How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

Paul, speaking of the believer, said: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" [1 cor 3:16]

So God's Spirit (God's Deity) dwells in your fallen humanity, indwelt with sin. Does that make Him, the Holy Spirit, a sinner?

Yes, no?

See, you can't have it both ways.

If Jesus as God was a sinner because God the Father united Him to our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary, then the Holy Spirit (who is God also) must be a sinner because He dwells in your fallen humanity ...

 

[Roberth]

Here's another argument for Christ, as God, assuming our humanity after the fall:

Rom 6:6 "Our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with..."

Why was "our old self" (our life from Adam) crucified with Christ as the Son of man?

Answer: So that "our body of sin" (our humanity indwelt by the sin nature) might be done away with".

Please notice that "our body of sin" died with Christ. That means that our Adamic life was in Him and when He died, we died. See 2 Cor 5:14.

 

[Roberth]

A similar argument using Rom 7:4 NIV:

"you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

Who is the "you"? The fallen Adamic life that we all share. That fallen life was "in Christ". Therefore, as far as the law is concerned, "You died...in the body of Christ".

If your Adamic life was in Christ then your fallen, sinful life was in Him. Apparently that didn't make Christ a sinner or He couldn't have redeemed you and me!

 

[Roberth]

So the good news is that "in Christ" you stand perfect before God's law now and in judgment. That gives the believer assurance of salvation.

Did Paul preach this? Yes:

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds (compare Eph 2:1-3), 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you (in Himself) before Him (God the Father) holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

So, as long as your faith remain in Christ Jesus, He will present you "in Himself" before God, "Holy and blameless".

This is our position "in Christ". Anything outside this truth is legalistic hogwash and must be rejected as "another gospel".

 

[Roberth]

Now, someone accused me of quoting Ellen White and said I was a 7th-day Adventist. I'll answer that now.

To date I haven't quoted her, but now I will. Why? She has some good things to say (as do many spiritual folks), but there's some things where I can't agree with her. I guess we can't agree on everything.

Now, my background: My family roots, as far as denominations, are SDA and Methodist. I left the local SDA church in 1997 because to me they were teaching a subtle form of legalism. Like Luther and the Catholic church, I tried to reform my local SDA church, but they wouldn't listen. So I dusted off shoes and left.

So yes, I know of Ellen White. And here's some of her better statements:

"Jesus stands in the holy of holies, now to appear in the presence of God for us. There he ceases not to present his people moment by moment, complete in himself.....We are complete in him, accepted in the Beloved, only as we abide in him by faith."

"Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in him". Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God."

 

[Roberth]

Here's how I look at it: God's people are in all the churches. Methodist, Catholic, Adventist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc, etc. And yes the non-denominational churches too....But here's where we need unity: In the preaching of the gospel.

 

[Roberth]

One more, and then I've got to hit the sack because I have to babysit my 18 month grand kid tomorrow....That's work....

Look at Rom 7:24-25

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind (my desires) am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 7 is a converted man struggling with sin. Yes, he hasn't learned what it fully means to "walk in the Spirit". Neither have I. The point is he is failing to live the Christian life.

Is there any condemnation for those who are failing to live the Christian life, but who have placed their faith "in Christ Jesus"?

8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

How so?

2 For the law of the Spirit of life (the power of the Spirit of God) in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So "in Christ" I have been set free from the sin nature and the death sentence (the curse of the law). This refers to my position in Christ Jesus in the heavenly places (see Eph chapter 2:4-6 NIV)

 

[Roberth]

The Truth As It Is In Christ

 

[onlinebuddy]

However, the humanity that He was made (at the incarnation) came from Adam.

His humanity came from Eve, his divinity came from the seed of the Holy Spirit, as prophesied. He was born in the Adamic lineage, as prophesied, but was not born of the physical seed of Adam, as he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore he had the unfallen nature of Adam (before Adam sinned), and the earthly fleshly human nature from Eve. That's how he is 100% God and 100% human.

Appreciate your illustration, but it did not cut it for me.

