The Charismatic movement?

[DP]

Here, someone gave me something for you...

Mock all you want, but you're not mocking me, you're mocking God's Word as written in Acts 2, because you refuse it as written, and instead want to add your own opinion to parts, and take away other parts.

And as of yet, no one here that support the gibberish tongue has yet admitted to the actual written words in Acts 2 being that the peoples present on Pentecost heard the Apostles speaking in their own language dialects of their birth.

 

[DP]

Oh and, yeah, keep ignoring that pesky 1 Corinthians 14 passage. I can see how acknowledging that would show how limited your view is on the subject.

I do not ignore any of God's Holy Writ.

You just cannot get past Acts 2 first without trying to bring up 1 Cor.14. Acts 2 must be first properly understood before one can understand what Paul was speaking of in 1 Cor.12-14.

 

[DP]

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

That is how the Holy Spirit manifested to them. As tongues of fire.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

That is how the Holy Spirit worked thru them

Two different things my friend. If you still can't see that, enjoy the sweater.

That part of Acts 2 is ONLY about The Holy Spirit manifesting through the Apostles that were speaking to the multitude.

And now what the people present actually heard them speak...

Acts 2:5-11
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God
KJV

 

[RickyZ]

The people present on Pentecost heard the Apostles speaking in their own language dialects of their birth.

No one is disputing that.

What is disputed and Biblically supported is that the cloven tongues refer to the Holy Spirit fire, not to what they were speaking; and speaking in worldly dialects that you don't know is not the only manifestation of tongues you will find in the Bible.

There. Can't say it any clearer than that. And I'm not interested in cleaning your glasses for you any beyond this.

Sorry to mock you but it's hard to resist someone who paints such a large bulls-eye on their lips.

 

[DP]

The people present on Pentecost heard the Apostles speaking in their own language dialects of their birth.

No one is disputing that.

That in italics is exactly... what has been disputed here.

No sense in the trying to sugarcoat that fact with attempts to change the subject to how The Holy Spirit sat on the Apostles.

I could also bring up Peter's reference to Joel 2 which many misunderstand, not even realizing what time the Joel 2 passage he quoted is really for. But it's obvious those who support the babel speech that has to be interpreted by men can't even get past the Acts 2 evidence of how the true cloven tongue manifested on Pentecost.

And rightly so, because admitting what the peoples on Pentecost actually heard the Apostles speak would tend to bring down the whole Pentecostal-Charismatic movement.

 

[notuptome]

The people present on Pentecost heard the Apostles speaking in their own language dialects of their birth.

No one is disputing that.

But that won't stop you from going beyond what the scriptures teach.

What is disputed and Biblically supported is that the cloven tongues refer to the Holy Spirit fire, not to what they were speaking; and speaking in worldly dialects that you don't know is not the only manifestation of tongues you will find in the Bible.

There. Can't say it any clearer than that. And I'm not interested in cleaning your glasses for you any beyond this.

Sorry to mock you but it's hard to resist someone who paints such a large bulls-eye on their lips.

There is no evidence that anyone ever spoke in anything but languages of human origin. Babbling is not speaking in tongues it is babbling. Babel was a sign of Gods judgment upon mankind for their rebellion and conspiring to approach God on their terms.

There is evidence that people who speak in babblings are in fact demonically possessed. The catholic books on exorcism document their attempts to deal with demons and they use babblings as evidence of the presence of demons.

I know it's only marginal charismatics that believe in babblings as tongues but I wanted to be up front on the matter. Perhaps is just marginal Christians that get involved in these things??

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

I know it's only marginal charismatics that believe in babblings as tongues but I wanted to be up front on the matter. Perhaps is just marginal Christians that get involved in these things??

you need to get out more

the world is full of folks who speak in tongues

and sing and worship and pray...goes on all the time!

you don't have to participate...I certainly don't participate where folks ignore the Holy Spirit or think He is simply an adjunct and not a full member of the Godhead

I can't figure how folks can believe or say they believe in a man who said He was God, died and came back to life, all the while they never saw this man, or how a virgin gave birth to a son or how they can believe all those miracles throughout the Bible really happened but when it comes to anything supernatural...mind you God is ALWAYS supernatural according to our little noodles....they back off it like a cat on the proverbial hot tin roof and make just as much noise about it as a cat would make with its claws

go figure

do y'all know what faith is or do you just believe in what you can touch (Bible) see (Bible) and smell (Bible...those nice leather bound editions do have a pleasant smell when new)?

