How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

The law was written in our hearts with new letters.

Does that imply the law has changed? IF so, that's unbiblical.

Here's Paul:

Rom 13:9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love (agape) is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Here Paul is using the law, not as a means of salvation (for we already stand saved "in Christ"), but as a standard for Christians living under grace. Yes, we fail...yes we fall short of God's agape love. And when we do knowingly sin the law cant' touch us because of our position "in Christ". Yet still the law is a standard for Christians living under grace.

Now I've gone off into the fruits of salvation. That was not my purpose. My purpose was to discuss the gospel. The problem is you can't see your need of the gospel if it weren't for the law and the conviction of the Spirit. So we've gone off on a tangent and ended up talking about Christian living.

Is this a problem? Yes! If we concentrate on living the good life before we understand the gospel we'll end up with subtle legalism. Been there, done that.

Let's get back to the gospel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Does that imply the law has changed? IF so, that's unbiblical.

Not unbiblical at all. Just takes faith to believe what the bible says.

​Thus if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, for on the basis of it the people received the law, what further need is there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek and not said to be according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood changes, of necessity there is a change of the law also. Hebrews 7:11-12​

 

[senzi]

Is this a problem? Yes! If we concentrate on living the good life before we understand the gospel we'll end up with subtle legalism. Been there, done that.

Let's get back to the gospel.

You are fortunate, the majority of those who go to church are still where you used to be.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Exactly the law should be the tool that leads us to look to Christ, for we cannot be saved by striving to obey it for we cannot reach the pass mark to be righteous under it(perfection)
Unfortunately, far too many become Christians, and instead of looking to Christ, they look to the law and spend their lives trying to make themselves holy enough to attain Heaven. They are then relying on works of the law to attain Heaven, something Paul pleads for Christians not to do

The gospel (good news) is what motivates me to look to Christ.

 

[Roberth]

Not unbiblical at all. Just takes faith to believe what the bible says.

​Thus if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, for on the basis of it the people received the law, what further need is there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek and not said to be according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood changes, of necessity there is a change of the law also. Hebrews 7:11-12​

What law? Context, context, context.

It is not the moral law or Paul and Christ wouldn't have repeated it in the NT.

If it is the moral law, what changed?

Did this change? "Do not commit adultery"

Or this? "Do not murder"

What about this one? "Do not steal"

And this one? "Do not covet"

The whole law is summed (see Gal 5:14) "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself". Has that changed?

 

[Roberth]

The gospel (good news) is what motivates me to look to Christ.

Why? Were you indulging the flesh, or were you a good person desiring to become better so you could some how merit salvation?

 

[senzi]

The Holy Spirit motivates us to look to Christ, for we cannot come to Christ in the first place unless the Father draws us John 6:65 (through the Spirit)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What law? Context, context, context.

It is not the moral law or Paul and Christ wouldn't have repeated it in the NT.

If it is the moral law, what changed?

Did this change? "Do not commit adultery"
Or this? "Do not murder"
What about this one? "Do not steal,
And this one? "Do not covet"
The whole law is summed (see Gal 5:14) "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself". Has that changed?

There is no such thing as the moral law of GOD. It's called the law of GOD; it is one, not 3 parts. Dividing the law into parts comes from the Talmud. Follow it if you like.

 

[Roberth]

You are fortunate, the majority of those who go to church are still where you used to be.

Yes, I realize this....It's terrible. Self-righteousness abounds. The gospel is good news to sinners, not the self-righteous. You can't know sin except through the law. We either know of the law explicitly or through our conscience. Everyone who has reached the age of accountability knows basic right from wrong.

 

[Roberth]

There is no such thing as the moral law of GOD. It's called the law of GOD; it is one, not 3 parts. Dividing the law into parts comes from the Talmud. Follow it if you like.

Okay, the ten commandments....There!

 

[Roberth]

Follow it if you like.

Follow the law? You mean keep the law in order to be saved? What do you mean? I can't keep the law to be saved. No matter how much I experience the imparted righteousness of Christ I will never be good enough for heaven based on my performance. I am only perfect "in Christ" (the imputed righteousness of Christ)

 

[Roberth]

What law? Context, context, context.

It is not the moral law or Paul and Christ wouldn't have repeated it in the NT.

If it is the moral law, what changed?

Did this change? "Do not commit adultery"

Or this? "Do not murder"

What about this one? "Do not steal"

And this one? "Do not covet"

The whole law is summed (see Gal 5:14) "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself". Has that changed?

Yes????????

 

[Roberth]

So you needed saving from nothing????

Your silence speaks volumes....

 

[Roberth]

Gal 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Attempting salvation through the law as a whole ( i.e. both the ceremonial laws and the law of ten commandments) is a "yoke of bondage". That simply means you can't do it. Try as you might it will never happen. Therefore folks caught up in legalism are in bondage. They have no hope and they are fooling themselves they can keep the law (as a whole) and merit salvation.


