Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

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Biblelogic01

Guest
So I have not fully read through the thread that much, but has anyone mention the connection of Ezekiel 34 and John 10?

Through Ezekiel it's prophecied that the nation of Israel is to be scattered, it does not say anything about Israel being replaced after it's scattered. It's prophecied that God is going to gather them from the nations and bring them together as one; the northen kingdom (which split away and scattered amongst the gentiles), and the southern kingdom the Jews.

As far as the northen kingdom, if they're scattered amongst the gentiles, that means God intended/intends to have gentiles brought into the mix of Israel, with the Jews making them one again. And it's said they will still be called Israel. There is no replacement mentioned.

Then in John 10 Jesus states He's the good shepherd coming to bring 2 flocks together. This is Jesus speaking of the prophecy of Ezekiel.

So based off of that scripture right there, it should end this silly debate of any kind of replacement theology, because neither God (through Ezekiel) or Jesus state Israel is going to be replace, but brought together as a whole.

This obviously has not fully happened yet because you have a section of Christiandom refusing the Jews, and then you have a majority of Judaism refusing Christ.

Jesus broke the wall down that separates the gentiles from coming into the covenants God has made with Israel, thus allowing it possible for Israel to become one again.

Christians need to accept Jews, and Jews need to accept Christians because they are one in the body of Christ.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
So I have not fully read through the thread that much, but has anyone mention the connection of Ezekiel 34 and John 10?

Through Ezekiel it's prophecied that the nation of Israel is to be scattered, it does not say anything about Israel being replaced after it's scattered. It's prophecied that God is going to gather them from the nations and bring them together as one; the northen kingdom (which split away and scattered amongst the gentiles), and the southern kingdom the Jews.

As far as the northen kingdom, if they're scattered amongst the gentiles, that means God intended/intends to have gentiles brought into the mix of Israel, with the Jews making them one again. And it's said they will still be called Israel. There is no replacement mentioned.

Then in John 10 Jesus states He's the good shepherd coming to bring 2 flocks together. This is Jesus speaking of the prophecy of Ezekiel.

So based off of that scripture right there, it should end this silly debate of any kind of replacement theology, because neither God (through Ezekiel) or Jesus state Israel is going to be replace, but brought together as a whole.

This obviously has not fully happened yet because you have a section of Christiandom refusing the Jews, and then you have a majority of Judaism refusing Christ.

Jesus broke the wall down that separates the gentiles from coming into the covenants God has made with Israel, thus allowing it possible for Israel to become one again.

Christians need to accept Jews, and Jews need to accept Christians because they are one in the body of Christ.
THAT.....makes entirely too much sense! I think you need leave the thread right now because you are going to infect everyone else with too much sense. And then we'll all be sensible and have nothing to argue about. And then what will we do? I mean,have you thought of the consequences of all this common sense? I do not think you have! :p
 
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Biblelogic01

Guest
THAT.....makes entirely too much sense! I think you need leave the thread right now because you are going to infect everyone else with too much sense. And then we'll all be sensible and have nothing to argue about. And then what will we do? I mean,have you thought of the consequences of all this common sense? I do not think you have! :p
Lol, I didn't realize common sense would cause a problem though. :D

But sadly I guess it can :(
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
Lol, I didn't realize common sense would cause a problem though. :D

