The Charismatic movement?

[RachelBibleStudent]

And something else, repetition is one of the concepts used in eastern mysticism and hypnotism. The ancient pagans used repetitions in music and drums to create a trance-like state. It did not always accompany the use of drugs. For today, this principle is a major part of the Trance dance music scene, and not all affected are on a drug, but that certainly helps induce that state, and was a major part in many ancient pagan religious rituals (see The Golden Bough).

We all have experienced the day dream state produced by monotonous sounds, like a boring speaker, woke up suddenly out our dream and realized we had nodded off. Science knows things like hypnotic suggestion is real. Even in the '70's a law was passed by congress against subliminal advertising, as the advertising industry was hiding small images in magazine advertisements they had tested knowing would get the attention of our subconscious, but not our conscious awareness. A film frame of Coca-Cola and popcorn was inserted into films at theaters which drove sales up. At department stores, messages at low volumes behind the music saying things like, "do not steal", were added (see the book Subliminal Seduction).

I heard a witness from a close relative about one Church of those who attended. I don't remember what kind of Christian Church they said it was. In the service the music continued to play for almost an hour before the pastor came out. And when he came out he motioned his arm and hand out towards the congregation, and various members there immediately fell backwards on the floor. In the YouTube video above by Andrew Strorm, repetitious drums can be heard in the background. Those things are used as effects to drive up one's emotions, which was the same purpose of the ancient pagans using repetitions in their rituals. But one doesn't even need those things, repetitious prayer can achieve the same trance-like results. Our Lord Jesus commanded us to not do repetitious prayer, remember? (Matt.6:7)

repetition -is- helpful for memorizing scripture...so it isn't justified to condemn repetition in general...

although i do recognize the similarity between excessive repetition in worship and the eastern practice of mantras...

 

[DP]

to make a long story short...the 'kundalini' aspersions are nonsense...basically a really incompetent attempt at comparative religion... the weird stuff that happens in some charismatic circles has no resemblance to -actual- kundalini meditation as it is practiced and experienced by -actual- hindus...

You're not going to convince me of that, I know better.

Distinguishing those things from real signs and wonders by God's working are not that difficult, for God is not the author of confusion, as written.

 

[DP]

this is correct...however i am not sure the direction of the falling is all that significant...there have been occasions in charismatic worship where people have fallen forwards...

falling forwards happens once in scripture...in the story of balaam when the holy spirit fills balaam and gives him his final prophecies...

In all of the Charismatic service examples I have seen, at no time did the pastor placing his hand on the head of the person make that person fall forwards.

 

[DP]

repetition -is- helpful for memorizing scripture...so it isn't justified to condemn repetition in general...

although i do recognize the similarity between excessive repetition in worship and the eastern practice of mantras...

Using repetition for memorizing something is certainly not the same thing, which I think you well know. Likewise, repetitions in exercising our flesh body is not the same thing either. But go into a room and play the same drum beats over, and over, and over, while continuously repeating the same words over and over, and see what happens.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

In all of the Charismatic service examples I have seen, at no time did the pastor placing his hand on the head of the person make that person fall forwards.

there is a video of a benny hinn event where people are falling forwards off the stage...

this is not to say that benny hinn is the real thing...it is only to show that people don't only fall backwards at charismatic events...

 

[DP]

there is a video of a benny hinn event where people are falling forwards off the stage...

this is not to say that benny hinn is the real thing...it is only to show that people don't only fall backwards at charismatic events...

Rachel, if you want to find reasons to doubt those manifestations are evil, but instead truly are from The Holy Spirit, then no one is going to prevent you from believing in those manifestations. I put a warning out for brethren, and that's where I stand on those things, and my personal experience in those kind of things when I was younger probably still wouldn't convince you. You'll have discover what I already know about it on your own I suppose.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You're not going to convince me of that, I know better.