CORRECTION: ** Apologies....I meant MARY, not Eve

His humanity came from MARY**, his divinity came from the seed of the Holy Spirit, as prophesied. He was born in the Adamic lineage, as prophesied, but was not born of the physical seed of Adam, as he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore he had the unfallen nature of Adam (before Adam sinned), and the earthly fleshly human nature from MARY**. That's how he is 100% God and 100% human.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

The Law required our death to free us from the Adamic fallen condition we inherited

You have the question wrong.

The law requires our death because we are sinners. We are sinners because we are born without God's Spirit and our minds and natures are therefore in harmony with each other. What our fallen nature desires, our minds desire too. Hence we naturally sin.

My question is not wrong. I am enquiring about the validity of your own ideas. You earlier said that due to Adam's sin, we are born with a fallen condition that demanded our death as per the Law.

Now you say that we are sinners because we are born without God's Spirit... Now when you say the word "sinners" what do you mean?
a) Laden with iniquity (bcoz of Adam's sin) and therefore not guilty
b) Guilty of transgressing (breaking the Law)

I have not read your latest posts, but it is important for me to get this answer from you.

 

[onlinebuddy]

sorry i don't have time right now to read through the thread more carefully. hopefully soon.
but just kind of skimming over the last several pages since some things in life came up for me -- i feel like this thread would be a lot more fruitful if we stick to talking about Jesus and leave off trying to find fault with Robert.

"why bite & devour each other?"

Paul said something like that. (Galatians 5:15)

i don't think Robert came here to be anyone's enemy, right? but as our brother.

Posthuman,
I respect your presence on this thread.
I also respect Roberth for all the knowledge he possesses.

I apologize if my posts seem like I am "biting and devouring"
That has never been my intention.
I have never been harsh and judgmental with Roberth.
I have not once supported anyone who has been harsh to him, or those who have attacked him personally.
Yes, I have just questioned his beliefs.
At times I have directly refuted him.
Then there are times I have defended my beliefs.

Roberth has started this thread by asking a question.
Many of us replied, but he rejected all our replies.
For some time there was suspicion and ambiguity about what he is asking.
He has referred to everyone else as "laymen" in one of his posts, thereby implying that he is an expert.
Later, he put forth his ideas in bits and pieces.
I found that he has complicated the sweet and simple Gospel of our Lord.
I cross questioned and refuted him, to which he said that I was confused, and that my questions were in error.
That's when I told him that he is the one causing confusion, as he started off in a very suspicious manner.
I found his ideas to be inconsistent all over the thread.
At times I pointed out error in his ideas.
Furthermore, I have questioned some of his beliefs for which I haven't got a satisfactory answer.
While doing this, I did remind everyone(in one of my posts) to remember that although we have our differences, we have Christ in common.

 

[onlinebuddy]

This is just a general comment...
I believe that the Gospel is very simple and straightforward and complete, as presented by the words of Jesus himself.
Understanding the gospel from Paul is not easy, primarily because he was dealing with people who were biased and mentally conditioned by the OT Law.

IMO, man tries to add to the gospel and complicate it by connecting it too much to the OT laws.

I once used to be a fan of Doug Batchelor (of the SDA). I still love listening to him, at times.
However, I found him to complicate the gospel too much, by adding burdens of the Law to it.
He argues too often about the Sabbath, and what foods we are not supposed to eat, and about what day we are supposed to worship, etc...thereby complicating the sweet and simple gospel.

When we stray from the basic truths of the gospel, and lay more emphasis on other minor issues, and (worstly) make these things salvation issues, denominations and sects and cults are born.

 

[Roberth]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

Now you say that we are sinners because we are born without God's Spirit... Now when you say the word "sinners" what do you mean?

We are born without God's Spirit. Therefore what the fallen nature wants the mind wants. The two are in agreement. Hence we naturally sin. In fact we are born slaves to sin. This makes us sinners. The very fact we have these fallen natures disqualifies us for heaven. Hence we belong to a condemned race.

Then at some point in time (most call it the age of accountability) we realize we are sinning. This can be through a knowledge of the law or conscience. At this point we become transgressors - that is, guilty sinners.

 

[Roberth]

Then at some point in time (most call it the age of accountability) we realize we are sinning. This can be through a knowledge of the law or conscience. At this point we become transgressors - that is, guilty sinners.

Proof: Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

So if you realize that you are a sinner, through revelation/conscience, and you remain in a state of unbelief you will therefore perish without an explicit knowledge of the law.

