-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Rom 8:15-17
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
KJV
The adoption of the Church is into the family of Jesus. When a child is adopted (s)he is adopted into both sides of the adopting family. On God's side there is of course no lineage; but on Marys side the lineage is the tribe of Judah through David and Nathan.
How would Manasseh be involved?
You're having a hard time admitting the difference?
Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Last edited:
eternally-grateful,
such ignorance is astounding. It's like you never read scripture at all but only the theories imposed upon scripture by egotistical men.
For your elightenment and correct understanding of scripture according to Peter in his sermon at Pentecost.
In Acts 2:30-36, Peter relies upon the prophecies of David concerning Christ by showing that even though the Jews had crucified Jesus, God had raised him from the dead. Peter then shows that this (the death and resurrection of Jesus) fulfilled OT prophecies of David concerning the Messiah. First, David had prophesied of the death and resurrection of the Messiah (vv25-29). Second, David had prophesied that God had sworn with an oath that He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne (v30). In verse 31 Peter makes the application he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ. Peter draws a direct connection between Christ upon his throne and the resurrection of Christ. The kingdom of Christ, the reign of Christ, is not tied to his second coming but to his resurrection!
In verse 32, the apostle proclaims that God raised up Jesus (showing a direct link between the Christ of prophecy and Jesus whom they had crucified), and in verse 33 he declares that this Jesus is now (present tense, as a consequence of his resurrection from the dead) by the right hand of God exalted (tying back once more to the prophecy of David that God would raise his seed to sit on his throne). What’s more, Peter says that in the resurrection and anointing of Jesus to sit on the throne of David he received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.
Then verse 34, Peter announces that all those OT prophecies could not refer to David, for David ascended not into the heavens. The OT prophecies are fulfilled only in Jesus: he was put to death, he was resurrected, he was set upon the throne, he is in the heavens on [God’s] right hand. A future earthly throne? Not according to Peter. Christ is on his throne, and his throne is in heaven.
And how long will he reign?
According to verse 35, till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1Cor. 15:26). Therefore, Christ is now reigning on his throne in heaven, and he will continue to reign there until death (the last enemy) is destroyed (1Cor. 15:25) at his coming (1Cor. 15:23-24). So, you see, there’s no room for a future earthly kingdom. If Christ is not reigning now upon his throne in heaven, then Peter’s sermon and application of OT prophecies makes no sense at all.
This modern theory of dispensationalism, an earthly reign of Christ in some distant future is a direct denial of Christ, who He is and what He accomplished.
To take apocalytical writings as literal is the height of folly which is why most of the explanations have very little to do with scripture, but rather more to do with making a good movie script.
The idea has no history whatsoever until Scofield. How man made can one get. Hardly the Gospel from the beginning.
Futhermore the theory tries to reverse what God has done.
The last king to reign on the Davidic throne of the Old Testament era was Jehoiachin (Coniah). In Jeremiah 22:24-30, it was prophesied that he and his seed (Judah) would be delivered into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar and cast into a foreign land (Babylon). Specifically, concerning Coniah it was said:
“Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no more shall a man of his seed prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling in Judah” (v. 30).
The issue is clear-no descendant of Coniah would ever again prosper, ruling from the literal throne of David. Now, the fact is, Christ was of the “seed” of Jechoniah, both from a legal standpoint (through Joseph - Mt. 1:12,16), and from a physical vantage point (through Mary, via Shealtiel - Lk. 3:27). It thus follows that Christ could never reign on David’s earthly throne-and prosper!
The prophet Zechariah prophesied regarding the Christ thusly:
“Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Jehovah; even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and he shall sit and rule upon his throne; and be shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both” (Zech. 6:12-13).
This passage positively affirms that Christ would function as priest and reign as king on his throne-simultaneously. But, according to Hebrews 8:4, Christ could not act in the role of a priest while on the earth-for he was not descended from the priestly tribe (Heb. 7:14). Since the Lord could not be a priest on earth, and since he is priest and king jointly, it necessarily follows that his reign as king cannot be earthly in nature. Rather, it is heavenly.
The heavenly nature of the reign of Christ is readily apparent in that narrative known as the parable of the pounds recorded in Luke 19:11-27. The parable involves a certain nobleman (Christ) who went into a far country (heaven) to receive a kingdom, and to return. Some citizens, however, sent a message to him, saying, “We will not that this man reign over us.” Finally, having received the kingdom, the nobleman returns to render judgment.
