How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[posthuman]

Robert, don't see where you've reflected on my comments about the just dying for the unjust according to the law - in sacrifice, and in Peter's description of Christ's own propitiation for us.

hopefully you're turning that over in your mind and coming to grips with it, not ignoring the point altogether, because i think it conflicts with how you presented your line of thinking through the first several pages of this thread.

this is all very interesting and fruitful to think on, by the way, thanks for bringing this whole thing up -- and welcome to CC - don't think we've said that yet?

love,
post

 

[onlinebuddy]

Posthuman, I have skimmed through your latest posts as well.
Thanks for your time and your effort. There are still some things that are beyond my understanding. I will read it again and check if it makes sense to me.

 

[PeterJens]

I had a conceptual leap while thinking about this idea, does God justify a failed sinner, or cleanse the vessel and plant a new seed of life, into which the vessel grows.

In a sense when we are born we are a set of systems and impulses that learn an environment, are programmed to respond in various ways and we learn to become human. Some of what Jesus preached implies this is the husk, the outward showing of life, but if not sown together, just a vessel that does not quite hold together. People cope by partitioning, separating of parts of their life and becoming what appears to be acceptable. It works to a degree but often breaks down in great anger and confusion, and some are left wrecked.

Jesus comes and plants a seed of love into this situation, a seed of His word, His expression, His intent. It works out and through, starts to reorder the priorities and emphasis, to set relationships straight, get possessions set aright. So what Jesus is redeeming is the vessel, which he is reordering, restructuring and changing. But this vessel has been made righteous, made holy, made pure. It is a new creation, a new thing. So Jesus is not dying for sinners to stay sinners, he is dying as a blinding light of forgiveness and life, opening the door of freedom and resolution to the confusion within.

 

[Shoshanah]

I had a conceptual leap while thinking about this idea, does God justify a failed sinner, or cleanse the vessel and plant a new seed of life, into which the vessel grows.

In a sense when we are born we are a set of systems and impulses that learn an environment, are programmed to respond in various ways and we learn to become human. Some of what Jesus preached implies this is the husk, the outward showing of life, but if not sown together, just a vessel that does not quite hold together. People cope by partitioning, separating of parts of their life and becoming what appears to be acceptable. It works to a degree but often breaks down in great anger and confusion, and some are left wrecked.

Jesus comes and plants a seed of love into this situation, a seed of His word, His expression, His intent. It works out and through, starts to reorder the priorities and emphasis, to set relationships straight, get possessions set aright. So what Jesus is redeeming is the vessel, which he is reordering, restructuring and changing. But this vessel has been made righteous, made holy, made pure. It is a new creation, a new thing. So Jesus is not dying for sinners to stay sinners, he is dying as a blinding light of forgiveness and life, opening the door of freedom and resolution to the confusion within.

John 12:24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

 

[PeterJens]

To try to add to God's work "in Christ" is legalism.

A great error can be taught in this one phrase.
Great revivalists have had this problem. People in great multitude came to christ, wept over sin, repented, but within a short time went back to their old life. How could this be? Surely once you are saved you are a new creation, fixed and everything is perfect because you are now cleansed?

Unfortunately in one sense this is true, in another you have an emotional history of reactions to things that are ungodly and often lead to sin. These need to change and be worked out over time.

The test is when these issues are pointed out, do you yield or walk in rebellion. Many are happy to accept the nice sentiments one sunday but at work, when push comes to shove, that is what they do. The two worlds are kept apart. But this is not working out.

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:12

Being saved is the start of learning a walk, it is not a place of arrival and everything else is frozen. It is about letting love walk through all your actions and reactions and remake them. It first starts with obedience, doing rather than responding. By repenting, by forgiving, by not judging, by not getting angry, by loving we become a child of God. But it is a choice.

Now some would argue this is legalism, works. It is though working out the reality of the Spirit within, because without doing this you are saying sin is ok and its roots should be left intact. Love remakes us over time and obedience, it takes time, dedication, patience, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. And these are the fruits of the spirit at work within us.

So in the end this dedication to avoid "legalism" you can deny the very gospel you claim to preach.

 

[onlinebuddy]

How did He redeem the fallen human race from under law (the curse)? By being born of a woman and being born under the law. So Christ, as God, assumed our corporate humanity (i.e., our corporate life) from the womb of Mary. In so doing He clothed His Deity with our humanity that needed redeeming.

For thirty something years He lived a perfect life of obedience in our humanity. And on the cross, "Our old life (from Adam) died".

Hence, "in Christ" we were made obedient and "in Christ" we died the death that the law requires.

Roberth,
You are saying that Jesus died to save us from "our old life."
By "old life" you mean the fallen sinful natures we inherited, as a result of Adam's sin.
By "old life" you mean our bent-to-self nature that we inherited as Adam's offspring.
You are saying that the Law required us to die and be freed from this old bent-to-self nature.
You are also saying that when Christ died 2000 years ago, we died with him (as per requirement of the Law), and our old bent-to-self nature died.

