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LOL what a good example of Bible reductionism BY YOU. The exact numbers from each tribe named were given. Dan is excluded. There is no honest way in which you can make them include Dan. If you are right God has excised Dan from Irsael.
James 1.1 called the church 'the twelve tribes of Israel (had his letter been aimed at Jews he would necessarily have informed them how to behave towards Gentile Christians). Jesus said that His disciples would rule over 'the twelve tribes of Israel', namely the church. The use of 12 x 12 and of 144,000 as numbers for the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ) confirm what John was saying here in Rev 7. As Paul said in the church there is neither Jew nor Greek. And the church is undoubtedly in mind in Rev 7 which in fact is describing the situation from 1st century AD onwards. It is only your fanciful interpretations that avoid that. So the 144000 undoubtedly include the whole church as numbered and sealed by God.
So the New Jerusalem is the whole church including Old and New Testament saints.
yes between the Old and New Testaments. Pre-Christ Israel (OT believers) and post-Christ Israel (NT believers)
As Eph 1.13; 4.30 make clear the sealed of God are the church of Christ. As seen above (e.g. James 1.1) 'the twelve tribes' means the church to NT believers.
If it is literal it is in error. It does NOT include every tribe of the sons of Israel. Rather it is parabolic.
.
where oh where is Dan. ? The list does not include every tribe.
Yes this is explaining who the 144,000 represent, the whole church of Jesus Christ which will be gathered out of all Christians through the centuries.
yes the believers among the twelve pre-Christian tribes of Israel and the believers among the church founded on the Apostles. The gates allowed in the Old Testament believers from the twelve tribes, the foundation was the Apostles who represented the church of the Messiah. The wall of the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ) is 144,000. A clear interpretation of Rev 7
James 1.1 called the church 'the twelve tribes of Israel (had his letter been aimed at Jews he would necessarily have informed them how to behave towards Gentile Christians). Jesus said that His disciples would rule over 'the twelve tribes of Israel', namely the church. The use of 12 x 12 and of 144,000 as numbers for the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ) confirm what John was saying here in Rev 7. As Paul said in the church there is neither Jew nor Greek. And the church is undoubtedly in mind in Rev 7 which in fact is describing the situation from 1st century AD onwards. It is only your fanciful interpretations that avoid that. So the 144000 undoubtedly include the whole church as numbered and sealed by God.
So the New Jerusalem is the whole church including Old and New Testament saints.
yes between the Old and New Testaments. Pre-Christ Israel (OT believers) and post-Christ Israel (NT believers)
As Eph 1.13; 4.30 make clear the sealed of God are the church of Christ. As seen above (e.g. James 1.1) 'the twelve tribes' means the church to NT believers.
If it is literal it is in error. It does NOT include every tribe of the sons of Israel. Rather it is parabolic.
.
where oh where is Dan. ? The list does not include every tribe.
Yes this is explaining who the 144,000 represent, the whole church of Jesus Christ which will be gathered out of all Christians through the centuries.
yes the believers among the twelve pre-Christian tribes of Israel and the believers among the church founded on the Apostles. The gates allowed in the Old Testament believers from the twelve tribes, the foundation was the Apostles who represented the church of the Messiah. The wall of the New Jerusalem (the bride of Christ) is 144,000. A clear interpretation of Rev 7
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I don't believe in replacement theology. I believe God founded Israel so that the true believers among them would be His people, that from the beginning He welcomed in Gentile proselytes, and that that Israel CONTINUED in the true believers of the days of the Apostles and afterwards. The true Israel never ceased worshipping God and the Messiah. That is the message of Rom 9-11.
B
First part of the reply is to as who the Jews are.
The name/term Jew comes from the split of the kingdom of Israel.
The Southern Kingdom is known as Judah, which is where Jew came from.
So when I say Jew I am referencing thos with the lineiage to the Kingdom of Judah, which can be traced very easily.
I know this because my dad, explained to me that his lineiage comes from the Russian Jews that came to America when they were being kicked out of Russia. On top of that my dad did DNA testing to look at his ancestry, and our ancestry trace back to to the region of the area in the Middle East that the Southern Kingdom was in.
No the northern kingdom, referred to either as Israel or Ephraim, is the part that was atually scattered amongst the nations, and is extremely hard to trace back.
It looks as you are referring to the whole of Israel as Jews, which only a part of the whole of Israel is concidered the Jews.
When reading the prophets, one needs to pay very close attention to what is being said. The language it uses a lot is the terms Israel, Ephraim, and Judah it's all referrencing which part of the whole of Israel is. Again when the prophets reference Israel vs. Judah or Ephraim vs. Judah, it's basically referrencing Northern Kingdom vs. Southern Kingdom.
So simply as far as who the Jews are, it's just someone who is a decendant from the Kingdom of Judah.
Now part 2.
You may correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption.
My assumption is that you are stating that basically stating is that God ultimately gave up on the whole of Israel, so God Himself changed to conform to the gentiles because the northern kingdom was scattered amongst the nations (despite the northern kingdom being the main cause of the split and turning away from God's ways). So God conforms to the northern kingdom, and leaves the southern kingdom completely doomed and punished even though they kept God's ways. Thus ultimately replacing Israel with a "new system".
The makes no sense and is not biblical.
See the reason why the northern kingdom was scattered is because they had poor leadership and went away from God's ways. The southern kingdom had poor leadership and perversed God's was by adding to His ways, thus still making it not God's ways.
When God came into covenant with Israel it was a love language similar to marriage, and it was basically a marrying of God and Israel together.
Israel as a whole became an adulterer by doing their own things whether it be steering away from God's covenant, or adding their own traditions into His covenant.
Ultimately according to God's covenant there has to be a sacrifice for sin when there is adultry (it wasn't always immediately stoning).
Jesus paid that price of the adultery of Israel because God loves Israel and He wants His people in His covenant.
Jesus was that ultimate sin offering/sacrifice to cover the adultry of Israel.
Now along with that since the northern kingdom was disperssed amongst the nations (gentiles), Jesus' death broke the wall/barrier that kept gentiles out of the convenant between God and Israel. This why it's said there is no Greek/gentile or jew in Christ. Because Jesus broke that barrier and took it away.
There are faults on both sides as far as northern/southern kingdoms and what they did so there was that sacrifice needed for the 2 to come back together as one.
Now I do agree with you, that the Jews need to come and accept Christ, but that does not make them non-included or replaced as far as what/who Israel is to God.
Anyone who is a believer is a child of Israel, because that's what God calls His people.
G
Dan actually answers the question that this does not refer to the Church but Israel. Dan is reserved to Judge Israel. Israel's judge comes from Dans tribe.
Gen 49~~16“Dan shall judge his people, As one of the tribes of Israel. 17“Dan shall be a serpent in the way,
A horned snake in the path,
That bites the horse’s heels,
So that his rider falls backward.
Gen 49~~16“Dan shall judge his people, As one of the tribes of Israel. 17“Dan shall be a serpent in the way,
A horned snake in the path,
That bites the horse’s heels,
So that his rider falls backward.