you in heaven I would not mind having a nice beard. Then I though, whoa there buster. When I am with God in Heaven I want to be exactly as He would have me be. Can you believe I was telling our Father what to do? God forgive me on that. His perfection in me will be just that, perfect. In you and all others who believe Him too. (I am relieved knowing God knows my frame and just how off I can be at times.) I wonder if He gets a smile when I do these things?

Yes just like some want to argue and call people legalists for wanting to follow laws, but then in the next breath argue about keeping one the way it was mentioned in the OT when the NT shows us it is observed differently.

Just like other parts of the OT the Sabbath is a shadow of the rest that we now have in Christ, that is fulfilled through Him and His righteous works.

A man was put to death just for picking up sticks on the Sabbath in the OT (Numbers 15:32-36), and each time a person was caught breaking the Sabbath in the NT and they questioned Jesus on it. Jesus did not have them put to death, or say they were sinning !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Just like other parts of the OT the Sabbath is a shadow of the rest that we now have in Christ, that is fulfilled through Him and His righteous works.

Your doctrine makes no sense. You say the sabbath is a shadow of the rest we now have in Christ, but advocate resting in the shadow! What foolishness! The light is the rest.

 

[ukok102nak]

:blush: This are one of those many things that
we know and learned about love . ...
Luke: 18. 11. The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican.
12. I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O god, be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather that the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.
~» KJV version ~«
:ty:

 

[just-me]

All these experts and righteous folks telling others, myself included, just what I ought to be doing in regards to pleasing Jesus, and I really do try to convey that all we need do is hear Him, and try our best to follow His Example.

Almost always it is included only Jesus Christ was perfect in the flesh, while we, myself foremost, who try to do the aabove are not perfect, but I look forward to the promise being fulfilled that the Work begun in me by my Father will be completed, by Him, on His great and glorious Day. Until that day, I will be satisfied with His working in me to this perfection as I do my best to please Him in my obedience.

Actually, just today I was prayer thinking to our Dad, when I am with you in heaven I would not mind having a nice beard. Then I though, whoa there buster. When I am with God in Heaven I want to be exactly as He would have me be. Can you believe I was telling our Father what to do? God forgive me on that. His perfection in me will be just that, perfect. In you and all others who believe Him too. (I am relieved knowing God knows my frame and just how off I can be at times.) I wonder if He gets a smile when I do these things?

You are not alone my friend!

 

[KennethC]

Your doctrine makes no sense. You say the sabbath is a shadow of the rest we now have in Christ, but advocate resting in the shadow! What foolishness! The light is the rest.

Please do not twist my words to say something I never said, for I never said we rest in the shadow.

The Sabbath day rest in the OT was a shadow of the rest we have in Christ now in the NT !!!

You can still observe the Sabbath day as mentioned in the OT, but it in no way is a sin or wrong to work on it to take care of and support your family in the NT.

 

[just-me]

This are one of those many things that
we know and learned about love . ... Luke: 18. 11. The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican.
12. I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O god, be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather that the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.
~» KJV version ~«
:ty:

The humble are justified, not the proud. Amen

 

[KennethC]

All these experts and righteous folks telling others, myself included, just what I ought to be doing in regards to pleasing Jesus, and I really do try to convey that all we need do is hear Him, and try our best to follow His Example.

Almost always it is included only Jesus Christ was perfect in the flesh, while we, myself foremost, who try to do the aabove are not perfect, but I look forward to the promise being fulfilled that the Work begun in me by my Father will be completed, by Him, on His great and glorious Day. Until that day, I will be satisfied with His working in me to this perfection as I do my best to please Him in my obedience.

Actually, just today I was prayer thinking to our Dad, when I am with you in heaven I would not mind having a nice beard. Then I though, whoa there buster. When I am with God in Heaven I want to be exactly as He would have me be. Can you believe I was telling our Father what to do? God forgive me on that. His perfection in me will be just that, perfect. In you and all others who believe Him too. (I am relieved knowing God knows my frame and just how off I can be at times.) I wonder if He gets a smile when I do these things?

Yes He is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), which means He helps us by the Holy Spirit to confirm our lives to His way; not the other way around.