From this account it is perfectly clear that:
the kingdom was received in heaven (not on earth);
the reign was from heaven (not from Jerusalem); and
the return of the nobleman was after the reception of the kingdom (not prior to it).
All of these facts are strikingly at variance with the dispensational/premillennial concept.
King David was informed by the prophet Nathan:
“When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my time, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever” (2 Sam. 7:12-13).
That this is a prediction of the reign of Christ upon David’s throne is beyond question. In view of this promise, David was told: “your throne shall be established for ever” (2 Sam. 7:16). Note the application of this context to Christ by an inspired New Testament writer (Heb. 1:8).
It is extremely significant to note in this connection that Christ is to be seated on David’s throne, over his kingdom, while this illustrious Old Testament king is still asleep with the fathers, i.e., in the grave. In glaring contrast to this, the premillenial notion contends that Christ will sit upon David’s throne after the resurrection of all the righteous-including David.
In harmony with the foregoing is Peter’s declaration:
“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ” (Acts 2:29-31).
The reign of Christ on David’s throne is not an event awaiting future fulfillment. The Son of God has been reigning over his kingdom since the day of Pentecost. Hear his promise to early saints:
“He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne” (Rev. 3:21).
Notice the past tense “sat down.” Clearly, Christ is now on the throne. If it be contended that this passage speaks of Christ on the Father’s throne-and not David’s, it need only be replied that the Father’s throne and David’s are biblically the same. Solomon sat upon the throne of David (1 Kgs. 2:12), which was in reality Jehovah’s throne (1 Chron. 29:23). Hence, when Christ sat down on the Father’s throne, he was on the throne of David! He is presently reigning, and will continue such until all his enemies are destroyed, the last of which will be death (1 Cor. 15:25-26).
To speak of Christ on David’s throne is simply to affirm that our Lord has “all authority”; that to him has been given “all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion” (Eph. 1:21); indeed, that he exercises a regal reign characteristic of the great King that he is. Compare Matthew 23:2, where the authority of the scribes and Pharisees who taught the law is symbolically described as sitting on “Moses’ seat.”
such ignorance is astounding. It's like you never read scripture at all but only the theories imposed upon scripture by egotistical men.
For your elightenment and correct understanding of scripture according to Peter in his sermon at Pentecost.
In Acts 2:30-36, Peter relies upon the prophecies of David concerning Christ by showing that even though the Jews had crucified Jesus, God had raised him from the dead. Peter then shows that this (the death and resurrection of Jesus) fulfilled OT prophecies of David concerning the Messiah. First, David had prophesied of the death and resurrection of the Messiah (vv25-29). Second, David had prophesied that God had sworn with an oath that He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne (v30). In verse 31 Peter makes the application he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ. Peter draws a direct connection between Christ upon his throne and the resurrection of Christ. The kingdom of Christ, the reign of Christ, is not tied to his second coming but to his resurrection!
In verse 32, the apostle proclaims that God raised up Jesus (showing a direct link between the Christ of prophecy and Jesus whom they had crucified), and in verse 33 he declares that this Jesus is now (present tense, as a consequence of his resurrection from the dead) by the right hand of God exalted (tying back once more to the prophecy of David that God would raise his seed to sit on his throne). What’s more, Peter says that in the resurrection and anointing of Jesus to sit on the throne of David he received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.
Then verse 34, Peter announces that all those OT prophecies could not refer to David, for David ascended not into the heavens. The OT prophecies are fulfilled only in Jesus: he was put to death, he was resurrected, he was set upon the throne, he is in the heavens on [God’s] right hand. A future earthly throne? Not according to Peter. Christ is on his throne, and his throne is in heaven.
And how long will he reign?
According to verse 35, till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1Cor. 15:26). Therefore, Christ is now reigning on his throne in heaven, and he will continue to reign there until death (the last enemy) is destroyed (1Cor. 15:25) at his coming (1Cor. 15:23-24). So, you see, there’s no room for a future earthly kingdom. If Christ is not reigning now upon his throne in heaven, then Peter’s sermon and application of OT prophecies makes no sense at all.
This modern theory of dispensationalism, an earthly reign of Christ in some distant future is a direct denial of Christ, who He is and what He accomplished.