Distinguishing those things from real signs and wonders by God's working are not that difficult, for God is not the author of confusion, as written.

here is a copy of a post i made in another thread a long time ago where someone asked me to describe -actual- kundalini practices and show how they are contrasted with charismatic 'manifestation' frenzies...


well for one thing a kundalini awakening is achieved through specific yogas that resemble typical hindu yoga practices...motionless sitting and controlled breathing are considered to be more or less required for a kundalini awakening... in contrast the idea of achieving a kundalini awakening by working yourself up into a physical and emotional frenzy is pretty much absurd...

kundalini yogas often also call for contraction of specific muscles and the holding of those muscles in a contracted state...the muscle contractions are commonly inconspicuous to an outside observer... compare this with the 'pseudoseizure' display associated with 'toronto blessing' type stuff...

while it is believed that a guru can produce a kundalini awakening in another person...the person still has to be physically and mentally prepared in order to receive it...again that preparation is done through intensive meditiation...

in general you can say that kundalini awakening involves a -maximum- level of physical and mental control...not a total -loss- of control as you see in those extreme charismatic churches...


whether or not you think the charismatic 'manifestations' are real or fake or holy spirit or demonic...it is plainly apparent to anyone who has any real knowledge of kundalini practices that this is not the same thing...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Rachel, if you want to find reasons to doubt those manifestations are evil, but instead truly are from The Holy Spirit, then no one is going to prevent you from believing in those manifestations. I put a warning out for brethren, and that's where I stand on those things, and my personal experience in those kind of things when I was younger probably still wouldn't convince you. You'll have discover what I already know about it on your own I suppose.

the opinions i express below are based on my own detailed study of the charismatic 'manifestations'...

personally i think that possibly the holy spirit does occasionally produce the kinds of 'manifestations' that are frequently reported in charismatic groups...but i do not think this is the source of the majority of charismatic 'manifestations'

i -don't- think that many of the charismatic 'manifestations' are evil in the sense of being demonic...i think much of it can be more easily explained as deliberate acting and a credulousness in identifying everything as miraculous...the more extraordinary 'manifestations' can often be explained in terms of biology and psychology...

in other words we are mostly talking about the flesh...not the demonic... while the flesh is evil...it reduces these things to an instance of humans being human...not a move of satan...

 

[popeye]

So many folks just speculating.

When we were traveling back and forth to pensacola in the mid 90's for the Brownsville outpouring(awesome beyond words). We enjoyed such a powerful imparting every time we visited. people could see the change in our countenance,conversation,walk,and our deeds. We could not get that silly grin off our face.One night at our home church the pastor said "I want all who have a need for healing or anything else to come up to the front for prayer"......."and I want brother David to come pray for them"

That was me.

I was in shock as all I really was at the time was a pew sitter.(nominal believer...but newly on fire with the Holy Ghost all over me and in me)

I thought oh dear what on earth will happen when a joke like me prays for them????

Guess what? To my amazement they fell backwards like crazy. They went flying as I touched them!!!!
What was also amazing is that since they knew me,and my non-ministry background as a pew sitter,they did not appoint anyone to "catch" those that were flying backwards. I tried to grab them from the front but most were not "catchable" LOL,and just went splat on the carpet.

Don't tell me it is flesh,emotions,blah,blah,blah.

Brownsville and Rodney Howard were so awesome movements.

So many lives changed. The Holy laughter was mainly deliverance.

That same pastor that asked me to pray for folks is a close friend and we love each other. But in the early 90's we were in bitter conflict. Extreme resentments were ripping at both of us and we actually had some bitter confrontations.He even took shots at me from the platform in his preaching.

One of RHB's associates came to town to do some "revival" meetings. The pastor was reluctant because of the manifestations. That was an awesome time as the HS fell so heavily it was like you could feel the thickness of his presence in that church. Much,much Holy laughter.

One night,about the third or fourth night the pastor "got hit" and I saw him on the floor all dazed and bewildered. It made me laugh even harder.(he was always so dignified and poised). That instant,something broke between us. The resentment was replaced with a "love from heaven". Like turning on a switch,the whole bitterness melted away. We still love each other.
It was so radical.that I actually asked him about it,because I could FEEL THIS MAN'S DEEP LOVE FOR ME ALSO.
He said "I can tell you the day and the hour it happened". We both knew what he was talking about.

So don't tell me the Holy Laughter was not real. A thousand nuclear bombs could not have broken that deep resentment we had for each other.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Really none of this stuff is anything like my church so I guess Charismatics must be pretty diverse. We are just enthusiastic regarding our worship - no chanting or repetitive stuff. I tried the solemn stuff - it doesn't work for me. Jesus is alive and that is cause for celebration!

