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E
nah, We need their books. It is what made me understand what they believed so I could make a decision if I wanted to follow them or not.
I have changed my view on many things concerning end times and prophesy. We should all be open minded.
of course, if we all just read scripture and tool it literally. We would not be having alot of these discussions.
I have changed my view on many things concerning end times and prophesy. We should all be open minded.
of course, if we all just read scripture and tool it literally. We would not be having alot of these discussions.
I believe that they form part of Israel just like we do when we accept Christ as the Messiah. When we speak the word Israel people have two opinions:
1) A small country between Africa and the Middle East
2) The nation in the desert
As you know the original nation Israel does not exist anymore. But let us think about the words of Christ that He came for the lost sheep of Israel. I believe with all my heart and soul that He came for me and if we look at all the evidence I am convinced that I do form part of the Spiritual Israel
1) A small country between Africa and the Middle East
2) The nation in the desert
As you know the original nation Israel does not exist anymore. But let us think about the words of Christ that He came for the lost sheep of Israel. I believe with all my heart and soul that He came for me and if we look at all the evidence I am convinced that I do form part of the Spiritual Israel
E
I believe that they form part of Israel just like we do when we accept Christ as the Messiah. When we speak the word Israel people have two opinions:
1) A small country between Africa and the Middle East
2) The nation in the desert
As you know the original nation Israel does not exist anymore. But let us think about the words of Christ that He came for the lost sheep of Israel. I believe with all my heart and soul that He came for me and if we look at all the evidence I am convinced that I do form part of the Spiritual Israel
1) A small country between Africa and the Middle East
2) The nation in the desert
As you know the original nation Israel does not exist anymore. But let us think about the words of Christ that He came for the lost sheep of Israel. I believe with all my heart and soul that He came for me and if we look at all the evidence I am convinced that I do form part of the Spiritual Israel
The church did not replace Israel. Israel is still Israel.
E
Yes my friend, but Jesus said he came for the lost house of Israel... I once was lost but now I'm found (I like that song)
He did, He alwasys was going to go to them first.
He then said he would go to a peoapel who were not his own (gentiles)
If your a child of God, your a child of God. Praise God for that..
E
I have, and changed it many times
But when it comes to this theology. No one has showed me any reason to change. And I have heard it all. Especially now that I have heard your flavor of it..
Amillenialism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. All one has to do is literally take the bible at what it says and not make an allegory of prophesy.
When God says this will happen, By Golly it will happen, If it has not happened yet, and to admit it has not happened yet we must change our belief system. We do not make an allegory of the thing which God said would happen, to make that prophesy fit our belief, We change our belief to fit what God said will happen.
But when it comes to this theology. No one has showed me any reason to change. And I have heard it all. Especially now that I have heard your flavor of it..
Amillenialism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. All one has to do is literally take the bible at what it says and not make an allegory of prophesy.
When God says this will happen, By Golly it will happen, If it has not happened yet, and to admit it has not happened yet we must change our belief system. We do not make an allegory of the thing which God said would happen, to make that prophesy fit our belief, We change our belief to fit what God said will happen.
K
Gods promise to Abraham was unconditional!
Gen.15-But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?” {the land}So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”...As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. ...When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces.18 On that day the Lordmade a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land,from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
God put Abraham into a deep sleep.He did not pass through the pieces of the sacrificed animals which means the covenant was unconditional! It was based on GODS faithfulness.And only GOD can break it.
So where did God break His unconditional promises made to Israel?
Isaiah 66:88 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
How is this not referring to modern day Israel? To deny that it is is completely nonsensical.
Is.11:11-In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.
Jer.30:3-The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,' says the LORD."
Jer.31:35-this is what the Lord says,he who appoints the sunto shine by day,who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar the Lord Almighty is his name:“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,declares the Lord,“will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”This is what the Lord says:“Only if the heavens above can be measure and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,”declares the Lord.
How can it be made more plain? "Being a nation before me" A NATION! Not spiritual!!
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (Joel 3:2)
Gen 26-And the Lord appeared to him and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; dwell in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. 4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
Ex, 2 - During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. 24 God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob. 25 So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them.
Ex-6:2-God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,[a] but by my name the Lord[b] I did not make myself fully known to them. 4 I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they resided as foreigners. 5 Moreover, I have heard the groaning of the Israelites, whom the Egyptians are enslaving, and I have remembered my covenant....And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the Lord.’”
[h=1]Exodus 32:11-14-....Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[/h]The promise was unconditional! He swore by himself!
[h=1]Deuteronomy 34:4-Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.” {to Moses}
I Chron.- Remember his covenant forever,the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
16 the covenant that he made with Abraham,his sworn promise to Isaac,which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,to Israel as an everlasting covenant,saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan,
as your portion for an inheritance.”
Ps. 105-He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
Luke 1-
He has helped his servant Israel,remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,just as he promised our ancestors.” [/h]
For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. (Zechariah 2:8)
Gen.15-But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?” {the land}So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”...As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. ...When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces.18 On that day the Lordmade a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land,from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
God put Abraham into a deep sleep.He did not pass through the pieces of the sacrificed animals which means the covenant was unconditional! It was based on GODS faithfulness.And only GOD can break it.
So where did God break His unconditional promises made to Israel?
Isaiah 66:88 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
How is this not referring to modern day Israel? To deny that it is is completely nonsensical.
Is.11:11-In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.
Jer.30:3-The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,' says the LORD."