2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Now Paul is addressing the Judaizers (Jewish converts). Paul told them that if they made circumcision a condition for salvation that they were obligated to obey all the whole law (the book of the law, including the ten commandments). If you make one command a condition, you have to obey all that is written in the book of the law. (see Gal 3:10)


4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If you are a believer attempting to be justified by your law obedience, Paul states you have fallen from grace. That's very serious.

Let's skip to verse 13 You, my brothers, were called to be free (free from the bondage of legalism). But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

A practiced sin is not a sin of repetition (a besetting sin). A practiced sin is where you have taken the law of God (the ten commandments) and decided to redefine sin.

The gay lifestyle is a good example of practicing sin as a legitimate lifestyle. They tell me it's not sin. So they have redefined sin. God states it is sin. They say God made them this way and therefore it's not sin. So they do not need a Savior, from this sin, because they have redefined the commandment.

Pretty soon nothing is sin and therefore you can't be a sinner. Only sinners need Christ. The self-righteous, i.e, those who redefine sin or attempt to obey in order to merit salvation, don't need Christ.

 

[Roberth]

Pretty soon nothing is sin and therefore you can't be a sinner. Only sinners need Christ. The self-righteous, i.e, those who redefine sin or attempt to obey in order to merit salvation, don't need Christ.

Luke 5:32 I have come to call not those who think they are righteous (i.e.,the self-righteous), but those who know they are sinners and need to repent."

The Pharisees were self-righteous. They had the law and they thought they could earn salvation by the keeping of that law. Therefore they didn't' need Christ. Sinners need Christ. How so?

They need His imputed righteousness to cover them in the judgment. They need His imparted righteousness so they can experience genuine good works. However, the imparted righteousness of Christ does not merit us salvation. Any good works done through us witness that our faith is in Christ and that gives Him the legal right to present us blameless in Himself before God and His holy law.

 

[VioletReigns]

Those who are trying to justify themselves by what they do, in their heart of hearts they know it’s built upon nothing. Oh, they may have created an elaborate network of self-justification, but they know that the whole thing is so fragile. Why else did we ever or do we still find the need to argue our point so fiercely unless we sensed it might not be true after all?

Grace is truly Jesus Christ at work in us. Nothing else. What is impossible with man is possible with God. The glory belongs only to God.

 

[Roberth]

Luke 5:32 They need His imputed righteousness to cover them in the judgment. They need His imparted righteousness so they can experience genuine good works. However, the imparted righteousness of Christ does not merit us salvation. Any good works done through us witness that our faith is in Christ and that gives Him the legal right to present us blameless in Himself before God and His holy law.

Why can't Christ's imparted righteousness (that which we experience as "we walk in the Spirit") merit salvation?

Because Christ's work of redemption is a finished work. Just like creation was a finished work and God's rested, redemption is a finished work in Christ Jesus from which God rested. (see Heb chapter 4).

When God rests His work is complete. That means you can't add anything to it by your performance. You can, however, experience His imparted righteousness.

In fact everyone produces works. There are two types of works:

1] Works of the law

2] Works of faith

Works of the law (legalism) prove that one's faith is really not in Christ. Therefore Christ cannot present the self-righteous complete in Himself before God's law. These will have to stand before the law in the judgment. Do you know what the law will say? "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Those who produce works of faith (two examples are found in James 2:21-25) reveal that their faith is in Christ and not in their law performance. They place no confidence in the flesh, but rather in Christ their righteousness. These works of faith proves, not their righteousness, but their faith in Christ and gives Christ the legal right to present these before the law, blameless in Himself.

So Paul does not contradict James. Paul, in Romans 3:28, is writing about "works of the law". James is writing about "works of faith.

Paul: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

James: "You see then that a man is justified by works (of faith implied according to the context), and not by faith only"

 

[Roberth]

My "old life" died.
But, what is the "old life?"

Okay...it's time we returned to the subject of this thread.

Onlinebuddy asks a very legitimate question above. Would anyone like to answer it before I do?

 

[senzi]

I would say the old life was seeking to gratify the desires of the flesh without conscience. The old life only thought of self.
The new life(being born again) consists of God placing the desire in your heart to obey him. This is because the spirit places the law in your heart and writing it on your mind. This means in your mind you insti tively know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. You have been supernaturally changed.
Jesus told nicodemus. Ye MUST be born again. Being born again if the spirit stops the christian viewing grace as a licence to sin. Hence the new covenant hinges on two core foundational principals, not one

 

[Roberth]

I would say the old life was seeking to gratify the desires of the flesh without conscience. The old life only thought of self. The new life(being born again) consists of God placing the desire in your heart to obey him. This is because the spirit places the law in your heart and writing it on your mind.....

Okay, this is a good answer, but what you are writing about is "the new birth experience", what Paul terms "obeying the gospel".

What onlinebuddy is asking, after reading my posts, is "what is the old life"? He admits that his old life died in Christ, but now he wants to know what it is....

Let's take Rom 6:6 from multiple versions:

"our old self" NIV
"our old man" KJV