Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[Hoffco]

Some of you are so unlearned in studying a great book as to watch for the author style, how does he use words ,literal figurative, parts of speech, etc.etc. The Bible is not a magical book. It is a great piece of literature, it uses all types of writing. We should not interpret one part as to contradict other parts. One verse must be seen in context and not taken in a way that contridicts the whole. and other parts. Jesus is a new comer in the Bible characters, He is not going to say things that His creator Father , and/or He has been doing Himself, as the eternal WORD of GOD, for 4,000 yrs. Jesus has no past, as a man, He was just created in Mary's womb. 30 yrs ago. He will now be, "the same yesterday, today and for ever" but that could not be said of JESUS, 50 yrs before He was created. Jesus could not claim ,as a man, I have been and I will keep building My Church, as I have, for 4,000 yrs, He is only 30 plus yrs old. OK. Can you accept this logic.?? Jesus said some very STUPID thing, which He did not mean literally. A camel can not go thru the eye of a needle, no one will ever EAT jesus body or drink His blood. it is figurative language. Jh. 3:16 can,and is, taken out of context and its real meaning is destroyed. Jesus qualified, explained, 3:16 with the rest of the Bible. Try to think out of the cultic box of todays Fundamentals and warped Reformed thinking. Analyze and synthetically build your own Bible theology, thinking.
D,

 

[Jimbone]

Some of you are so unlearned in studying a great book as to watch for the author style, how does he use words ,literal figurative, parts of speech, etc.etc. The Bible is not a magical book. It is a great piece of literature, it uses all types of writing. We should not interpret one part as to contradict other parts. One verse must be seen in context and not taken in a way that contridicts the whole. and other parts. Jesus is a new comer in the Bible characters, He is not going to say things that His creator Father , and/or He has been doing Himself, as the eternal WORD of GOD, for 4,000 yrs. Jesus has no past, as a man, He was just created in Mary's womb. 30 yrs ago. He will now be, "the same yesterday, today and for ever" but that could not be said of JESUS, 50 yrs before He was created. Jesus could not claim ,as a man, I have been and I will keep building My Church, as I have, for 4,000 yrs, He is only 30 plus yrs old. OK. Can you accept this logic.?? Jesus said some very STUPID thing, which He did not mean literally. A camel can not go thru the eye of a needle, no one will ever EAT jesus body or drink His blood. it is figurative language. Jh. 3:16 can,and is, taken out of context and its real meaning is destroyed. Jesus qualified, explained, 3:16 with the rest of the Bible. Try to think out of the cultic box of todays Fundamentals and warped Reformed thinking. Analyze and synthetically build your own Bible theology, thinking.
D,

Man, a bit condescending are we? Thank goodness we had you to come and straiten all of us out in such a clear, precise, understandable, and humble manner. May God bless you and your whole family as only He can, have a nice day brother.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I have no idea what this babble is, bible verses please

New covenant made with Israel > Matthew 26:28

Gentiles allowed to partake of the blessings of the new covenant > Acts 10

 

[Hoffco]

Sorry Valiant, you make false assumptions that can not be proven by the text. The 144,000 are Jews and the number is 144,000 only, no more. YOU play GOD ,you rewrite your own Bible. this is playing the fool.Humble yourself and listen to God's word.!! Love to all, Hoffco

 

[MarcR]

I wonder if there has been anyone saved as the result of reading or participating in any of these threads.

It would be wonderful if we would all conduct ourselves as Jesus' ambassadors; but that seems unlikely to happen.

It is the nature of a forum to be a place where ideas are placed under attack to discover whether they are defensible or to build skills in defending them.

Ideally the attacks should be confined to ideas, and we should treat each other civilly and politely.

It seems that ability to do that is NOT a criterion for forum membership.

In spite of all that, I believe it is still possible for a seeker to be saved here; since that is ultimately God's work, NOT OUR's.

 

[kaylagrl]

As Crossnote has said this theology has been the cause of antisemitism down through church history. The Catholic Church was the first to put Jews in ghettos and make them wear the yellow star. Some of the early church fathers were antisemitic. And it all comes down to Replacement Theology Heresy. The belief that the Jews receive all the curses and the "church" receives all the blessings.

Justin Martyr- The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

John Chrysostom -The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls…

Peter the Venerable-Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.


John Calvin-Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.



​These are the words of CHRISTIAN men! Is it any wonder that the Holocaust happened with this kind of attitude?! It was the beginning of Replacement Theology Heresy. And it was being taught in the churches while many churches began to persecute the Jews. And then we wonder why they just wont accept this loving Jesus we try to introduce them to. Lets hear from one of the most famous chruch reformers...Martin Luther...


Martin Luther-- Even if they {Jews} were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.
Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...
Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…


Now Im not accusing anyone here of feeling this way about the Jews.At lease I hope no one feels this way.But when you support the Replacement Theology this is what you are supporting! It is heresy!

 

[valiant]

First part of the reply is to as who the Jews are.

The name/term Jew comes from the split of the kingdom of Israel.
The Southern Kingdom is known as Judah, which is where Jew came from.

I am well aware of that although it included large numbers of people from each of the twelve tribes.

