Is the Devil bound right now...?

[valiant]

Hello Bowman,

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is a future, detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. They will take place literally according to each judgment.

yes they have done so throughout history when God has had His days and exercised His wrath (Rom 1.18 ff). They are not future but have occurred throughout history. Only the final part is future.

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankindon the face of the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause
the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zeph.1)

This is called the final judgment. See Rev 19.

"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the pure gold of Ophir." (Isaiah 13:12)

This is probably referring to the saved who are as pure gold before God. It makes clear that they will be a small minority.

God is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and this will occur during that last seven years.

It says nothing about the last seven years. Which last seven years? The fictitious ones invented by the perverters of Dan 9? This has been going on throughout history.

None
of those events of wrath described in Revelation have been fulfilled.

Of course they have. You are simply ignorant of history.

The only way that you could bring fulfillment to them is to symbolize or spiritualize them, which would be to ignore the literal meaning scripture.

LOL do you believe that four horsemen are ACTUALLY going to ride as described? How touching.

But the antichrists, the wars, the famine, the pestilence and the earthquakes are certainly literal. You really have no idea what your opponents believe . You really should try to depict them honestly.

The fourth seal and the sixth trumpet are the only two places that list the percentages of fatalities, those being a fourth and a third of the population, respectively.

ye and war, pestilence and famine have decimated the world's population like this in the past. You are simply ignorant of history.

With just those two, the total fatalities based on 7 billion would be 4.4 billion people alone and that is not counting the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 or the seven bowl judgments.

You do appear to gloat over wholesale death. But the world has constantly experienced wholesale death.,

Regarding Rev.5:6-9, this was a vision of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, when in the future he will take the scroll from God the Father and will begin to open the scroll, which represents all of the information contained in the book of Revelation, which will initiate the wrath of God by opening that first seal.

No it is a picture of Jesus taking and opening the scroll of history from 1st century AD onwards in accord with Matt 24.5 ff.

Conclusion: The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are actual events of wrath that will take place in the near future to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle human government in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom.

They have already mainly occurred throughout history. They will certainly continue and finally issue in the final judgment. There will be no failing millennial kingdom. That is a myth and a fantasy. It is all the invention of these last two centuries who believed the Lord would come in their day and that He had talked about nothing else in the OT. There is nothing sadder than the misinterpretation of Scripture which ignores all the fulfilments in the past.

The Rock (Christ) that falls on the feet of the statue, which represents all human government, is smashed to pieces like chaff on the threshing floor and blown away by the wind never to be found again (end of human government).

So Christ is to be smashed to pieces? Well that's a new one. What it is really describing is the final judgment.

But the rock that strikes the statue will become a huge mountain and fill the whole earth (Christ's millennial kingdom on earth).

But I thought you said the rock was Christ?. It seems to me that you think you can make it anything you like while switching from one thing to another lol and you call it taking it literally? it is fantasy.

It is actually the eternal kingdom

 

[wolfwint]

Dear Valliant, i can from acts 2,30-36 not see thatthe Lord is ruling from heaven. He is present sitting to the rigth of God the father, till he will final come. Also acts 2, 30-36 you cant take for what is mentioned in revelation, when the Lord will sit on the throne of David to reign over his choosen volk the jews.
I went little through this threat and i suppose Bowmans question was not a real question where he want a answer for, but for to spread his theological sight.
Well, when we all have the written word of God in front of us. But we have different theories about the meaning. This is because we use differnt hermeneutic and exigesic tools. So it is not possible to come to an unit sight.
We have our understanding and you have yours. To debate is fruitless. Only what we can gain is, to defend what we believe is right.
For shure, the fact is. It will come as the Lord has revealed it. Doesn´t matter what we believe. Some of us will then be surprised and others will not.
So again back to the question. So by looking into our present world I cant see that satan is bound as it is mentioned in Revelation 20, 1-3. But According 2. Thess. chapter 2, satan is not fully at work, it will be much more worse when the Holy Spirit left. I believe this will be when the belivers (world wide church) are taken away from the earth to meet the Lord in the air (1. Thess.4,16.17) And the time of antichrist begins.
Lets see

 

[valiant]

Dear Valliant, i can from acts 2,30-36 not see thatthe Lord is ruling from heaven. He is present sitting to the rigth of God the father, till he will final come.