Jer.31:35-this is what the Lord says,he who appoints the sunto shine by day,who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night,who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar the Lord Almighty is his name:“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,declares the Lord,“will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”This is what the Lord says:“Only if the heavens above can be measure and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,”declares the Lord.
How can it be made more plain? "Being a nation before me" A NATION! Not spiritual!!
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. (Joel 3:2)
Gen 26-And the Lord appeared to him and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; dwell in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. 4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
Ex, 2 - During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. 24 God heard their groaning and he remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob. 25 So God looked on the Israelites and was concerned about them.
Ex-6:2-God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,[a] but by my name the Lord[b] I did not make myself fully known to them. 4 I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they resided as foreigners. 5 Moreover, I have heard the groaning of the Israelites, whom the Egyptians are enslaving, and I have remembered my covenant....And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the Lord.’”
[h=1]Exodus 32:11-14-....Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[/h]The promise was unconditional! He swore by himself!
[h=1]Deuteronomy 34:4-Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.” {to Moses}
I Chron.- Remember his covenant forever,the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,
16 the covenant that he made with Abraham,his sworn promise to Isaac,which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute,to Israel as an everlasting covenant,saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan,
as your portion for an inheritance.”
Ps. 105-He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
Luke 1-
He has helped his servant Israel,remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,just as he promised our ancestors.” [/h]
For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. (Zechariah 2:8)
Why can't you take literally what Paul said, that the promises were to Abraham and Christ?
Abram literally asked GOD for confirmation that he would receive the land, and GOD responded literally with a covenant promising the land to his seed. When is someone going to explain how GOD promising to give the land to Abram's descendents would literally set his mind at ease that he would indeed receive the land?
Abram literally asked GOD for confirmation that he would receive the land, and GOD responded literally with a covenant promising the land to his seed. When is someone going to explain how GOD promising to give the land to Abram's descendents would literally set his mind at ease that he would indeed receive the land?
Israel is used two ways in Scripture:
1) the descendants of Jacob, which includes Judah
2) the Northern Kingdom which excludes Judah and Benjamin
The way to differentiate in context is that when the Northern Kingdom is intended, context will make it obvious.
Since that is not the case in Mt 15:24, Judah is included.
1) the descendants of Jacob, which includes Judah
2) the Northern Kingdom which excludes Judah and Benjamin
The way to differentiate in context is that when the Northern Kingdom is intended, context will make it obvious.
Since that is not the case in Mt 15:24, Judah is included.
E
I did.
Christ is the reason all the nations of the world are blessed. That is literal. Salvation is by Christ.
That has nothing to do with land promises. which were never salvic to begin with,
So abraham asked for confirmation, and God confirmed it by saying the land would be given to some man thousands of years in the future?? WHAT??
Gen 15: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
do you not know that the same hebrew word is used here as was used in the following verse you use as your proof verse?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
which can be translated seed, offspring, child, descendent, family, or race?
So your going to tell me it was Jesus God was speaking of?
Jesus will be a stranger in the land for 400 years (egypt) Jesus had to wait until the sin of the amorite was complete? Jesus will come out of Egypt with great possessions, Jesus will return to the land of cannan in the fourth generation after abraham Dies?
You do not go to some passage in the NT to interpret the passage, the passage can be literally interpreted by itself. just take it in context. Who are his seed? The children of Isreal. Who were slaves for 400 years. who departed that land when the sin of the ammorite was completed. God judged Egypt. And blessedIsreal. and after some more time (due to Israels sin in the wilderness) he finally gave them possession of what he gave to them through abraham.
I just did, Not to mention. Even Moses understoood it.
"abraham believed (had faith) In God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
God told him, You will not get it, But your offspring will. After the sin of the ammorite is complete. Abraham took him at his word. God doe snot have to give proof.
Christ is the reason all the nations of the world are blessed. That is literal. Salvation is by Christ.
That has nothing to do with land promises. which were never salvic to begin with,
So abraham asked for confirmation, and God confirmed it by saying the land would be given to some man thousands of years in the future?? WHAT??
Gen 15: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
do you not know that the same hebrew word is used here as was used in the following verse you use as your proof verse?
[SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
which can be translated seed, offspring, child, descendent, family, or race?
So your going to tell me it was Jesus God was speaking of?
Jesus will be a stranger in the land for 400 years (egypt) Jesus had to wait until the sin of the amorite was complete? Jesus will come out of Egypt with great possessions, Jesus will return to the land of cannan in the fourth generation after abraham Dies?
You do not go to some passage in the NT to interpret the passage, the passage can be literally interpreted by itself. just take it in context. Who are his seed? The children of Isreal. Who were slaves for 400 years. who departed that land when the sin of the ammorite was completed. God judged Egypt. And blessedIsreal. and after some more time (due to Israels sin in the wilderness) he finally gave them possession of what he gave to them through abraham.
I just did, Not to mention. Even Moses understoood it.
"abraham believed (had faith) In God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
God told him, You will not get it, But your offspring will. After the sin of the ammorite is complete. Abraham took him at his word. God doe snot have to give proof.
Isa 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV
Acting always at the Father's direction, Jesus realized that before the resurrection, His ministry was to the descendants of Jacob. After the resurrection His ministry included the Gentiles ad foretold by Isaiah.
NO LITTLE WHITE LIE!
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV
Acting always at the Father's direction, Jesus realized that before the resurrection, His ministry was to the descendants of Jacob. After the resurrection His ministry included the Gentiles ad foretold by Isaiah.
NO LITTLE WHITE LIE!