So when I say Jew I am referencing thos with the lineiage to the Kingdom of Judah, which can be traced very easily.

It actually cannot be traced at all. It is simply an assumption.

I know this because my dad, explained to me that his lineiage comes from the Russian Jews that came to America when they were being kicked out of Russia.

But they do not have a genuine lineage going back too 1st century AD

On top of that my dad did DNA testing to look at his ancestry, and our ancestry trace back to to the region of the area in the Middle East that the Southern Kingdom was in.

So would most of us include such ancestry. LOL how can anyone specifically trace their DNA back to the area the southern kingdom was in? in the mid 19th century it was EMPTY of population. Thus there is no one to trace the DNA back to.

No the northern kingdom, referred to either as Israel or Ephraim, is the part that was atually scattered amongst the nations, and is extremely hard to trace back.

Actually people from both parts were scattered. There were a lot more dispersions than the Babylonian captivity.

It looks as you are referring to the whole of Israel as Jews, which only a part of the whole of Israel is concidered the Jews.

But that part of Israel contained numerous Israelites from all the tribes as the OT makes clear.

When reading the prophets, one needs to pay very close attention to what is being said. The language it uses a lot is the terms Israel, Ephraim, and Judah it's all referrencing which part of the whole of Israel is.

No, the term Israel changes its meaning in the OT. The returnees saw themselves as ISRAEL (Ezra 2).

Again when the prophets reference Israel vs. Judah or Ephraim vs. Judah, it's basically referrencing Northern Kingdom vs. Southern Kingdom.

But not when they just speak of Israel. Furthermore the Judah they referred to was a mixture of the 12 tribes as the OT makes clear. After the exile they saw themselves as ISRAEL.

So simply as far as who the Jews are, it's just someone who is a decendant from the Kingdom of Judah.

But there is no valid way of knowing WHO is descended from the kingdom of Judah. The evidence is lacking.

Now part 2.
You may correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption.
My assumption is that you are stating that basically stating is that God ultimately gave up on the whole of Israel, so God Himself changed to conform to the gentiles because the northern kingdom was scattered amongst the nations (despite the northern kingdom being the main cause of the split and turning away from God's ways). So God conforms to the northern kingdom, and leaves the southern kingdom completely doomed and punished even though they kept God's ways. Thus ultimately replacing Israel with a "new system".

The makes no sense and is not biblical.

See the reason why the northern kingdom was scattered is because they had poor leadership and went away from God's ways. The southern kingdom had poor leadership and perversed God's was by adding to His ways, thus still making it not God's ways.

When God came into covenant with Israel it was a love language similar to marriage, and it was basically a marrying of God and Israel together.
Israel as a whole became an adulterer by doing their own things whether it be steering away from God's covenant, or adding their own traditions into His covenant.
Ultimately according to God's covenant there has to be a sacrifice for sin when there is adultry (it wasn't always immediately stoning).
Jesus paid that price of the adultery of Israel because God loves Israel and He wants His people in His covenant.
Jesus was that ultimate sin offering/sacrifice to cover the adultry of Israel.
Now along with that since the northern kingdom was disperssed amongst the nations (gentiles), Jesus' death broke the wall/barrier that kept gentiles out of the convenant between God and Israel. This why it's said there is no Greek/gentile or jew in Christ. Because Jesus broke that barrier and took it away.

There are faults on both sides as far as northern/southern kingdoms and what they did so there was that sacrifice needed for the 2 to come back together as one.

Now I do agree with you, that the Jews need to come and accept Christ, but that does not make them non-included or replaced as far as what/who Israel is to God.
Anyone who is a believer is a child of Israel, because that's what God calls His people.

LOL such a view would make no sense to me either. You really need to read my posts again. And remember that Israel only means the northern tribes who stayed in the north prior to 8th century BC and after 10th century BC a very short period. After that Israel is used with wider significance.

But non-believers are not and never have been part of true Israel. Judaism saw itself as Israel (Ezra 2). Rom 9-11 is all about Israel (not about the Jews). And this is because the term Israel means 'God's people', that is all believers whether former Jews, former Israelites, or former Gentiles.

 

[valiant]

Sorry Valiant, you make false assumptions that can not be proven by the text. The 144,000 are Jews and the number is 144,000 only, no more. YOU play GOD ,you rewrite your own Bible. this is playing the fool.Humble yourself and listen to God's word.!! Love to all, Hoffco

lol lol lol are you sure you are not godco? lol

 

[Hoffco]

To Jimbone , thanks for you words of honor ,to me, the white headed saint. Meekness is as bold as a lion,true? I have not read any of you posts, so I am in the dark as to what positions you hold. May the LORD bless your young family. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[kaylagrl]

I don't like what he is saying either; but, since he is defending replacement theology, as distasteful as that is; he is not off topic.

Actually he's not defending replacement theology.I can still read what he is saying and he has a whole theology all to himself.Others are arguing replacement and I dont care,they are free to discuss it.But herose is posting every second post arguing whatever they believe with every other poster. They arent discussing,they are arguing and calling others names.Im hoping the mods are watching.

