Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[eternally-gratefull]

Gen 15:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also The nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. [SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

there is no way possible to interpret descendents here as Christ alone!

 

[MarcR]

Oooh, so plan A was not perfect and God needed plan B. The perfect non-changing God needed plan B?

This makes perfect sense thank you for enlightening me. I will accept it because James57 said so... and if God ask me about it I will tell him James57 made me do it

Already answered in my 2 previous posts.

 

[MarcR]

there is no isreal which comes from gentile bloodline, the only gentile blood would be abrahams.. through issac and jacobs, Non of the other of abrahams children were part of those promises.

Except for Rachab's and Ruth's contributions.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So abraham asked for confirmation, and God confirmed it by saying the land would be given to some man thousands of years in the future?? WHAT??

GOD bound himself with Abraham in a blood covenant to give the land to Christ, with whom Abram would receive it in the resurrection. That was a very strong anchor for Abram's faith.

Again, you can provide no explanation how GOD promising to give the land to Abram's descendents would anchor Abram's faith in the promise.

 

[MarcR]

Yes all the TRUE ISRAEL will be saved whether consisting of Messiah believing Jews or Messiah believing Gentile proselytes.

Notice that it takes all the fullness of the Gentiles being gathered in for all Israel to be saved. They are an essential part of the true Israel.

But not all of natural Israel are true Israel (9.6). The whole point of Rom 9-11 is that the true Israel consists of Messiah believing Israel and Gentile proselytes who have believed in the Messiah[/B]





JACOB is ISRAEL is THE CHURCH. The true church is the only true Israel approved of God on this earth. Any other position stinks to high heaven. It denies the cross and resurrection.

Neither you nor I have any idea how inclusive Ro 11:26 is. Setting limits on what God can or will do is at best unwise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

GOD bound himself with Abraham in a blood covenant to give the land to Christ, with whom Abram would receive it in the resurrection. That was a very strong anchor for Abram's faith.

Again, you can provide no explanation how GOD promising to give the land to Abram's descendents would anchor Abram's faith in the promise.

I did, By proving it with context in vs 12 - 16. There is no way possible you can interpret that to be Christ.

Your on your own on this one my friend, Not even your ammilenial friends would agree here. 99.9 % of them agree God gave Israel the land, They just think he fulfilled his promise to them when they recieved all of it. They forgot, God said forever.. Maybe thats why your trying to make this mean Christ? Because forever trips you up also. so you need to explain that?

 

[MarcR]

Yes all the TRUE ISRAEL will be saved whether consisting of Messiah believing Jews or Messiah believing Gentile proselytes.

Notice that it takes all the fullness of the Gentiles being gathered in for all Israel to be saved. They are an essential part of the true Israel.

But not all of natural Israel are true Israel (9.6). The whole point of Rom 9-11 is that the true Israel consists of Messiah believing Israel and Gentile proselytes who have believed in the Messiah[/B]





JACOB is ISRAEL is THE CHURCH. The true church is the only true Israel approved of God on this earth. Any other position stinks to high heaven. It denies the cross and resurrection.

You didn't get that from Scripture! You should take it back where it came from and demand a refund,; because, IT DOESN'T FIT! The Church is definitely included in Israel; but Zec 12:10- 13:2 is still future but immanent.

 

[MarcR]

I wonder what the mixed multitude would have answered you that moved out of Egypt with Israel

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle

Maybe they also covered their ears and eyes the day Moses gave Israel the law...

Likely they were killed off during one of the rebellions.

 

[Grandpa]

John 3:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


I don't really understand Replacement theology to its fullest. But doesn't the whole world fall under these scriptures? Even physical Jews?

Or do physical Jews get a pass just because of their physical lineage? I just don't really understand elevating a people group that are without Christ just because of their nationality. Its what supremacists do.



On the other hand, we cannot condemn or judge any people group because we were just like them at one point or another. Without God in this world. The other thing I wonder about is how does anyone know who is a descendant of the original 12 tribes of Israel?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I did, By proving it with context in vs 12 - 16. There is no way possible you can interpret that to be Christ.

Your on your own on this one my friend, Not even your ammilenial friends would agree here. 99.9 % of them agree God gave Israel the land, They just think he fulfilled his promise to them when they recieved all of it. They forgot, God said forever.. Maybe thats why your trying to make this mean Christ? Because forever trips you up also. so you need to explain that?

All you did was say that since seed in Genesis 15:13 means descendents that seed in verse 18 must also mean descendents. That doesn't prove anything because seed can be both singular and plural depending on the context. The context of the promises was defined by Paul, who said the promises were to Abraham and Christ, yet you are in denial of that because of your beliefs.