The Lord as part of the triune God is seated on His Father's throne. The resurrected body of Christ had to be depicted as at the right hand of God in order to distinguish the 'physical' from the Spirit. But these are pictures meant for us as humans based on earthly scenarios. It is very questionable whether He Who is pure Spirit sits on a throne. He is not spatial..

Acts 2.30-36 is crystal clear unless people try to fit it into their preconceived ideas.


Peter makes clear that Jesus has sat on David's throne (has been made king in the line of David). The sitting on David's throne is paralleled with the resurrection (Acts 2.30-31). It is then finally underlined that God has made Him both LORD and MESSIAH (Davidic king), this Jesus Whom you crucified, That is what Peter meant. But of course it does not fit in with Darbyism so many play around with it. They twist it to mean what they want.

Also acts 2, 30-36 you cant take for what is mentioned in revelation, when the Lord will sit on the throne of David to reign over his choosen volk the jews.

Nowhere in Revelation does it say that Jesus will reign over His chosen folk the Jews. The Jews are a rejected people. It is the true Israel (Rom 11.12-24) over whom Jesus NOW reigns, and we reign with Him (Eph 2.5-6) along with those who have gone before (Rev 20.4-5).

For shure, the fact is. It will come as the Lord has revealed it. Doesn´t matter what we believe. Some of us will then be surprised and others will not.

True. Be prepared for a pleasant surprise when Christ comes and immediately set up His eternal kingdom (in which He will not end up by being a failure).

So again back to the question. So by looking into our present world I cant see that satan is bound as it is mentioned in Revelation 20, 1-3. But According 2. Thess. chapter 2, satan is not fully at work, it will be much more worse when the Holy Spirit left.

Yes Satan is restrained (bound, chained) at this present time until 'he who restrains' (the restraining angel) is taken out of the way. That is what both 2 Thess 2, Rev 9.1-11 and Rev 20 1-3 all make clear.

I believe this will be when the belivers (world wide church) are taken away from the earth to meet the Lord in the air (1. Thess.4,16.17) And the time of antichrist begins.
Lets see

Certainly the church will be raptured but that will be the end of history. There will be no time of antichrist after that

 

[Cassian]

The gospel is the good news of Jesus, it is salvation by grace through faith. It is not what will happen at the end of the age..



Your the one that holds scripture alone is a faulty doctrine, that the men of your church hold more power. Not me..

I hold that Christ, Not your church, or the men of your church , is the truth and the way.



Well you say Satan is bound, he is not
You claim Jesus already destroyed the gentile kingdoms and Daniel is fulfilled. Yet it is not. (the roman empire has not even done what Daniel has said it would do completely yet, so it could not be fulfilled)

Of course. no one can prove anythign to you. You put your faiht in men, Not gods word. so no one can say a word.


lol.. No they were derived by your church in the 300's And since your church destroyed all records pree 300's which opposed what they believed. You can not prove otherwise.

Thats why we stick to the word not men.

Lots of rationalization with no evidence to support them. Your biggest problem is that scripture does not do what you think it does considering this point....

Your the one that holds scripture alone is a faulty doctrine,

I would like you to show any evidence that sola scriptura is not a faulty doctrine. That is a rhetorical question since there is no evidence to show it is not faulty. You are so mired in the quagmire that you cannot see that it is all based on man made interpretations. Scripture alone is itself a purely protestant created false teaching that has birthed all of these theories that abound just in this thread, let alone most of the rest of scripture. You cannot even provide evidence as to which theory is supposedly more scriptural than the others stated in this thread. Most presenters are so egotistical that they don't even give credit where credit is due for their interpretations. They arrogantly need to push the idea that the theory is solely theirs and came to them from studying the Bible. Which is why men such as Walvoord does not fully agree with Darby or Schofield or even with his contempories. If a man's name is ascribed to it, it is always a false teaching.