How do you explain the following verse?
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[1 Pet 2:24]
Isn't this verse saying that Jesus bore OUR SINS in his body? (Now don't ask how at the moment.We'll deal with the hows later.)
What sin of ours did Jesus bear in his body?
Is it talking about Adam's sin imputed to us (our sinful condition, as a result of Adam's sin), OR our own transgressions (sins we have personally committed)?
If Jesus died to absolve us from our old lives (and fallen natures that we inherited from Adam), what provision did God make for our personal transgressions committed in our lifetimes?

 

[onlinebuddy]

Roberth,
How do you explain the following verse?
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[1 Pet 2:24]
Isn't this verse saying that Jesus bore OUR SINS in his body? (Now don't ask how at the moment.We'll deal with the hows later.)
What sin of ours did Jesus bear in his body?
Is it talking about Adam's sin imputed to us (our sinful condition, as a result of Adam's sin), OR our own transgressions (sins we have personally committed)?
If Jesus died to absolve us from our old lives (and fallen natures that we inherited from Adam), what provision did God make for our personal transgressions committed in our lifetimes?

Let me add verse 25..
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we f might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[SUP]25[/SUP]For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. [1 Pet 2:24-25]
Please note that, as I have pointed out to you earlier, 1 Pet 2:24 says "die to sin" and not just "die."
The verse also says that by his wounds you (we) have been healed.

Q. Healed from what?
Your Answer (I'm guessing based on your previous posts): Healed from our fallen condition as the result of Adamic sin?
Now, if you say that we are healed from our fallen condition, let's read further. Our condition is specified in the next verse....v.25

Our condition: We "were straying like sheep"
To me, that sounds like personal transgression (willful sin), and not the effects of Adam's sin in us.
Our fallen human natures are because Adam strayed. This verse is talking about us straying, not Adam.

Q. Whom does the word "you" in verse 25 refer to?
My answer: It refers to the ones who "have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls"
Peter is referring to believers who have received Christ through faith and repentance, etc.
So "you" does not refer to fallen mankind!

Here's the gist:
=>Christ bore our sins in his body(his human side took our penalty and died on the cross)
=> Christ died for our sins (the condition that required healing); not to free us from the (bent-to-self) condition as a result of Adams sin.
=> He took upon himself the penalty of our willful sin.
=>What should our response be? We must resolve to "die to sin" and live to (or for) righteousness (with the assistance of our helper and counselor and comforter-the Holy Spirit).
=>This death (dying to sin) is not something that happened to us unconsciously and in auto mode 2000 years ago.
=>To "die to sin" is a conscious decision to fight sin (so as to avoid being subject to the Law of sin mentioned by Paul in Romans 3 through 7)
This doesn't mean that we will be without sin (as you were implying earlier).
It is a pledge to live in obedience to the commands of Jesus.

 

[MarcR]

Ahwatukee and MarcR,
My emphasis was on the time frame.
I'm not denying the applicability of the OT or the NT to our lives today.

All things in the Bible are for us, but not about us.
There are certain instructions in the Bible that were limited to a particular time frame, and are not applicable to us today. A general application of bible verses without referring to the context could lead to error in understanding the message of Christ. The context is of utmost importance. I know that you agree.

I certainly agree in principle. I will need to go back to the post I responded to to decide whether I agree in this case.

 

[GrahamDennis]

I guess you haven't seen Exodus 20:5 (or the handful of other times in Scripture where this kind of things is said):

"You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,"

Galatians 3:10 and Exodus 20:5 clearly contradict eachother,I thought there were no contradictions in a The Bible?

 

[MarcR]

Ahwatukee and MarcR,
My emphasis was on the time frame.
I'm not denying the applicability of the OT or the NT to our lives today.

All things in the Bible are for us, but not about us.
There are certain instructions in the Bible that were limited to a particular time frame, and are not applicable to us today. A general application of bible verses without referring to the context could lead to error in understanding the message of Christ. The context is of utmost importance. I know that you agree.

IMO, Gal 3:21 ff, in context, is as current as tomorrow's newspaper. I agree in principle that we need to see whether or how things said in the first century apply to our time; but this passage, IMO, is not time sensitive material.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Christ as God cannot die....

But Christ as the son of man (mortal) could and did die....

1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God--
2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans chapter 1)

Wasn't Jesus innocent?
And wasn't Adam guilty?
Wasn't entire mankind were under the curse of Adam's sin?
So you are now contradicting your Original Post by now saying that an innocent man died for the guilty, aren't you?

 

[GrahamDennis]

Wasn't Jesus innocent?
And wasn't Adam guilty?
Wasn't entire mankind were under the curse of Adam's sin?
So you are now contradicting your Original Post by now saying that an innocent man died for the guilty, aren't you?