But sadly I guess it can :(


Oh ho you are soooo wrong! If you read these pages it would make your head spin! No wonder people look at the church and walk away. We bicker here so much its a wonder anyone gets saved. But common sense? No its not appreciated by most here. But since I started the thread and I appreciate logic and common sense please continue,for as long as you can stand it.lol
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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Oh ho you are soooo wrong! If you read these pages it would make your head spin! No wonder people look at the church and walk away. We bicker here so much its a wonder anyone gets saved. But common sense? No its not appreciated by most here. But since I started the thread and I appreciate logic and common sense please continue,for as long as you can stand it.lol
I wonder if there has been anyone saved as the result of reading or participating in any of these threads.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
I wonder if there has been anyone saved as the result of reading or participating in any of these threads.
I very highly doubt it. It wasn't my intent to start WW3 but to point out an error in a theology that has been used to persecute and murder Jews down through history.I wanted to warn Christians of this error.But to point out error here you have to brace yourself to be called all manner of names and accused of all sorts of things. Still I will stand and say Replacement Theology is wrong,now matter the degree or new false name or spin they want to put on it. Its an antisemitic heresy,has been down through history. Its not new. So my aim is to warn people who dont know about it. Those who believe the heresy will have to answer to God. I dont care about their arguments Im just hoping to open at least one persons eyes to this false evil doctrine. My mission will be accomplished if I have.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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I wonder if there has been anyone saved as the result of reading or participating in any of these threads.
No, it really is an in house 'discussion' and thank God one's salvation doesn't hinge on their view of Israel and the Church.
It's just that the replacement theology thingy has been in the past a spawning ground for antisemitism.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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So I have not fully read through the thread that much, but has anyone mention the connection of Ezekiel 34 and John 10?

Through Ezekiel it's prophecied that the nation of Israel is to be scattered, it does not say anything about Israel being replaced after it's scattered.
Israel were scattered as a consequence of the exile. True believers were gathered back to Palestine in the period that followed the return from exile so that by the time of Jesus Christ 'Jews' from all the tribes were back in the land


It's prophecied that God is going to gather them from the nations and bring them together as one; the northen kingdom (which split away and scattered amongst the gentiles), and the southern kingdom the Jews.
which was what happened after the exile between 538 BC and 1 AD
.
As far as the northen kingdom, if they're scattered amongst the gentiles, that means God intended/intends to have gentiles brought into the mix of Israel, with the Jews making them one again.
in terms of ethnicity it is doubtful if there is one Westerner who is not a Jew, that is has Jewish blood in their veins. Through the centuries Jews have intermarried with Gentiles resulting in the spreading of the Jewish bloodline.

Very few if any Jew in modern Israel can prove their bloodline. Indeed in allowing peoples to become Israelites not much emphasis has been placed on bloodline as no evidence could be produced.

The Israelites scattered throughout Mesopotamia and Egypt also freely intermarried so that it is probable that large numbers of Middle-easterner are Jews (have Jewish blood in their bloodline) including many Arabs.

And it's said they will still be called Israel. There is no replacement mentioned.

Then in John 10 Jesus states He's the good shepherd coming to bring 2 flocks together. This is Jesus speaking of the prophecy of Ezekiel.

So based off of that scripture right there, it should end this silly debate of any kind of replacement theology, because neither God (through Ezekiel) or Jesus state Israel is going to be replace, but brought together as a whole.

This obviously has not fully happened yet because you have a section of Christiandom refusing the Jews, and then you have a majority of Judaism refusing Christ.

Jesus broke the wall down that separates the gentiles from coming into the covenants God has made with Israel, thus allowing it possible for Israel to become one again.
Who then are Jews today? Whoever decides to call himself a Jew (this was the basis on which Israel was formed).

But who are the true Israel? Answer: those millions of Jews who believed in the Messiah who CONTINUED to be the Israel accepted by God. The remainder were rejected by God, never to be restored unless as individuals they come to believe in the Messiah.

That Israel accepted by God was augmented by Gentile proselytes who became Messiah believers and thus Israelite proselytes. They TOO CONTINUED as the true Israel. There was no question of replacement. They always have been Israel. It is unbelieving Jews who are no longer Israel. That is the message of Rom 9-11.

Christians need to accept Jews, and Jews need to accept Christians because they are one in the body of Christ.
Total nonsense. Unbelieving Jews are NOT in the body of Christ. They can only become so by believing in the Messiah and being incorporated back in to the true Israel which is made up of all true believers in Christ
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Sure seems like another future distinction here..