This thread is actually an excellent exercise in false teaching. One false teacher shows their theory is better, thus more scriptural than the other false theory. They actually eliminate themselves, one never needs to be presented the Truth to determine something is false.

The Truth was given ONCE, not many times, and especially not to many different men throughout history. If it has not been believed from the beginning without change it is a false teaching.

As to whether Satan is bound you have not done your sola scriptura study very well. Scripturally, without all the false teachings, it means Christ defeated death. If He is not bound as you believe, you have even a much bigger problem than some false theory of premillennialism, you need Christ to still come and redeem us from death and sin. When will that happen? Is that before or after premillinnialism? Apparently you really don't believe scripture, but ONLY either your interpretation or some other man's interpretation. You are caught in the same disbelief as the Jews who are still waiting for their Messiah.

 

[DP]

Why........?

I don't any brethren in Christ here on earth sitting upon thrones ruling with Jesus with Him upon David's throne just yet. David's throne was and is an 'earthly' throne, not a heavenly one. Also, I don't see any of the Ezekiel 40 through 48 Scripture happenning yet, which is for the Rev.20 "thousand years" and thereafter. I believe in the pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ, as written, which is what the early Church also believed.

 

[Cassian]

I don't any brethren in Christ here on earth sitting upon thrones ruling with Jesus with Him upon David's throne just yet. David's throne was and is an 'earthly' throne, not a heavenly one. Also, I don't see any of the Ezekiel 40 through 48 Scripture happenning yet, which is for the Rev.20 "thousand years" and thereafter. I believe in the pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ, as written, which is what the early Church also believed.

I believe in the pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ, as written, which is what the early Church also believed.

could you provide the evidence that the early Church believed in a premillennial return of Christ.

 

[valiant]

I don't any brethren in Christ here on earth sitting upon thrones ruling with Jesus with Him upon David's throne just yet. David's throne was and is an 'earthly' throne, not a heavenly one. Also, I don't see any of the Ezekiel 40 through 48 Scripture happenning yet, which is for the Rev.20 "thousand years" and thereafter. I believe in the pre-millennial return of Jesus Christ, as written, which is what the early Church also believed.

There is no mention of a pre-millennialist anywhere in history before 19th century AD. You are just imagining it. There is no evidence whatsoever that it is 'what the early church believed'. That is fantasy.

Show me anywhere in the New Testament where it says that David's throne will be an earthly throne!! Acts 2.30-36 demonstrates the exact OPPOSITE. You spout these things off with no evidence whatsoever. All you have is your Satanically misled colleagues.

Ezekiel's Temple was established in Ezekiel's day, He described an actual Temple which he saw when God took him to the mountain outside Jerusalem. It was a God provided Temple given in order to demonstrate that He had not deserted those among His people who were true which, like the armies of angels in Elisha's time could only be seen by those to whom God revealed it..

The premillennial return of Christ is written of NOWHERE. It is all surmise built on bad exegesis.

 

[cupid]

Cupid,

Young Skywalker, you are mistaken about a great many things. These are not the droids you're looking for. For one, it is not about me wanting Jesus to "come now and stay only 1000 years" but it is what scripture states and it wouldn't matter to me anyway because I will have already received my glorified body by that time. And two, after Satan is bound in the Abyss for that thousand years, he will be let out just long enough to gather Gog and MaGog (short time) and then he will be directly thrown into the lake of fire. He's not going on vacation after the thousand years!

According to scripture, after the end of the thousand years, the great white throne judgment takes place and following that John sees the new heaven, new earth and the New Jerusalem, eternity. That is the chronological order of events according to scripture.