 

[RickyZ]

So I have never known what the Charismatic movement is and more than a few ppl have thought I myself was a part of it and then I keep seeing posts on another forum of ppl putting great emphasis on supernatural things like speaking in tongues and prophecying divine healing and miracles but I got the sense they were far more focus on those things than God himself so i looked up what the Charismatic movement is and this is what I found

The movement takes its name from the Greek words charis, which is the English transliteration of the Greek word for “grace,” and mata, which is the Greek word meaning “gifts.” Charismata, then, means “grace gifts.” It emphasizes the manifestations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit. These gifts are also known as the biblical “charisms,” or spiritual gifts which supposedly give an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people. The prominent gifts among these “charisms” are speaking in tongues and prophesying. Charismatics hold that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit given to those in the first-century church may still be experienced and practiced today.

The Charismatic movement is most known for its acceptance of speaking in tongues (also known as glossolalia), divine healing, and prophecies as evidence of the Holy Spirit. Most meetings are for praying and spirited singing, dancing, shouting “in the spirit,” and raising hands and arms in prayer. Also, anointing the sick with oil is often part of the worship service. These are the primary reasons for the movement’s growth and popularity. While growth and popularity are certainly desirable, they cannot be used as a test for truth


Now as for me yes I can easily see God doing this with ppl even in these days as he is a supernatural being and so the supernatural is not uncommon with the believer, but is it just me or do a lot of these Charismatics take it a bit to far?

A lot of them take it too far. Just like the Corinthians, who needed to be told proper place and time, and to put a leash on it.

 

[RickyZ]

Another thing about some of these manifestations, one of the things those Churches explain when people fall backwards, they say that's The Holy Spirit doing that.

So I went to God's Word to check it out, like we are to do...

The ONLY examples I found of anyone falling backwards because of The Holy Spirit were enemies of Christ. When the armed band sent by the Pharisees to sieze Jesus asked for Him ...

John 18:5-6
5 They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus saith unto them, "I am He." And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as He had said unto them, "I am He", they went backward, and fell to the ground.
KJV

Now that is an interesting observation...

 

[RickyZ]

Uh....... I'm pretty sure I clearly read where he said, "This is what I found."

That is what you get when people cruise posts for something negative, rather than taking into consideration the entirety of it.

 

[RickyZ]

Rachel, if you want to find reasons to doubt those manifestations are evil, but instead truly are from The Holy Spirit, then no one is going to prevent you from believing in those manifestations. I put a warning out for brethren, and that's where I stand on those things, and my personal experience in those kind of things when I was younger probably still wouldn't convince you. You'll have discover what I already know about it on your own I suppose.

So does that mean you've tossed the baby with the bathwater? I always figured that the harder the devil tries to muddy the waters with counterfeits, the more powerful the real thing must be.

Discernment, not dismissal, is the key.

 

[wolfwint]

So I have never known what the Charismatic movement is and more than a few ppl have thought I myself was a part of it and then I keep seeing posts on another forum of ppl putting great emphasis on supernatural things like speaking in tongues and prophecying divine healing and miracles but I got the sense they were far more focus on those things than God himself so i looked up what the Charismatic movement is and this is what I found

The movement takes its name from the Greek words charis, which is the English transliteration of the Greek word for “grace,” and mata, which is the Greek word meaning “gifts.” Charismata, then, means “grace gifts.” It emphasizes the manifestations of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as a sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit. These gifts are also known as the biblical “charisms,” or spiritual gifts which supposedly give an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people. The prominent gifts among these “charisms” are speaking in tongues and prophesying. Charismatics hold that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit given to those in the first-century church may still be experienced and practiced today.

The Charismatic movement is most known for its acceptance of speaking in tongues (also known as glossolalia), divine healing, and prophecies as evidence of the Holy Spirit. Most meetings are for praying and spirited singing, dancing, shouting “in the spirit,” and raising hands and arms in prayer. Also, anointing the sick with oil is often part of the worship service. These are the primary reasons for the movement’s growth and popularity. While growth and popularity are certainly desirable, they cannot be used as a test for truth


Now as for me yes I can easily see God doing this with ppl even in these days as he is a supernatural being and so the supernatural is not uncommon with the believer, but is it just me or do a lot of these Charismatics take it a bit to far?

