Why, I oughta rep you for this! Gimme a second... There!
Kefa is right - the gifts/signs are real, but they're not found in a man-made circus act. Find a church that teaches the gifts minus the hoopla and you'll see the real thing!
The Charismatic movement?
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Why, I oughta rep you for this! Gimme a second... There!
Kefa is right - the gifts/signs are real, but they're not found in a man-made circus act. Find a church that teaches the gifts minus the hoopla and you'll see the real thing!
Yes they truly are. Makes me wish I could ridicule non-believers into seeing them!
'Cause you know, reasoned scripture quoting doesn't work on them.
Very true ... let me add this:
If a 'Cessationist' is a part of or witness to a miraculous healing, then s/he has witnessed a gift of the Holy Spirit. So the question is why does s/he not recognize or acknowledge it as a gift of the Spirit? I think a lot of it has to do with image. The 'working of the gifts' has been hijacked by the babble and act stupid crowd, and they don't want to be associated with that. And I can't blame them. I'm a functionalist, and I don't want to associate with them either. But yes, I've known 'Cessationists' who have been given/witnessed a gift of the Spirit, and turned right around and said that wasn't what Paul was talking about.
But oh yes, it is.
I'm old enough to remember Oral Roberts faith healer and snake oil salesman.
You is full of baloney. No office of healer.
God heals through mercy and we are to pray for healing through mercy not merit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
Kefa54
Guest
My spiritual gift is "Giving"
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I know this because I have the ability to give of my time. I am not even close to well off money wise but it all works out. I give of myself in HOSPICE, and Addictions Recovery.
Wisdom comes out of me that I know isn't my doing. People in HOSPICE and recovery say that they feel calm and accepted by me. Again another thing that I am sure is not of me. also I never seem to run out of energy when it comes to Hospice and Recovery.
I have just always been in some sort of giving position. From shoveling show for the elderly as a child to helping/teaching developmentally delayed students in high school. It was just always there.
None of this comes from me. It all comes from Jesus in me.
Kefa
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I know this because I have the ability to give of my time. I am not even close to well off money wise but it all works out. I give of myself in HOSPICE, and Addictions Recovery.
Wisdom comes out of me that I know isn't my doing. People in HOSPICE and recovery say that they feel calm and accepted by me. Again another thing that I am sure is not of me. also I never seem to run out of energy when it comes to Hospice and Recovery.
I have just always been in some sort of giving position. From shoveling show for the elderly as a child to helping/teaching developmentally delayed students in high school. It was just always there.
None of this comes from me. It all comes from Jesus in me.
Kefa
M
Mitspa
Guest
Of course ...and the rest of the New Testament as evidence of signs and the Power of the Holy Spirit...what do you reject parts of the bible?
M
Mitspa
Guest
M
Mitspa
Guest
Could you please give the Bible verse that talks about the "office" of healing? I'm not finding that in my Bible.
That sounds like a nice thing to be confident of in Him
I am involved in the addiction community due to being an addict in recovery myself, having been delivered by God from it after decades of abuse, when I cried out to Him for help, not even really believing that He existed, nor thinking that drugs and alcohol were a problem, despite having been hospitalized on a number of occasions, as a direct result of them. 
The spiritual "gifts" are not given to belong to us. For instance, the gift of healing is for the one who is sick. And the Holy Spirit will use whom He wishes to be that vessel. Even the gift of teaching is for the student. Always His gifts! For the one who needs the gift.
Im old enough to remember when people believed the bible ....
I'm old enough to remember when people believed all of it
K
Kefa54
Guest
Poor choice on my part, I grabbed healer because it had already been tossed out. Replace that with 'prophecy' and 'prophet' for a more accurate rendering.
Jesus gave them plenty of signs, but they refused to believe them. And said He did so by the power of the devil.
If you read a little further from this chapter, you'll see Jesus doing more healings and miracles. He gave them plenty of signs. And in Acts we see more signs. Etc, etc. Healing isn't only a sign though, it's also called the "children's bread".
C.
If you read a little further from this chapter, you'll see Jesus doing more healings and miracles. He gave them plenty of signs. And in Acts we see more signs. Etc, etc. Healing isn't only a sign though, it's also called the "children's bread".
C.
Here's another Scripture that is against much of what is being taught on this thread:
1 Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Scripture says DESIRE the higher (or greater) gifts. You pursue love, but desire the gifts.
Mark 16:16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Signs follow believers. Many call themselves Christians, but Jesus says signs follow believers not Christians.
Many many people are saved through healing and miracles. It is a sad thing, when people call these ministries snake oil. But I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, the same was said about Jesus. Or even worse that these people are somehow healing people by the power of the enemy!
Paul says we do not preach a gospel of words, but of power. Yet many today want to say the "power" of God is no longer needed. Because we have "Scriptures". Pharisees had Scriptures too yet the power of God was certainly needed then as it is today. Instead of arguing with atheists, heal someone. It works, I've seen it happen many times.