So to you, Christianity came and all the Roman Empire dropped the mythological gods and converted.
But that was'nt the 1000 years during the Dark Ages?
And you don't see the nakedness, the abortions, the sexual promiscuity, the 50% illegitimate babies, single mother on Welfare,... sex, sex, sex...?

Satan isn't here right now?
The monks weren't the 144,000 virgins??

 

[cupid]

Now let me make NOTE of a repetitive set of events. Whenever you (Cupid), Bowman, and a few others show up on ANY THREAD; the building one another up in brotherly love CEASES, and all you and your clan do is stir up discord among the brethren.

Proverbs 6:14-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly; Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Have you EVER joined a thread just to encourage the brethren?

... you aren't encouraged by seeing history fulfill Revelation...?

How about these verse which support Rev 6:12-17:

RRev. 20:4And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism):
and I saw, (visions), the souls, (the spirit-like psyches), of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, (Old Testament and New), and which had not worshiped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (of the Roman economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image(on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands; and they lived (as angels in the minds of Christians who have followed, these beheaded saints, in the memories of congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).

Do you see history here showing the Bible was right?

 

[cupid]

Dear Bowman, there are no biblical positions to find which show that the Devil is bound now. If you look into our world the answer is clear.

Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (this dragon, the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores, that old serpent, cultural Paganism), into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him, (Satan), up (Monasticism for 1000 years so as to inhibit the culture of libidinal freedom and sexual excess), and set a seal, (the Cross), upon him, that he (could not maintain that pagan, astrological/mythological sexually promiscuous religious subculture that) should deceive the nations (in the Western world) no more (with his pagan culture), ...
... till the thousand years (of the Dark Age of Monasticism) should be fulfilled (and the Renaissance of the Beast begin):
and after that, (in The Renaissance), he must be loosed (to open the adolescent subculture of ever increasing sexual permissiveness) a little season (of @ 1000 years: [Rev 20:2]).

 

[cupid]

That sounds like 'revisionist history' about the Book of Revelation, which per tradition the early Church agreed that Apostle John penned it while in prison on the Isle of Patmos in the time of the Roman emperor Domitian (96 A.D.). Its English translation comes to us from the ancient hand written copy of the Greek Bible, Codex Sinaiticus. Jews can claim what they want, but per the Greek is how it came down to the early Christian Church as a Christian writing.

What matters to me is that Jews accept Revelation after chapter 3.
They can't and won't say this writing is void because its Christian, like they say about the NT in general.

Revelation is true stuff for Jews and Christians.

 

[cupid]

Let's see, Satan is not a flesh man, yet he is a man in the 'image' sense, for that is the image which God also made the angels with. Satan is a heavenly being, a cherub, and is still in the heavenly dimension. Also, since there are only... two different dimensions of existence revealed in God's Word (this earthly one, and the heavenly one), and we know per God's Word that Satan is not bound in chains in the heavenly prison pit until Christ's second coming, then yes, he still has a revolving door between the heavenly realm and this earth.

The Jews say angels are intelligences which talk to us mentally.

"he great Jewish sage, Maimonides, talks about them (i.e.; the angel-like "messengers" that speak to us subconsciously) at length in his Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Yisodei HaTorah (Laws of the Foundations of the Torah).

While he meticulously classifies angelic rankings in his rationalistic system.
Maimonides equates them with the Aristotelian "intelligences" that mediate between the spheres.
As such they are conscious and govern the spheres in their motion...
... but in his Aristotelian context Maimonides is saying they are forms of natural causation rather than supernatural beings.


He also expands his definition to include natural phenomenon and even human psychology where he refers to the libidinous impulse as the "angel of lust".