To take apocalytical writings as literal is the height of folly which is why most of the explanations have very little to do with scripture, but rather more to do with making a good movie script.
The idea has no history whatsoever until Scofield. How man made can one get. Hardly the Gospel from the beginning.
Futhermore the theory tries to reverse what God has done.
The last king to reign on the Davidic throne of the Old Testament era was Jehoiachin (Coniah). In Jeremiah 22:24-30, it was prophesied that he and his seed (Judah) would be delivered into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar and cast into a foreign land (Babylon). Specifically, concerning Coniah it was said:
“Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no more shall a man of his seed prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling in Judah” (v. 30).
The issue is clear-no descendant of Coniah would ever again prosper, ruling from the literal throne of David. Now, the fact is, Christ was of the “seed” of Jechoniah, both from a legal standpoint (through Joseph - Mt. 1:12,16), and from a physical vantage point (through Mary, via Shealtiel - Lk. 3:27). It thus follows that Christ could never reign on David’s earthly throne-and prosper!
The prophet Zechariah prophesied regarding the Christ thusly:
“Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: and he shall grow up out of his place; and he shall build the temple of Jehovah; even he shall build the temple of Jehovah; and he shall bear the glory, and he shall sit and rule upon his throne; and be shall be a priest upon his throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both” (Zech. 6:12-13).
This passage positively affirms that Christ would function as priest and reign as king on his throne-simultaneously. But, according to Hebrews 8:4, Christ could not act in the role of a priest while on the earth-for he was not descended from the priestly tribe (Heb. 7:14). Since the Lord could not be a priest on earth, and since he is priest and king jointly, it necessarily follows that his reign as king cannot be earthly in nature. Rather, it is heavenly.
The heavenly nature of the reign of Christ is readily apparent in that narrative known as the parable of the pounds recorded in Luke 19:11-27. The parable involves a certain nobleman (Christ) who went into a far country (heaven) to receive a kingdom, and to return. Some citizens, however, sent a message to him, saying, “We will not that this man reign over us.” Finally, having received the kingdom, the nobleman returns to render judgment.
From this account it is perfectly clear that:
the kingdom was received in heaven (not on earth);
the reign was from heaven (not from Jerusalem); and
the return of the nobleman was after the reception of the kingdom (not prior to it).
All of these facts are strikingly at variance with the dispensational/premillennial concept.
King David was informed by the prophet Nathan:
“When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my time, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever” (2 Sam. 7:12-13).
That this is a prediction of the reign of Christ upon David’s throne is beyond question. In view of this promise, David was told: “your throne shall be established for ever” (2 Sam. 7:16). Note the application of this context to Christ by an inspired New Testament writer (Heb. 1:8).
It is extremely significant to note in this connection that Christ is to be seated on David’s throne, over his kingdom, while this illustrious Old Testament king is still asleep with the fathers, i.e., in the grave. In glaring contrast to this, the premillenial notion contends that Christ will sit upon David’s throne after the resurrection of all the righteous-including David.
In harmony with the foregoing is Peter’s declaration:
“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ” (Acts 2:29-31).
The reign of Christ on David’s throne is not an event awaiting future fulfillment. The Son of God has been reigning over his kingdom since the day of Pentecost. Hear his promise to early saints:
“He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne” (Rev. 3:21).
Notice the past tense “sat down.” Clearly, Christ is now on the throne. If it be contended that this passage speaks of Christ on the Father’s throne-and not David’s, it need only be replied that the Father’s throne and David’s are biblically the same. Solomon sat upon the throne of David (1 Kgs. 2:12), which was in reality Jehovah’s throne (1 Chron. 29:23). Hence, when Christ sat down on the Father’s throne, he was on the throne of David! He is presently reigning, and will continue such until all his enemies are destroyed, the last of which will be death (1 Cor. 15:25-26).
To speak of Christ on David’s throne is simply to affirm that our Lord has “all authority”; that to him has been given “all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion” (Eph. 1:21); indeed, that he exercises a regal reign characteristic of the great King that he is. Compare Matthew 23:2, where the authority of the scribes and Pharisees who taught the law is symbolically described as sitting on “Moses’ seat.”
My point is is if Israel and the Church are the same why does God give them a separate distinction in the Eternal City?
Sounds like that distinction will be there for eternity. ..
Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Sounds like that distinction will be there for eternity. ..
Revelation 21:10-14 (KJV)
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.