We are told a couple times we are to imitate Him and how He walked, unlike Him though we do struggle at times and His guidance will lift us back up if we continue to be obedient to Him.

I count it all joy that He is molding us to be more like Him, and the persecution from those who deny that working power in us !!!

 

[ukok102nak]

:blush: This are one of those many things that
we know and learned about love . ...
Luke: 18. 11. The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican.
12. I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O god, be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather that the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.
~» KJV version ~«
:ty:

What the :shock:
We ain't see that coming :rofl:
Ephesians: 3. 18. May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19. And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21. Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
~:» KJV «:~
Its happening again . ...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Everything we do we are to do it for God..............1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17-23

Those verses don't say anything about doing anything for GOD (at least in the Greek), but doing whatever we do into GOD's glory, and as to GOD instead of men. "Doing things for GOD" is just works of self-righteousness based on a mental image of what GOD is. IMO, your language betrays your doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok our theology is different. You put the cause of failure of mankind is because we focus on self.

Actually, if you study scripture. that is exactly what God is saying, that is exactly how the law and prophets can be contained in two commands, Love God and Love Neighbor.

Love is not self focused, thus would never sin against anyone, including God.

It is when we fail at love, and think inward that we sin.

My theology says we fail because we are alone, individuals who feel betrayed and shut love out from our hearts because of hurts. This creates spiritual blindness, so we literally do not see the hurts we create by our actions and are driven by our emotions and self justification so all our actions are ok even when sinful.

Just another way of saying, No one cares for me, so I have to take care of myself. so everything I do is self motivating.

You just word it different than I do.

Without love and a care or concern for the other, nothing matters. Jesus breaks this denial of love, breaks in and undermines the hatred and bitterness we hold others in because he says you are not alone, you are loved and cared for, there is a real hope worthy of being vulnerable for. Jesus forgives our sins, and accepts us, so we can begin to open up, be healed of our hurts, accept we are no longer alone and walk in true fellowship with him.

Or as the famous words of scripture states, We LOVE because HE FIRST LOVED US..

we realise taking care of self never worked, and we are no longer alone. we have faith God will take care of us, so we can focus on loving others.

Love does not harm..

God said it, not me.

Righteousness is therefore no longer a justification of who we are but the fruit of love breaking out from within, knowing we know the Father and He loves us.

see what I just said, yes we agree..

Further proof however, you do not know what I think or what I believe.

or you would not try to show me what I already know and trust fully in.

ths is the christian walk.

We love because he loved us first.

Love does not harm, so it will not sin.

we win when our flesh takes over, and we draw back to self.

In the world of darkness, the law is the only indicator of the level of failure society has. In the world of the Kingdom it is the banner of rejoicing of how far we have come.

the worlds prisons are full because these laws can not make anyone do what is right.

Yes, the law brings us to Christ, but once we come there, We have no need of a tutor.

But you would rather condemn the people of God, and not uplift righteousness as a goal, to which Jesus and the apostles called us.

Now I asked you about the level of freedom you claimed, liberty, but you did not answer.

if yuo think these are people of God. I fear for your eternity. Because they are trying to save self. not let God save them.

They have not come to the schoolmaster. they are still trying to live by the schoolmaster.

I wonder what fellowship you actually have with the Lord, and what it means to you. I love Jesus and all he has brought me, because he has brought me life, freedom, integrity, honour, love, mercy and grace, and I owe Him everything, and I desire to serve Him is anyway he calls me to follow. Now this is me, but I get the impression you feel I do not know Jesus, which I find odd, because your Jesus must be from another town.

I do not know what you feel

in one breath, you say we love because God loves us

In another breath, you say we obey God by following rules and regulations. and if we do not live by some guideline, we are not saved, or I am afraid to say, you may fear we lose salvation.

if thats the case. You trust self not God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please do not twist my words to say something I never said, for I never said we rest in the shadow.
The Sabbath day rest in the OT was a shadow of the rest we have in Christ now in the NT !!!
You can still observe the Sabbath day as mentioned in the OT, but it in no way is a sin or wrong to work on it to take care of and support your family in the NT.

I didn't twist your words. The sabbath is a shadow. You advocate resting in a shadow of Christ. I don't ever hear you say to just rest in Christ.