 

[RickyZ]

Far too many Christians say they've bought a sports car - but then they only run it in first gear. They think that once the manufacturer proved it was fast, they locked out all the upper gears - because having proven it was fast, it no longer needs to go fast.

Then they refuse all forms of drivers ed...

It's sad, so very very sad

 

[ember]

oh...is that what the long line-up at the stop sign is about?

 

[notuptome]

you need to get out more

the world is full of folks who speak in tongues

and sing and worship and pray...goes on all the time!

you don't have to participate...I certainly don't participate where folks ignore the Holy Spirit or think He is simply an adjunct and not a full member of the Godhead

I can't figure how folks can believe or say they believe in a man who said He was God, died and came back to life, all the while they never saw this man, or how a virgin gave birth to a son or how they can believe all those miracles throughout the Bible really happened but when it comes to anything supernatural...mind you God is ALWAYS supernatural according to our little noodles....they back off it like a cat on the proverbial hot tin roof and make just as much noise about it as a cat would make with its claws

go figure

do y'all know what faith is or do you just believe in what you can touch (Bible) see (Bible) and smell (Bible...those nice leather bound editions do have a pleasant smell when new)?

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Come out from them and touch not the unclean thing. Separate yourself unto the Lord thy God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

But that won't stop you from going beyond what the scriptures teach.

There is no evidence that anyone ever spoke in anything but languages of human origin. Babbling is not speaking in tongues it is babbling. Babel was a sign of Gods judgment upon mankind for their rebellion and conspiring to approach God on their terms.

There is evidence that people who speak in babblings are in fact demonically possessed. The catholic books on exorcism document their attempts to deal with demons and they use babblings as evidence of the presence of demons.

I know it's only marginal charismatics that believe in babblings as tongues but I wanted to be up front on the matter. Perhaps is just marginal Christians that get involved in these things??

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We had a brief moment of common-sense agreement a while back, in that those who tempt God by handling poisonous snakes in 'church' are nothing like those who have a Paul-like experience with a poisonous snake... and that even tho some flaunt scripture incorrectly by purposefully handling snakes, they do not take away from the fact that people can still have a Paul like miracle with poisonous snakes.

So let's have another common sense agreement that even tho some tempt God by babbling incoherently in 'church', it does not take away from the fact that others may still have a Paul-like experience with tongues a la 1 Cor.14.

 

[notuptome]

We had a brief moment of common-sense agreement a while back, in that those who tempt God by handling poisonous snakes in 'church' are nothing like those who have a Paul-like experience with a poisonous snake... and that even tho some flaunt scripture incorrectly by purposefully handling snakes, they do not take away from the fact that people can still have a Paul like miracle with poisonous snakes.

So let's have another common sense agreement that even tho some tempt God by babbling incoherently in 'church', it does not take away from the fact that others may still have a Paul-like experience with tongues a la 1 Cor.14.

I have a lot less difficulty with tongues as languages than as babble. Paul is correcting the Corinthian church not praising them. There is no evidence that Paul ever taught or condoned babbling in church or in prayer. It is all conjecture by those who are worldly and attempting to appear spiritual.

There is no proof text when the verse is taken in context. Tongues must be kept in context as a sign to Israel through the OT. Tongues must be kept in context of the apostolic church as it was predominately Jewish in nature. Tongues cannot be wrested from their contexts and inserted into the modern church which is predominately Gentile in nature. There is context for a Paul like experience in propagating the gospel where language is a barrier but in modern times there are so many resources at hand to overcome language barriers it would indeed be very rare, very rare.

I also suspect that the worship atmosphere in the apostolic church was quite different from todays modern wired up, amped up contemporary affairs. The day may return when we are worshipping in secret for fear of our life if things continue to go along their current trajectory. That could produce some genuine apostolic miracles but the price might be the blood of many modern martyrs for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Come out from them and touch not the unclean thing. Separate yourself unto the Lord thy God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

and what is the unclean thing here? the Holy Spirit?

you can't defend scripture from itself...which is basically what you and several others are doing

 

[kohelet]

The Greek word dialektos is actually where our English word 'dialect' originates.