 

[Gr8grace]

It would be wonderful if we would all conduct ourselves as Jesus' ambassadors; but that seems unlikely to happen.

It is the nature of a forum to be a place where ideas are placed under attack to discover whether they are defensible or to build skills in defending them.

Ideally the attacks should be confined to ideas, and we should treat each other civilly and politely.

It seems that ability to do that is NOT a criterion for forum membership.

In spite of all that, I believe it is still possible for a seeker to be saved here; since that is ultimately God's work, NOT OUR's.

True, it is the Holy Spirit's work to minister the gospel to an unbeliever. Even if I preached...............It is not belief in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation

The gospel is still in that message, whether I preach it correctly or not. Get rid of my words and the gospel stands. The Holy Spirit uses the truth, even if most of my own words are wrong.

 

[Hoffco]

To Valant, I see, I am talking to my ELDER : 81yrs. I respect you, and respectively rebuke you. God bless.! BUT what is"godco"? Love Hoffco

 

[MarcR]

I Like the humor. I just don't like someone telling me I'm wrong without showing me why.

It seems very difficult to show you anything. IMO, you talk around other peoples points rather than addressing them.

That makes it very difficult to explain things to you. IMO, you are slightly less teachable than my left shoe; but I will be very happy if you prove me wrong about this!

 

[Hoffco]

God will always over ride the foolish words of most pastors and get His elect saved. by their reading His word for themselves. But God will judge His false prophet, with Hell or loss of rewards. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It seems very difficult to show you anything. IMO, you talk around other peoples points rather than addressing them.

That makes it very difficult to explain things to you. IMO, you are slightly less teachable than my left shoe; but I will be very happy if you prove me wrong about this!

That may be something I need to correct. However, my reason for taking that approach is because sometimes I see so little worth in points being made, or see them as being nothing more than distractions to avoid points that I've made, that I refuse to indulge them.

btw, you do the exact same thing.

 

[valiant]

Some of you are so unlearned in studying a great book as to watch for the author style, how does he use words ,literal figurative, parts of speech, etc.etc.

Thank you O great one. I will inform my alma mater London University that you will teach them how to study the Bible.

The Bible is not a magical book. It is a great piece of literature, it uses all types of writing. We should not interpret one part as to contradict other parts.

Perfectly true but it does use different figures of speech which mean that outwardly it may appear to contradict. It is an eastern book written by easterners. that is why westerners have such difficulty understanding it. They are too prosaic.

One verse must be seen in context and not taken in a way that contridicts the whole. and other parts

.

do you know I think most of us knew that.

Jesus is a new comer in the Bible characters, He is not going to say things that His creator Father , and/or He has been doing Himself, as the eternal WORD of GOD, for 4,000 yrs.

why isn't He?

Jesus has no past, as a man, He was just created in Mary's womb. 30 yrs ago.

you mean in 1985?

He will now be, "the same yesterday, today and for ever" but that could not be said of JESUS, 50 yrs before He was created.

It could be said of the Son

Jesus could not claim ,as a man, I have been and I will keep building My Church, as I have, for 4,000 yrs,

Nowhere did Jesus say that. He was talking about the new true Israel which continued the old Israel of believer.

He is only 30 plus yrs old. OK. Can you accept this logic.??

seems a little weird to me.

Jesus said some very STUPID thing, which He did not mean literally

.

That is YOUR opinion, not mine.

A camel can not go thru the eye of a needle, no one will ever EAT jesus body or drink His blood. it is figurative language.

True but they were illustrations. what was stupid about that?

Jh. 3:16 can,and is, taken out of context and its real meaning is destroyed. Jesus qualified, explained, 3:16 with the rest of the Bible.

I will reserve judgment til I know your opinion.

Try to think out of the cultic box of todays Fundamentals and warped Reformed thinking. Analyze and synthetically build your own Bible theology, thinking.
D,

It is arrogant to call reformed theology warped. They think your view is warped. I don't know about others but I don't follow anyone's views. I study the Scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit. Or shouldn't I listen to Him either?. Is He warped in your opinion?

 

[kaylagrl]

It seems very difficult to show you anything. IMO, you talk around other peoples points rather than addressing them.

That makes it very difficult to explain things to you. IMO, you are slightly less teachable than my left shoe; but I will be very happy if you prove me wrong about this!

And there is my point...lol

 

[valiant]

To Valant, I see, I am talking to my ELDER : 81yrs. I respect you, and respectively rebuke you. God bless.! BUT what is"godco"? Love Hoffco

you imagining you are God

 

[Hoffco]

This is good conversation,and may achieve a great deal. I am just a spokesman for God,; I am not a (God Co.) Is that what "godco" means? I would never take God's place, I only repeat God's words. to the best of my knowledge, and I AM quite confident, I know what I say is true. Love to God, Hoffco

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It seems very difficult to show you anything. IMO, you talk around other peoples points rather than addressing them.

That makes it very difficult to explain things to you. IMO, you are slightly less teachable than my left shoe; but I will be very happy if you prove me wrong about this!

It's not difficult to explain things if you know the truth. It does get difficult, though, when you try to explain things that you really don't know, but you think you know.