Revelation 7:1-8 (HCSB)
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, restraining the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel rise up from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were empowered to harm the earth and the sea:
3 Don't harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

And then compare the above group with this group...

Revelation 7:9-10 (HCSB)
9 After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!

12 tribes/every nation, tribe, people etc.
 
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valiant

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Mar 22, 2015
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Is The Church the True Israel?
The question being asked here is whether the early church saw itself as the true Israel? It should be noted that by this we are not speaking of ‘spiritual Israel’, except in so far as Israel were supposed to be spiritual, or of a parallel Israel, but as to whether they saw themselves as actually being the continuation of the real Israel whom God had promised to bless.

In this regard the first thing we should note is that Jesus spoke to His disciples of ‘building His congregation/church (ekklesia)’ (Matthew 16.18). Now the Greek Old Testament often used ekklesia to refer to the congregation of Israel when translating the Pentateuch (see Deuteronomy 4.10; 9.10; 18.16; 23.3, 8; 32.1 ). This suggests then that Jesus was here thinking in terms of building the true congregation of Israel.

It thus ties in with John 15.1-6 where He calls Himself the true vine, in contrast with old Israel, the false vine.

While this did come after He had said that He had come only to ‘the lost sheep of the house of Israel’, that is those of Israel who were as sheep without a shepherd (Matthew 10.6; 15.24 compare 9.36 and see Jeremiah 50.6), it also followed the time when His thinking clearly took a new turn following His dealings with the Syro-phoenician woman, when He began a ministry in more specifically Gentile territory. So while at the core of His ‘congregation’ were to be those Jews who responded to His teaching and became His followers, He undoubtedly envisaged a wider outreach.

Thus there is good reason to think that in His mind the ‘congregation/church’ equates with the true ‘Israel’, the Israel within Israel (Romans 9.6), as indeed it did in the Greek translations of the Old Testament where ‘the congregation/assembly of Israel’, which was finally composed of all who responded to the covenant, was translated as ‘the church (ekklesia) of Israel’. That being so we may then see it as indicating that He was now intending to found a new Israel, which it later turned out would include Gentiles.

Indeed this was the very basis on which the early believers called themselves ‘the church/congregation’, that is the congregation of the new Israel, and while they were at first made up mainly of Jews and proselytes, which was all that the Apostles were expecting until God forcibly interrupted them, this gradually developed into including both Jews and Gentile proselytes.

Indeed in Acts 4.27-28 Luke demonstrates quite clearly that the old unbelieving Israel is no longer, after the resurrection, the true Israel, for we read, "For in truth in this city against your holy Servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatever your hand and your council foreordained to come about." Note the four ‘items’ mentioned, the Gentiles, the peoples of Israel, ‘King’ (Tetrarch) Herod and Pontius Pilate the ruler. And note that these words follow as an explanation of a quotation from Psalm 2.1 in Acts 4.25- 26, which is as follows:
‘Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things, The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord and against His anointed --.’

The important point to note here is that ‘the peoples’ who imagined vain things, who in the original Psalm were nations who were enemies of Israel, have now become in Acts ‘the peoples of Israel’. Thus the ‘peoples of Israel’ who were opposing the Apostles and refusing to believe are here seen as the enemy of God and His Anointed, and of His people. It is a clear indication that old unbelieving Israel was now seen as numbered by God among the nations, and that that part of Israel which had believed in Christ were seen as the true Israel. As Jesus had said to Israel, ‘the Kingly Rule of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruits’ (Matthew 21.43). Thus the King now has a new people of Israel to guard and watch over.

The same idea is found in John 15.1-6. The false vine (the old Israel - Isaiah 5.1-7) has been cut down and replaced by the true vine of ‘Christ at one with His people’ (John 15.1-6; Ephesians 2.11-22). Here Jesus, and those who abide in Him (the church/congregation), are the new Israel. The old unbelieving part of Israel has been cut off (John 15.6) and replaced by all those who come to Jesus and abide in Jesus, that is both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (Romans 11.17-28), who together with Jesus form the true Vine by becoming its 'branches'.