Well, i am not charismatic/pentecostal. In the last months i had a tough time in studying about charismatic/pentecostal doctrine. Because this influence splittet our ministrie.
Some are saying the different between charismatic movement and pentecostal churches is that charismatic movement is going in a already exist churches and pentecostal have their own churches. I dont want make bad somebody who is going in such churches. And it is far from me to say these are not brothers and sisters, But i have some questions to this movement which startet in origin in 1905/06 in Azusa Street. 1. Why the worldwide church of Christ need a 2nd Pentecost?; 2. Why the manifestations of the Holy Spirit like speaking in tounges, prophecy and gift of healing were not given to the established churches in those time, because so the result was, it splittet the worldwide church. 3. In the time of reformation many churches where build (Lutheran, Baptist; Bretheren; Calvinists, Mennonite etc.) Why then God spared out this churches with the gifts of the spirit?
I cant see that the spirit of god in these movements, even it looks like. In the churchhistory and today you will find sects and pagans who also have speaking in tounges, healing and prophecie.

 

[atwhatcost]

In all of the Charismatic service examples I have seen, at no time did the pastor placing his hand on the head of the person make that person fall forwards.

With the two people in my life that this happened to, (not in my presence), they both said they went down.

One is a believer, the other isn't. The believer said he felt God's presences and telling him the one thing he senses from God every time he feels God's presence -- God saying, "I love you." The nonbeliever was merely shocked he went down, which I am too, because he's such a control freak, it's not in his nature to do that which he doesn't want to do -- particularly to fall down i a room full of strangers.

Is it weird? Sure, but so is a donkey talking. Does it mean it can't happen? Does it mean God would never do it or that if it happens to you it's not from God? Does it mean you aren't saved, if it does? Prove that, if that's what you believe. If you can't, why harp on it?

I never saw anywhere in the Bible God stopping the pain of gout without making it go away either, but I know God's done that too. I never saw in the Bible God curing someone of an UTI, but he's done that for me. I've never seen in the Bible where God stops a terrible reaction to a bee sting, but he's done that for me too.

 

[atwhatcost]

Using repetition for memorizing something is certainly not the same thing, which I think you well know. Likewise, repetitions in exercising our flesh body is not the same thing either. But go into a room and play the same drum beats over, and over, and over, while continuously repeating the same words over and over, and see what happens.

My brother came up and told me it to knock it off. They were his drums so I stopped. Now what? This neither proved or disproved anything.

 

[atwhatcost]

Rachel, if you want to find reasons to doubt those manifestations are evil, but instead truly are from The Holy Spirit, then no one is going to prevent you from believing in those manifestations. I put a warning out for brethren, and that's where I stand on those things, and my personal experience in those kind of things when I was younger probably still wouldn't convince you. You'll have discover what I already know about it on your own I suppose.

Your personal experience really doesn't prove anything. If you're doing the age put down, I'm your age, probably have relatively equal experience, and yet...? You have used nothing that has convinced me from a logical stance that something is amiss. It may be amiss, but I have never found any proof for or against that idea, and thus I argue against your take, because there is nothing substantial given from you as proof either.

 

[shotgunner]

Another thing about some of these manifestations, one of the things those Churches explain when people fall backwards, they say that's The Holy Spirit doing that.

So I went to God's Word to check it out, like we are to do...

The ONLY examples I found of anyone falling backwards because of The Holy Spirit were enemies of Christ. When the armed band sent by the Pharisees to sieze Jesus asked for Him ...

John 18:5-6
5 They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus saith unto them, "I am He." And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as He had said unto them, "I am He", they went backward, and fell to the ground.
KJV

Chronicles 5:13-14King James Version (KJV)[SUP]13 [/SUP]It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.


1 Kings 8:10-11King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord.

 

[Willie-T]

So does that mean you've tossed the baby with the bathwater? I always figured that the harder the devil tries to muddy the waters with counterfeits, the more powerful the real thing must be.

Discernment, not dismissal, is the key.

So true, and likely one of the reasons Satan incites people to fight so hard against the grace Paul taught.