If you know the law you will be judged by the law. Why? Because it's not enough to hear the law read, you must do the law to be justified before God.

Can anyone justify themselves before God from their law keeping? No! Hence the unbeliever needs to be delivered from under law to under grace.

 

[Roberth]

Then at some point in time (most call it the age of accountability) we realize we are sinning. This can be through a knowledge of the law or conscience. At this point we become transgressors - that is, guilty sinners.

Rom 4:15 "For the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."

Rom 5:13 ".... sin is not imputed when there is no law."

 

[onlinebuddy]

Hence we naturally sin. In fact we are born slaves to sin. This makes us sinners. The very fact we have these fallen natures disqualifies us for heaven.

What about a newborn baby? According to your logic, he or she is born slave to sin. Therefore that makes an infant a "sinner"(according to you), and therefore since the infant has a fallen nature, the fallen nature "disqualifies" the infant for heaven.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Then at some point in time (most call it the age of accountability) we realize we are sinning. This can be through a knowledge of the law or conscience. At this point we become transgressors - that is, guilty sinners.

So a person can realize that he or she is sinning though his is her conscience, right? So even if someone does not know the Law, they can realize that they are sinners (without knowledge of the Mosaic Ten Commandments) and just by knowledge of the teachings of Jesus(which uphold the moral law, and which sets a higher standard than the given Mosiac moral law).

Yes, it's true that the law makes us conscious of sin.
But it would not be wrong if someone says that- knowing Jesus makes us conscious of sin.

 

[blue_ladybug]

We are born without God's Spirit. Therefore what the fallen nature wants the mind wants. The two are in agreement. Hence we naturally sin. In fact we are born slaves to sin. This makes us sinners. The very fact we have these fallen natures disqualifies us for heaven. Hence we belong to a condemned race.

Then at some point in time (most call it the age of accountability) we realize we are sinning. This can be through a knowledge of the law or conscience. At this point we become transgressors - that is, guilty sinners.

I have to disagree on part of this. You say "we are born without God's spirit." That is NOT TRUE. God CREATED us in HIS image, he literally breathed life into Adam and Eve, so obviously we ARE born with his spirit, since he is our creator.

Second, your comment about our "fallen natures disqualifies us for heaven." Once again,that is NOT true. God MADE us sinful and imperfect for a reason. None of us deserves heaven, in fact we all deserve to end up in hell. Once a sinner repents of their sin and accepts and acknowledges Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then they WILL go to heaven. It is the UNsaved and UNrepentant who qualify for hell. As long as we are obedient and repentant, we will enter heaven.

Third, we are NOT a "condemned race." The one who IS condemned, is satan. He rebelled against God and was unrepentant. He knows he's condemned. We, as saved believers, are NOT condemned to satan's fate.

 

[onlinebuddy]

No, I clearly said I was't infallible. None of us are....

It is good to be confident in one's doctrine.
It is also good to have strong personal convictions.
However, you are very rigid about what you have come to believe.
Some have rightly pointed out that the architect of your belief system is the SDA. I have no problem with that. (I'm sorry if I have gone too far with this statement).
I love the SDA, as much as I love any other denomination.

A person who believes that he of she is infallible, would be open to change.
Are you open to changing your beliefs, if proved wrong?
Let me tell you that I am open to change, since my allegiance is to Jesus first (rather than to any church or denomination).

..and I'm glad we consider ourselves infallible. By that we give Christ due credit.

 

[onlinebuddy]

It is good to be confident in one's doctrine.
It is also good to have strong personal convictions.
However, you are very rigid about what you have come to believe.
Some have rightly pointed out that the architect of your belief system is the SDA. I have no problem with that. (I'm sorry if I have gone too far with this statement).
I love the SDA, as much as I love any other denomination.

A person who believes that he of she is infallible, would be open to change.
Are you open to changing your beliefs, if proved wrong?
Let me tell you that I am open to change, since my allegiance is to Jesus first (rather than to any church or denomination).

..and I'm glad we consider ourselves infallible. By that we give Christ due credit.

CORRECTION:** (I write too much in a hurry due to lack of time)
..and I'm glad we DON'T **consider ourselves infallible. By that we give Christ due credit.