That is like our Libido...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (this dragon, the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores, that old serpent, cultural Paganism),

"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.[/quote]

The verse above leaves not doubt as to who is being spoken of by listing a few of his known designations, the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan. The ancient serpent is in reference to that serpent who deceived Eve in the garden and "the devil" with the definite article, is always in reference to Satan, the accuser, Baalzeboul, i.e. The devil -- the person of Satan. It is the Satan, the prince of demons that will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for a thousand years and not a subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores, cultural Paganism, but the actual prince of demons known as Satan. All of those other definitions that you gave are self applied conjecture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Maimonides is saying they are forms of natural causation rather than supernatural beings.

Then Maimonides has been deceived, for Satan and the powers of darkness would love for humanity to believe that they don't really exist and that they are only "natural causation," whatever that is. I am positive that Jesus and the apostles were not driving "natural causation" out of the bodies of people, but actual unclean spirits. For Jesus said:

"When an unclean spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.” (Luke 11:24-26)

"They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!” For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places."
Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss. A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission. When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned. (Luke 8:31)

Nope, they don't seem to be "natural causation" to me, but literal demonic beings possessing people.

 

[popeye]

There is no mention of a pre-millennialist anywhere in history before 19th century AD. You are just imagining it. There is no evidence whatsoever that it is 'what the early church believed'. That is fantasy.

Show me anywhere in the New Testament where it says that David's throne will be an earthly throne!! Acts 2.30-36 demonstrates the exact OPPOSITE. You spout these things off with no evidence whatsoever. All you have is your Satanically misled colleagues.

Ezekiel's Temple was established in Ezekiel's day, He described an actual Temple which he saw when God took him to the mountain outside Jerusalem. It was a God provided Temple given in order to demonstrate that He had not deserted those among His people who were true which, like the armies of angels in Elisha's time could only be seen by those to whom God revealed it..

The premillennial return of Christ is written of NOWHERE. It is all surmise built on bad exegesis.

Yes it is.
Rev 19 has the saints returning to earth FROM HEAVEN BEFORE THE 1K.
Mat 25 has the groom JESUS TAKING THE BRIDE TO HEAVEN.

IOW,Your doctrine only works in your circles
Not in the arena of a bible study.

 

[popeye]

could you provide the evidence that the early Church believed in a premillennial return of Christ.

The formation of Israel in 1947 .

Suddenly those historicists' did a double take.

To no avail of course

 

[Cassian]

The formation of Israel in 1947 .

Suddenly those historicists' did a double take.

To no avail of course

I'm not speaking about the false teachings that were begun in the 19th century. I'm asking for evidence that the early Church believed in premillennialism which you claimed they did.

 

[cupid]

Then Maimonides has been deceived, for Satan and the powers of darkness would love for humanity to believe that they don't really exist and that they are only "natural causation," whatever that is. I am positive that Jesus and the apostles were not driving "natural causation" out of the bodies of people, but actual unclean spirits. For Jesus said:

"When an unclean spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.” (Luke 11:24-26)

"They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!” For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places."
Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss. A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission. When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned. (Luke 8:31)

Nope, they don't seem to be "natural causation" to me, but literal demonic beings possessing people.

...hmmm,...
Things like our Libido are mental facilities that developed over time and have powerful effects on us.
When we are like a wolf pack, the collective libidos has a social effect upon the whole group.

We see this happen in combat, when a team of soldiers fight battles together.
The comraderie which binds them together is the libido at work.
It is the aim in the weapons, and the pulling of the trigger, too.

Don't discount these archetypes too easily.

 

[popeye]

I'm not speaking about the false teachings that were begun in the 19th century. I'm asking for evidence that the early Church believed in premillennialism which you claimed they did.

To deify a group is a rabbit trail.

Take a look at the church fathers argument on the trinity.
You base an entire belief system on fickle humanoids (the early church).

Enter 1947. HELLO.....GAME CHANGER

 

[DP]

could you provide the evidence that the early Church believed in a premillennial return of Christ.

You'll learn more, and better, by going research that for yourself instead having me try to teach you. It's readily available in the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st century A.D.