Have you tried reading Galatians 3:10 and Exodus 20:5 ? One says the son won't bear the iniquity of the father,one says he will!!!!! Very confusing

 

[onlinebuddy]

"In Christ" we stand justified, sanctified and redeemed (glorified). This is our standing in Christ through faith. In Him we are perfect now and in the judgment. We can add nothing to this through our works. To try to add to God's work "in Christ" is legalism.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

It seems that you are again quoting verses out of context. The context here is the issue of circumcision, as some claimed to be required by the Law. Peter, Paul, Barnabas and the elders are refuting them.

We can add nothing to this through our works

what do you mean by "works?"
How can one try to add to God's work?
Can you give some examples of how we try to add to God's work?

 

[Roberth]

The Law points everyone to Christ, even today. However, we are not obligated by it once Christ died for us.

IF you don't have Christ you are under the law. Since there's none righteous, the law will condemn the unbeliever in the judgment.

 

[Roberth]

A great error can be taught in this one phrase....

Then we can add to God's perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus"? That's subtle legalism. I do my best and Christ makes up the rest. Who does that bring glory to? Yourself! The gospel is "not I, but Christ". If you think you can merit salvation, then you are preaching another gospel.

 

[Roberth]

By "old life" you mean the fallen sinful natures we inherited, as a result of Adam's sin.

No, I mean our life from Adam...i.e., our humanity indwelt with iniquity. The whole man is wretched. As Paul says, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells" (Rom 7:18)

How do you explain the following verse? "

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[1 Pet 2:24]

Christ as God is eternal. He is sinless, but at the incarnation Christ took upon His Deity our fallen humanity indwelt with iniquity. So He bore the results of "our sins" in His body since He assumed our fallen humanity. He assumed us to redeem us from under the curse of the law.

 

[Roberth]

Wasn't Jesus innocent?

Jesus is God, period. But, at the incarnation God the Father clothed Christ's Deity with our fallen humanity. That humanity was ours, it wasn't Christ's by native right.

Heb 10: Therefore, when He (Christ as God) came into the world (through the incarnation), He (Christ as God) said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body (Christ as man) You have prepared for Me (Christ as God)..

Remember that God'is Spirit. He does not live in the physical realm. But at the incarnation God the Father mysteriously blended Christ's Deity (i.e, the Spirit of God) to our fallen, corporate humanity in Mary's womb.

Therefore Christ as God took upon His sinless, divine nature, our sinful humanity indwelt with our love of self (iniquity). Why? To redeem it!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Jesus is God, period. But, at the incarnation God the Father clothed Christ's Deity with our fallen humanity. That humanity was ours, it wasn't Christ's by native right.

Heb 10: Therefore, when He (Christ as God) came into the world (through the incarnation), He (Christ as God) said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body (Christ as man) You have prepared for Me (Christ as God)..

Remember that God'is Spirit. He does not live in the physical realm. But at the incarnation God the Father mysteriously blended Christ's Deity (i.e, the Spirit of God) to our fallen, corporate humanity in Mary's womb.

Therefore Christ as God took upon His sinless, divine nature, our sinful humanity indwelt with our love of self (iniquity). Why? To redeem it!

No. Jesus was not God in an earth-suit, He was fully God AND fully man. And He did not take on sinful humanity, He was the first and only human being born sinless. Dude, you are all over the map in your beliefs, which is reflected in this thread which is all over the map as well.

 

[redeemed2014]

No. Jesus was not God in an earth-suit, He was fully God AND fully man. And He did not take on sinful humanity, He was the first and only human being born sinless. Dude, you are all over the map in your beliefs, which is reflected in this thread which is all over the map as well.

Just to add to the last post:

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 tells us the Word was made flesh, dwelt among us, and the Word had the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. So we can conclude that the Word can only be the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 tells us that the from the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. Yes the Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of Heaven and earth!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The Lord Jesus Christ was not a part of sinful humanity. He was literately turned to sin and put to death on the cross for us. The Lord was the ultimate sacrifice fulfilling the Law!

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For the original question, The Lord can justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to the law because he fulfilled the law by his Blood which was the perfect sacrifice. All of the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament on the day of Atonement were just sin coverings for 1 year then had to be repeated the following year. The Lord obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us by belief and faith in what he has done for me and you!

Please remember if you have a question about the Bible to pray for guidance and understanding, and search the scripture because it is a continuing revelation. Also please remember you must not mix Mosaic Law with Grace! The two cannot go together Law can only convict you of sin and cannot save you. You can only be saved by the Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and by having faith in THE GOSPEL which can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by Roberth

When did the law point you to Christ? Within the last 100 years, unless you are older than that, right? That means that the law wasn't done away with at the cross. If it was you wouldn't have known you are a sinner in need of Christ. Think it out....

IMO, Gal 3:21 ff, in context, is as current as tomorrow's newspaper. I agree in principle that we need to see whether or how things said in the first century apply to our time; but this passage, IMO, is not time sensitive material.

Yes, MarcR, you are right. I did not phrase my words correctly.
I emphasized on the time frame in order to refute Roberth's claim that "the law wasn't done away with at the cross."
The point that I was making was that : Christ is the culmination of the Law.