 

[MarcR]

well of course not. Paul spoke in future tense.

Again, Your thinking is off.. Wishful thinking nothing, What do I care if All israel is saved, it has no bering on my salvation.

God said it, I believe it, Thats it!

God said it! That settles it! and you do well to believe it!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All you did was say that since seed in Genesis 15:13 means descendents that seed in verse 18 must also mean descendents. That doesn't prove anything because seed can be both singular and plural depending on the context. The context of the promises was defined by Paul, who said the promises were to Abraham and Christ, yet you are in denial of that because of your beliefs.

Your joking right?

All I did was use what God said about the seed in vs 13 - 17 as proof of who the seed was in vs 18.

I used context to interpret the passage, not a possible hebrew interpretation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 3:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


I don't really understand Replacement theology to its fullest. But doesn't the whole world fall under these scriptures? Even physical Jews?

Or do physical Jews get a pass just because of their physical lineage? I just don't really understand elevating a people group that are without Christ just because of their nationality. Its what supremacists do.



On the other hand, we cannot condemn or judge any people group because we were just like them at one point or another. Without God in this world. The other thing I wonder about is how does anyone know who is a descendant of the original 12 tribes of Israel?

Gods promises concerning the nation of Israel have nothing to do with anyone eternal destination. Jew or gentile
I think Thats where the confusion takes place.

 

[crossnote]

John 3:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


I don't really understand Replacement theology to its fullest. But doesn't the whole world fall under these scriptures? Even physical Jews?

Or do physical Jews get a pass just because of their physical lineage? I just don't really understand elevating a people group that are without Christ just because of their nationality. Its what supremacists do.



On the other hand, we cannot condemn or judge any people group because we were just like them at one point or another. Without God in this world. The other thing I wonder about is how does anyone know who is a descendant of the original 12 tribes of Israel?

Replacement Theology somehow has the Church be the old Israel, minus the consequences of breaking the Mosaic law.
Rome, with it's kingdom here on earth is a prime example, all the promises go to the Church...the curses remain on the Jews.
This has festered anti semitism throughout the RCC history.

 

[ember]

Yes, but the New Covenant is still superior to the Mosaic Law.

The law would still be in effect if Christ had not fullfilled because He died without sin

The New Covenant was in place from day one if you read Genesis and what God said to Adam

The law is still in effect for all those outside of Christ...they have no redemption...their price has not been paid on the altar

 

[Grandpa]

Gods promises concerning the nation of Israel have nothing to do with anyone eternal destination. Jew or gentile
I think Thats where the confusion takes place.

I suppose I disagree.

The Lord says His Words are Spirit and they are Life.

I don't think there was ever a time when this wasn't so.

 

[valiant]

Gen 15:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also The nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. [SUP]18 [/SUP]On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— [SUP]19 [/SUP]the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, [SUP]21 [/SUP]the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

there is no way possible to interpret descendents here as Christ alone!

And as He promised He gave them the land after the return from Exile when Jews and Israelites gathered to the land from many places.

But as He had made clear in Numbers 14.11-12 He saw Himself as able to disinherit them and replace them with a nation formed from one man, now Jesus Christ. Israel have forfeited the promises, though He may well bring many Jews to Himself in the future. What He is not bound to do is give them the land. And Heb 11.10-6 makes clear that it is a heavenly land.

 

[Grandpa]

Replacement Theology somehow has the Church be the old Israel, minus the consequences of breaking the Mosaic law.
Rome, with it's kingdom here on earth is a prime example, all the promises go to the Church...the curses remain on the Jews.
This has festered anti semitism throughout the RCC history.

I wonder how a saved person can have any emotion toward an unsaved person that is anything but a kind of sadness for their ignorance.

I don't think racism is going to help anyone be saved in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose I disagree.

The Lord says His Words are Spirit and they are Life.

I don't think there was ever a time when this wasn't so.

So when Go said get circumcised. This is the sign of the covenant between me and you forever.

He was speaking spiritually? and how one is to get saved?

Again, the confusion is in the interpretation.

What is salvic. and what is just a promise of blessing..

 

[ember]

I'm gonna say it

This thread contains some extremely bad mashed up scripture...shoved in where it does not belong and cut out of where it does belong

Where did some of you get your ideas from? Israel was never God's chosen people? Really? you had to have cut out portions, nay BOOKS, of the Bible to enter that realm

I also have not found in scripture where Gentiles are grafted into Israel? There are references to spiritual Israel, but where does the Bible go so far as to say Gentiles become Jewish?

Like I said, what a mish mash.....sad

you are a brave girl kala....LOL! What do some churches teach? or are these wanderings in the desert the result of hermits?