Here's something else that you should consider. Christ is anointing. Anti is opposed.
Antichrists are those who oppose the anointing of God. What is the anointing of God? the Spirit of God.
Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
And here's an example of Him setting liberty to the oppressed:
Luke 4:35But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm. 36And they were all amazed and said to one another, “What is this word? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out!”
This is the Ministry of Christ. Christ is Anointing.
C.
1 Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Scripture says DESIRE the higher (or greater) gifts. You pursue love, but desire the gifts.
Mark 16:16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Signs follow believers. Many call themselves Christians, but Jesus says signs follow believers not Christians.
Many many people are saved through healing and miracles. It is a sad thing, when people call these ministries snake oil. But I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, the same was said about Jesus. Or even worse that these people are somehow healing people by the power of the enemy!
Paul says we do not preach a gospel of words, but of power. Yet many today want to say the "power" of God is no longer needed. Because we have "Scriptures". Pharisees had Scriptures too yet the power of God was certainly needed then as it is today. Instead of arguing with atheists, heal someone. It works, I've seen it happen many times.
Here's something else that you should consider. Christ is anointing. Anti is opposed.
Antichrists are those who oppose the anointing of God. What is the anointing of God? the Spirit of God.
Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
And here's an example of Him setting liberty to the oppressed:
Luke 4:35But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm. 36And they were all amazed and said to one another, “What is this word? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out!”
This is the Ministry of Christ. Christ is Anointing.
C.
Dear Cee, well, i have read the link which you gave and found special for the time of reformation not really a proof that the charismatic teachings of Heailng, speaking in tounges ore prophecie are a teached in all the denominations which founded in those days: Mennonites; Calvinists, Lutheren (I came from a lutheren background before Christ found me), Baptist; Bretheren and so on. Why then the Lord should not reveal such an important thing to the common church? Instead we find these teachings in sects like new apostolic church (Irving) ore other groups.
The teaching of what we call pentecostal ore charismaric movemenet startet in 1901 in Topeka, kansas and in 1905/6 in Azusa Street LA and spread to the world. When it came to germany first at all lot of the common denomiations leaders saw it could come from God.
But then they saw all the events: shaking, falling backward;moving and noising like animals and statet its a spirit from down (Satan) and even Leaders which first convinced its from God step back and left the pentecostal comunities. If the penecostal movement in those days comes from God, then why he could not convinced the established denominations? It came to an splitting into the christianhood.
You mentioned the Purpose of Jesus. Read John 20, 30 and 31! Was this not his purpose! To proof that he is the Christ! He did Signs! And fulfilled what the Prophets of the OT told about the Messiah!
All the people which Jesus and the Apostels healed had to die one day. And I suppose trough another deseas. If would be his purpose that wehave no sickness, than he failed! But this was not his Purpose and is not today. I working in hospital and seeing sick people every day. rare of them will be healed. The most have to take medicine livelong so that the can manage whith the sickness.
Sorry, today claim people to have the gift of healing. But they cant say it works all time. What is that for a proof? Do not all of we as children of god have the privilige to pray for a beloved person who is sick to the father and ask him for healing?
Sometimes he does and sometimes not. What is the reason for that? Do we have sin? Do we have not faith enough? Has the sick person not faith enough? What for a pressure! We have to live with sickness and weakness and getting older. Till we are in heaven with our Lord! And still we should trust in our heavenly father, even we are sick!
What say Jesus to Thomas in John 20,29? Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
I was 20 years involved in mission ministrie in India. The Indians where I worked togehter were no charismatics. But they saw and gave witness from the Things what the Lord did. The Lord healed a sick Hindu and the whole family turned to Jesus. Simply Believers ore the churchmembers prayed and the Lord answered the prayer.
Of course the Lord heales extraordinary today special in such fields were the enemy is present. Of course we can not work without the holy spirit is leading and giftet us for our task.
Today special in our western countrys we christians are not satisfyed with only trusting and obeying the Lord: We want events, feelings, touching the Lord, having something special. But what is when the feelings are gone? Is then also our faith gone? Renember what Jesus said to Thomas!
The charismatic movement leeds away from the truth: We should trust, obeying and fearing the Lord!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Folks make some broad statements ..which in truth are just dishonest to a large degree.... "fearing the Lord" must not include telling the truth?
painting all the charismatic type groups with the same brush ..is like painting all Baptist with the Westboro tag...
I know what I know and what I have seen and the Lord has shown me...error is very common in all born-again groups.
If its not born-again...its not a real Christian group.
painting all the charismatic type groups with the same brush ..is like painting all Baptist with the Westboro tag...
I know what I know and what I have seen and the Lord has shown me...error is very common in all born-again groups.
If its not born-again...its not a real Christian group.