The new Israel, the ‘Israel of God’, thus sprang from Jesus. And it was He Who established its new leaders who would ‘rule over (‘judge’) the twelve tribes of Israel’ (Matthew 19.28; Luke 22.30). Here ‘the twelve tribes of Israel’ refers to all who will come to believe in Jesus through His word, and the initial, if not the complete fulfilment, of this promise occurred in Acts.

This appointment of His Apostles to rule 'over the tribes of Israel' was not intended to divide the world into two parts, consisting of Jew and Gentile, with the two parts seen as separate, and with Israel under the Apostles, while the Gentiles were under other rulers, but as describing a united Christian ‘congregation’ under the Apostles. Thus those over whom they ‘ruled’ would be ‘the true Israel’ which would include both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. These would thus become the true Israel.

This true Israel was founded on believing Jews. The Apostles were Jews, and were to be the foundation of the new Israel which incorporated Gentiles within it (Ephesians 2.20; Revelation 21.14). And initially all its first foundation members were Jews. Then as it spread it first did so among Jews until there were ‘about five thousand’ Jewish males who were believers to say nothing of women and children (Acts 4.4). Then it spread throughout all Judaea, and then through the synagogues of ‘the world’, so that soon there were a multitude of Jews who were Christians. Here then was the initial true Israel, a new Israel within Israel.

But then God revealed that He had a more expanded purpose for it. Proselytes (Gentile converts) and God-fearers (Gentile adherents to the synagogues), people who were already seen as connected with Israel, began to join and they also became branches of the true vine (John 15.1-6) and were grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11.17-28). They became ‘fellow-citizens’ with the Jewish believers (‘the saints’, a regular Old Testament name for true Israelites who were seen as true believers). They became members of the ‘household of God’. (Ephesians 2.11-22). And so the new Israel sprang up, following the same pattern as the old, and incorporating believing Jews and believing Gentiles. That is why Paul could describe the new church as ‘the Israel of God’ (Galatians 6.16), because both Jews and Gentiles were now ‘the seed of Abraham’ (Galatians 3.29).

Those who deny that the church is Israel and still equate Israel with the Jews must in fact see all these believing Jews as cut off from Israel (as the Jews in fact in time did). For by the late 1st century AD, the Israel for which those who deny that the church is Israel contend, was an Israel made up only of Jews who did not see Christian Jews as belonging to Israel. As far as they were concerned Christian Jews were cut off from Israel. And in the same way believing Jews who followed Paul’s teaching saw fellow Jews who did not believe as no longer being true Israel. They in turn saw the unbelieving Jews as cut off from Israel. As Paul puts it, ‘they are not all Israel who are Israel’ (Romans 9.6).

For the new Israel now saw themselves as the true Israel. They saw themselves as the ‘Israel of God’ (Galatians 6.16). And that is why Paul stresses to the Gentile Christians in Ephesians 2.11-22; Romans 11.17-28 that they are now a part of the new Israel having been made one with the true people of God in Jesus Christ. In order to consider all this in more detail let us look back in history.

When Abraham entered the land of Canaan having been called there by God he was promised that in him all the world would be blessed, and this was later also promised to his seed (Genesis 12.3;18.18; 22.18; 26.4; 28.14). But Abraham did not enter the land alone. In Genesis 14 we are told that he had three hundred and eighteen fighting men ‘born in his house’, in other words born to servants, camp followers and slaves. One of his own slave wives was an Egyptian (Genesis 16) and his steward was probably Syrian, a Damascene (Genesis 15.2). Thus Abraham was patriarch over a family tribe, all of whom with him inherited the promises, and they came from a number of different nationalities. Only a small proportion were actually descended from Abraham directly.