Merriam-Webster
"a form of a language that is spoken in a particular area and that uses some of its own words, grammar, and pronunciations"

NT:1258
dialektos (dee-al'-ek-tos); from NT:1256; a (mode of) discourse, i.e. "dialect":


KJV - language, tongue.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Nice try though, with trying to twist the meaning of Greek dialketos to mean something else other than dialect.

Hi DP,

I am a translator by trade. You are seeing a meaning in a word in the source language which is not the translation of it, because it reminds you of that word. In language learning this is called a "false friend". This is a mistake easily made; happens to the best of us.

What is less of a mistake is your deliberate misquoting of Strong's concordance to suit yourself. The "i.e. 'dialect', is what you have added. You then quote the Merriam-Webster Dictionary entry under "dialect" to somehow bolster your argument. We all know what dialect means; what we are discussing though, is the meaning of a Greek word.

What Strong's does say, is this:

Strong's Concordance

dialektos: speech, language​

​

​

Original Word: διάλεκτος, ου, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dialektos
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-al'-ek-tos)
Short Definition: language, speech
Definition: language, speech, conversation, manner of speaking.

with not a "dialect" in sight.

Now, this doesn't matter much. The point is that people gathered at Pentecost could understood what was being said. It is disappointing that you would do what you have done and say I am twisting Scripture.

 

[Mitspa]

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

also known by some blasphemers as "babble"

 

[RickyZ]

I have a lot less difficulty with tongues as languages than as babble. Paul is correcting the Corinthian church not praising them. There is no evidence that Paul ever taught or condoned babbling in church or in prayer. It is all conjecture by those who are worldly and attempting to appear spiritual.

There is no proof text when the verse is taken in context. Tongues must be kept in context as a sign to Israel through the OT. Tongues must be kept in context of the apostolic church as it was predominately Jewish in nature. Tongues cannot be wrested from their contexts and inserted into the modern church which is predominately Gentile in nature. There is context for a Paul like experience in propagating the gospel where language is a barrier but in modern times there are so many resources at hand to overcome language barriers it would indeed be very rare, very rare.

I also suspect that the worship atmosphere in the apostolic church was quite different from todays modern wired up, amped up contemporary affairs. The day may return when we are worshipping in secret for fear of our life if things continue to go along their current trajectory. That could produce some genuine apostolic miracles but the price might be the blood of many modern martyrs for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Paul was indeed correcting the Corinthian church, I picture them as being much like the circus acts you find in many churches today. That's why Paul told them to put a leash on it.

But Paul didn't say STOP TALKING IN TONGUES, he told them to DO IT CORRECTLY.

As for them being of Israel, consider this Were the Corinthians Jews? A. E. Knoch

 

[RickyZ]

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

also known by some blasphemers as "babble"

I hear people babble in English all the time. The blasphemers would have us believe then that ALL English is babbling. The lack of discernment among some is astounding.

 

[PoetMary]

The first time I ever heard a cessationist argument regarding the spiritual gifts was when I was 19 and attending a Bible Church. I went with a group of college students of varied backgrounds (several of whom spoke in tongues), and we were the vast majority of the college group at that church. My own background involved being raised in RCC, spending sometime in a Syrian-Chaldean rite church, being an active member of an evangelical youth group, and having parents who were charismatic Catholics.

What shocked me the most is how NONE of us said anything to the guy who was teaching the college Sunday school class. None of us challenged him. I was a bit stymied because I'd never heard anyone say that it just didn't happen anymore.

I remember thinking at the time, "I can name at least 10 Christians that I know and trust who speak in tongues." It was the oddest thing to me that someone would claim that it just flat out NEVER happened after a certain point.

Of course, I've gotten braver since then, and would challenge such a teaching now.

 

[ukok102nak]

:read:
1 Corinthians: 14. 1. Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual [manifestations], but rather that ye may prophesy.
2. For he that speaks with a tongue does not speak to men but to God: for no one hears; but in spirit he speaks mysteries.
3. But he that prophesies speaks to men [in] edification, and encouragement, and consolation.
4. He that speaks with a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies [the] assembly.
:smoke: There are approximately more than 175 languages and dialects in the Philippines which form part of the regional languages group. A few of these languages and dialects are spoken by in islands communities such as Abaknon in Capul island. :happy:

:scarf: thank you very much

God bless us all always