He became sin...???

[Mitspa]

I am sort of focused on just what is a sin offering. How did the sin offering work.
I am not arguing here. I am just processing this in my brain...lol


Kefa

There where several types of sin offerings.. but the term is not used and makes no sense.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

A spiritual being is an object and would be described as a noun...the devil is a spirit...God is a Spirit..we know they have action and effect ...

you have to deny the clear reading of the passage to believe as you do... I often agree with you...but your just wrong here

Ro 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This is clearly a spiritual force called "sin" that is in the flesh..clearly its is being used as a noun..not a verb

Christ dwells in you. Is he himself actually inside of you, or is it figurative language to describe his life residing in you through his spirit? Christ himself is in heaven, so he can't be inside of you on earth apart from his immaterial spirit. Spirit is not a physical object, but all spiritual beings are nouns.

Don't you see where this leads? Saying that Christ became sin means he became satan.

 

[Mitspa]

why would I want to think that? Is there any means or reason I would think this?

Sin is sin. Jesus can not "redeem" sin unless he becomes sin (unless he takes on sins guilt)

It is a judicial declaration. I take the penalty which was supposed to go to these people. and I place it on the redeemer.

The redeemer pays the debt in full. The ones were were guilty of those crimes are set free. as if they had never done those sin (also known as justification)

Boy that sounds kinda complicated...so how did Christ become "sin" by what your saying?

 

[Kefa54]

Can we possibly discuss this with out pointing fingers. It is just a discussion and no one will learn a thing if we get snarky.

snark·y
ˈsnärkē/
adjectiveNorth Americaninformal

adjective: snarky; comparative adjective: snarkier; superlative adjective: snarkiest
(of a person, words, or a mood) sharply critical; cutting; snide.
"the kid who makes snarky remarks in class"

Kefa

No it makes no sense to assume what is not in the scriptures...and then assume that the explanation is needed for a sin offering as being without sin...so folks are supposed to know that the word "sin" really means "sin offering" because they knew the Old Testament Greek...but they didn't know that a sin offering was without sin? This is what happens when folks leave the clear reading of scripture...they go into all manner of mans logic and error.

 

[Mitspa]

Christ dwells in you. Is he himself actually inside of you, or is it figurative language to describe his life residing in you through his spirit? Christ himself is in heaven, so he can't be inside of you on earth apart from his immaterial spirit. Spirit is not a physical object, but all spiritual beings are nouns.

Don't you see where this leads? Saying that Christ became sin means he became satan.

No not at all.... it means that our sin was judged in Him ..In His body

And again just because something is spirit..don't mean its not a noun or object....actually spiritual is more real than the natural realm...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No it makes no sense to assume what is not in the scriptures...and then assume that the explanation is needed for a sin offering as being without sin...so folks are supposed to know that the word "sin" really means "sin offering" because they knew the Old Testament Greek...but they didn't know that a sin offering was without sin? This is what happens when folks leave the clear reading of scripture...they go into all manner of mans logic and error.

When an animal was sacrificed in the OT, was some substance called sin transferred to the animal? The animal itself never committed sin, so it was completely innocent of the crime committed. Yet it paid the price.

 

[Mitspa]

Can we possibly discuss this with out pointing fingers. It is just a discussion and no one will learn a thing if we get snarky.

snark·y
ˈsnärkē/
adjectiveNorth Americaninformal

adjective: snarky; comparative adjective: snarkier; superlative adjective: snarkiest
(of a person, words, or a mood) sharply critical; cutting; snide.
"the kid who makes snarky remarks in class"

Kefa

Look ..you communicate how you like...I will do the same If you found that post to be "snarky" ..then maybe you should find another member to discuss the word of God with..Because I am just very blunt about what is evident.

 

[Kefa54]

Atonment

In Rabbinic Judaism, atonement is achieved through some combination of

• repentance
• Temple service (e.g. bringing a sacrifice)
• confession
• restitution
• the occurrence of Yom Kippur (the day itself, as distinct from the Temple service performed on it)
• tribulations (unpleasant life experiences)
• the carrying out of a sentence of lashes or execution imposed by an ordained court (not now in existence)
• the experience of dying.

Which of these are required varies according to the severity of the sin, whether it was done willfully, in error, or under duress, whether it was against God alone or also against a fellow person, and whether the Temple service and ordained law courts are in existence or not. Repentance is needed in all cases of willful sin, and restitution is always required in the case of sin against a fellow person, unless the wronged party waives it.
The following table, based on Maimonides (Hil. Teshuva 1:1-4), gives an outline of the requirements for atonement in sins between man and God:

This is a very interesting discussion.