From Abraham came Isaac through whom the most basic promises were to be fulfilled, for God said, ‘in Isaac shall your seed be called’ (Genesis 21.12; Romans 9.7; see also Genesis 26.3-5). Thus the seed of Ishmael, who was himself the seed of Abraham, while enjoying promises from God, were excluded from the major line of promises. While prospering, they would not be the people through whom the whole world would be blessed. And this was also true of Abraham's later sons born to Keturah. Thus the large part of Abraham's descendants were at this stage already cut off from the full Abrahamic promises. As Paul puts it, as we have seen, 'In Isaac will your seed be called' (Romans 9.7).

Jacob, who was renamed Israel, was born of Isaac, and it was to him that the future lordship of people and nations was seen as passed on (Genesis 27.29) and from his twelve sons came the twelve tribes of the ‘children of Israel’. But as with Abraham these twelve tribes would include retainers, servants and slaves. The ‘households’ that moved to Egypt would include such servants and slaves. The ‘seventy’ were accompanied by wives, retainers, and their children. So the ‘children of Israel’ even at this stage would include people from many peoples and nations. They included Jacob/Israel’s own descendants and their wives, together with their servants and retainers, and their wives and children, ‘many ‘born in their house’ but not directly their seed (Genesis 15.3). Israel was already a conglomerate people. Even at the beginning they were not all literally descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Most were rather ‘adopted’ into the family tribe.

When eventually after hundreds of years they left Egypt they were then joined by a ‘mixed multitude’ from many nations, who with them had been enslaved in Egypt, and these joined with them in their flight (Exodus 12.38). So to the already mixed people of Israel were united with the mixed multitude and became even more of a mixture. At Sinai these were all joined within the covenant and became ‘children of Israel’, and when they entered the land all their males were circumcised as true Israelites (Joshua 5.8). Among these was an 'Ethiopian' (Cushite) woman who became Moses’ wife (Numbers 12.1).

Thus we discover that ‘Israel’ from its commencement was an international community. Indeed it was made clear from the beginning that any who wanted to do so could join Israel and become an Israelite by submission to the covenant and by being circumcised (Exodus 12.48-49). Membership of the people of God was thus from the beginning to be open to all nations by submission to God through the covenant. And these all then connected themselves with one of the tribes of Israel, were absorbed into them, and began to trace their ancestry back to Abraham and Jacob even though they were not true born, and still retained an identifying appellation such as, for example, ‘Uriah the Hittite’. (Whether Uriah was one such we do not know, although we think it extremely probable. But there must certainly have been many who did it).

And even while Moses was alive it proved necessary to make regulations as to who could enter the assembly or congregation of the Lord, and at what stage people of different nations could enter it (Deuteronomy 23.1-8), so that they could then become Israelites.

That this was carried out in practise is evidenced by the numerous Israelites who bore a foreign name, consider for example ‘Uriah the Hittite’ (2 Samuel 11) and many of the mighty men of David (2 Samuel 23.8-28). These latter were so close to David that it is inconceivable that some at least did not become true members of the covenant by submitting to the covenant and being circumcised when it was clearly open to them through the Law.

Later again it became the practise in Israel, in accordance with Exodus 12. 48-49, for anyone who ‘converted’ to Israel and began to believe in the God of Israel, to be received into ‘Israel’ on equal terms with the true-born, and that by circumcision and submission to the covenant. These were later called ‘proselytes’.

In contrast people also left Israel by desertion, and by not bringing their children within the covenant, when for example they went abroad or were exiled. These were then ‘cut off from Israel’, as were deep sinners. ‘Israel’ was therefore always a fluid concept, and was, at least purportedly, composed of all who submitted to the covenant.

When Jesus came His initial purpose was to call back to God ‘the lost sheep of the house of Israel’ (Matthew 10.6), those in Israel who were seeking a Shepherd, and in the main for the first part, with exceptions (e.g. John 4), He limited His ministry to Jews. But notice that those Jews who would not listen to His disciples were to be treated like Gentiles. The disciples were to shake their dust off their feet (Matthew 10.14). So even during Jesus' ministry there was a cutting off as well as a welcoming. After His dealings with the Syro-phoenician woman, He appears to have expanded His thinking, or His approach, further and to have moved into more Gentile territory, and later He declared that there were other sheep that He would also call and they would be one flock with Israel (John 10.16).

Thus when the Gospel began to reach out to the Gentiles those converted were welcomed as part of the one flock. The question that arose then was, ‘did they need to be circumcised in order to become members of the new Israel?’ Was a special proselytisation necessary, as with proselytes to old Israel, which was to be evidenced by circumcision? That was what the circumcision controversy was all about. The Judaisers said 'yes' and Paul said 'No'. And the question was only asked because all saw these new converts as becoming a part of Israel. If they had not seen these Gentiles as becoming a part of Israel there would have been no controversy. There would have been no need for circumcision. It was only because they were seen as becoming proselyte Israelites that the problem arose. That is why Paul’s argument was never that circumcision was not necessary because they were not becoming Israel. He indeed accepted that they would become members of Israel. But rather he argues that circumcision was no longer necessary because all who were in Christ were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ. They were already circumcised by faith. They had the circumcision of the heart, and were circumcised with the circumcision of Christ (Colossians 2.11), and therefore did not need to be circumcised again.

Thus in Romans 11.17-24 he speaks clearly of converted Gentiles being ‘grafted into the olive tree’ through faith, and of Israelites being broken off through unbelief, to be welcomed again if they repent and come to Christ. Whatever we therefore actually see the olive tree as representing, it is quite clear that it does speak of those who are cut off because they do not believe, and of those who are ingrafted because they do believe (precisely as it was to happen with Israel), and this in the context of Israel being saved or not. But the breaking off or casting off of Israelites in the Old Testament was always an indication of being cut off from Israel. Thus we must see the olive tree as, like the true vine, signifying all who are now included within the promises, that is the true Israel, with spurious elements being cut off because they are not really a part of them, while new members are grafted in. The difficulty lies in the simplicity of the illustration which like all illustrations cannot cover every point.


Exactly the same question could be posed about the branches of the vine which are pruned from the vine in John 15.1-6 and are burned in the fire. They too 'appear' to have been members of the true vine. And the same could be said of those caught into the net of the Kingly Rule of Heaven who are finally ejected and brought into judgment (Matthew 13.47-50). They too 'appear' to have been a part of the Kingly Rule of God. Thus the olive tree, the true Vine and the Kingly Rule of Heaven are all seen as seeming to contain false members. On this basis then none of them could surely be the true Israel?
 
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BradC

Guest
As it has been very clearly explained throughout this thread the idea of a future Jewish state has absolutely nothing to do with scripture. As all false teachings based on scripture, it is a wholly misunderstanding/misinterpretation of scripture. It is the typical format of deriving a premise and then looking for proof texts to support it even though they are taken out of context and are misinterpreted while disavowing what scripture actually teaches.

Some false doctrines are quite subtle and not easily discerned. However, when a theory such as dispensationalism can be very easily determined to have been developed by man quite recently and has no historical connection to the meaning of scripture prior to that point, this being the early 19th century it cannot be the meaning of scripture, nor the work of the Holy Spirit.

It is one of the surest test for false teaching. It was not known, believed, practiced prior to the historical point of entry, in other words it was not what the Holy Spirit gave ONCE, Jude 3, is not the unified Gospel from the beginning which has been preserved without change from the beginning.

There is NO content in all of scripture that teaches Christ will return two more times. That there is some future earthly kingdom of the Jews. It is as complete misunderstanding that the Jews of Jesus' day had about the Messiah being some earthly King that would remove the shackles of the Romans. Now we have modern man still holding, resurrecting old false beliefs of 2000 years ago.