Kefa

When an animal was sacrificed in the OT, was some substance called sin transferred to the animal? The animal itself never committed sin, so it was completely innocent of the crime committed. Yet it paid the price.

 

[Mitspa]

When an animal was sacrificed in the OT, was some substance called sin transferred to the animal? The animal itself never committed sin, so it was completely innocent of the crime committed. Yet it paid the price.

yes a substance (noun) spiritual forced...called "sin"... That's the same thing Paul is saying ..then the animal suffered for that sin...that spiritual force.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No not at all.... it means that our sin was judged in Him ..In His body

And again just because something is spirit..don't mean its not a noun or object....actually spiritual is more real than the natural realm...

That's true that spiritual is more real than natural, but spirit is not natural objects.

Did Jesus have to become actual sin (which is a meaningless expression in terms of the physical realm) for GOD to judge him for the guilt of our sin? What OT sacrifice that paid the price for sinful acts became a substance called sin?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

yes a substance (noun) spiritual forced...called "sin"... That's the same thing Paul is saying ..then the animal suffered for that sin...that spiritual force.

The sacrifice suffered death for a crime committed, not for the existence of some substance called sin.

 

[Mitspa]

That's true that spiritual is more real than natural, but spirit is not natural objects.

Did Jesus have to become actual sin (which is a meaningless expression in terms of the physical realm) for GOD to judge him for the guilt of our sin? What OT sacrifice that paid the price for sinful acts became a substance called sin?

The book and Word of God is telling us spiritual truth..not sure why you have a issue with it using spiritual things as nouns?

 

[Mitspa]

The sacrifice suffered death for a crime committed, not for the existence of some substance called sin.

How could that "sin" be transferred into the animal if it was not a spiritual force? Imputed is the biblical term...

 

[Kefa54]

Because we are thinking, processing and learning. The spirit is working in us. We will be fine. We don't have to fight for God. He will show us the way.

The book and Word of God is telling us spiritual truth..not sure why you have a issue with it using spiritual things as nouns?

Kefa

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How could that "sin" be transferred into the animal if it was not a spiritual force? Imputed is the biblical term...

It's a legal imputation. The guilt for a crime is transferred. Our guilt for committed crimes was transferred to Christ through the new covenant, and his righteousness was imputed to us.

 

[Mitspa]

Because we are thinking, processing and learning.




Kefa

Fair enough Kefa ..thanks for reminding me

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The book and Word of God is telling us spiritual truth..not sure why you have a issue with it using spiritual things as nouns?

I don't have a problem with considering spiritual things nouns. But they are not physical objects.

 

[Mitspa]

It's a legal imputation. The guilt for a crime is transferred. Our guilt for committed crimes was transferred to Christ through the new covenant, and his righteousness was imputed to us.

Of course it was legal for Christ to receive our sin..that spiritual forced called sin that can be imputed from man to a sacrifice ...

"He became sin" Sin being the spiritual force of our sin.... I mean I don't think any of us can grasp the fullness of these spiritual things...that's why we must trust the clear reading if the scriptures.

 

[Kefa54]

I am stuck on sin-offering and atonement. A bull was sacrificed. The meat and fat was burned to God. The blood was used for the atonement.

Holman Christian Standard Bible Leviticus 16:14
He is to take some of the bull's blood and sprinkle it with his finger against the east side of the mercy seat; then he will sprinkle some of the blood with his finger before the mercy seat seven times."


Leviticus 1
[SUP]1[/SUP] The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, [SUP]2[/SUP] “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any of you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.
[SUP]3[/SUP] ” ‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to offer a male without defect. He must present it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting so that it will be acceptable to the LORD. [SUP]4[/SUP] He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. [SUP]5[/SUP] He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron’s sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. [SUP]6[/SUP] He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. [SUP]7[/SUP] The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. [SUP]8[/SUP] Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar. [SUP]9[/SUP] He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.


[SUP]10[/SUP] ” ‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, he is to offer a male without defect.


I am not arguing here. I am just thinking all over the place.





Kefa

 

[Willie-T]

That's the point ...that the scriptures describe "sin" as a noun and not always as a verb... clearly "sin" is being described as a spiritual force and not a act in this case.

We also see "sin" described as a noun in Romans 7 ...

Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So very true. We seem to try SO hard to make it simply an action..... so that, if we "act" nice (like the Pharisees), then we aren't sinning, no matter what else might be harbored in our hearts.