The theory is a complete perversion of scripture because it denies the real content and meaning of who Christ is and what He has accomplished for man.
Ez 11:17
20:34
36:11

Is 11:11,12
66:8

Jer 30:3,4

John 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Are we not the witnesses of these testimonies of prophecy and do we not establish them as true and having come to pass? Do we not tell others of these things that they might believe also?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Sure seems like another future distinction here..

Revelation 7:1-8 (HCSB)
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, restraining the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
2 Then I saw another angel rise up from the east, who had the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were empowered to harm the earth and the sea:
3 Don't harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God on their foreheads."
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

And then compare the above group with this group...

Revelation 7:9-10 (HCSB)
9 After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!

12 tribes/every nation, tribe, people etc.
Who are the sealed of God? Eph 1.13; 4.30 says that they are the redeemed. The number 12 x 12 x 1000 should be compared with Rev 21 where the whole church is in mind. These 144,000 represent the whole church otherwise you are saying that God has perversely cut out the whole of Dan. The point of the passage is that God has His people numbered even whilst they are a multitude which no man can cumber. There is no false distinction between Jewish Christian and Gentile Christians.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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Who are the sealed of God? Eph 1.13; 4.30 says that they are the redeemed. The number 12 x 12 x 1000 should be compared with Rev 21 where the whole church is in mind. These 144,000 represent the whole church otherwise you are saying that God has perversely cut out the whole of Dan. The point of the passage is that God has His people numbered even whilst they are a multitude which no man can cumber. There is no false distinction between Jewish Christian and Gentile Christians.
Bible reductionism does not help your case.
The names of the 12 specific tribes were named and in the next verse all tribes and nations. By conveniently ignoring the tribes of Israel you attempt to mush them together with all. Different passages uses different names even Dan, the point is they all belong to Israel.
I covered Rev 21 yesterday where the 12 tribes names are on the gates and the 12 apostle names are on the foundations of the New Jerusalem the eternal city.
The distinction still stands.

Revelation 7:4-9 (HCSB)
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Judah, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.
9 After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 21:12, 14 (KJV)
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
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Why is the Church described as a 'firstfruit' and not Israel if they are the same?

James 1:18 (KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
James was talking to Israelites.
 

crossnote

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James was talking to Israelites.
So, are you saying the first fruits were that part of the Church which were Jewish? Fine, it still sets up a distinction and a dilemma concerning OT saints, why weren't they firstfruits if Israel and the Church were the same?...after all, they were 'first'.
 
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Gee I was gone for a few hours, and expected there to be at least one person to step up to the plate and show me that the disciples weren't the remnant of Israel with whom Jesus made the new covenant, but I don't see it. Maybe I better go back and look.

Is the symbolism of 12 disciples lost on anyone?
 

crossnote

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Gee I was gone for a few hours, and expected there to be at least one person to step up to the plate and show me that the disciples weren't the remnant of Israel with whom Jesus made the new covenant, but I don't see it. Maybe I better go back and look.

Is the symbolism of 12 disciples lost on anyone?
Perhaps the new birth explains it. Born Israelites, reborn into the Church, the New Man where there is neither Jew nor Gentile...another distinction!
 
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oh please...are you trying to tell me God has no sense of humor?
sheesh
you know, just wait a minutte...who are you to tell me I don't love the truth?
you don't accept anything anyone has to say but yourself
and that's as ticked off as I intend to get today
chill bro
I Like the humor. I just don't like someone telling me I'm wrong without showing me why.
 
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Perhaps the new birth explains it. Born Israelites, reborn into the Church, the New Man where there is neither Jew nor Gentile...another distinction!
Perhaps, or does? Jesus made the new covenant with Israel, not the 'church'. And it was made before the new birth.

Furthermore, the spiritual realm that you call the church, where no distinctions are made, has names associated with it that are clearly specific to Israel, eg, the Jerusalem above, and the heavenly Zion. Sounds more specific to Israel than the nations.
 

crossnote

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Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Notice, I Will Build my Church, NOT I have been building my Church? ...Another distinction.