Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL you do keep inventing unscriptural things. Christ is certainly sitting on David's throne (Acts 2.30) in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12.20-22).

Acts 2: 30 does not say He is sitting on Davids throne. Acts 2 says in order for Christ to sit on davids throne he would heve to be resurrected.

Heb 12 says nothing of the throne of David.

Again, Your making David God. Jesus is on his own throne. Not davids.. David did not earn the right to sit at the right hand of the father, Jesus did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would someone please ask herose to stop hijacking and arguing in this thread? He blocked me before and now is taking over the thread. He's had his say. Since I cant ask him to stop I would ask someone reading this to do so for me. Thank you.

there I just quoted it for you..

He rose this is for you

 

[kaylagrl]

there I just quoted it for you..

He rose this is for you

Thank you! lol I doubt he will heed it though.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

uh....I cannot even begin to understand how you come to that conclusion

it's seriously mixed up and most definately wrong

nothing personal

like I said, I do not know where he comes up with tome of his stuff.. Certainly not something which I have ever heard before. and I have studied this for over 30 years now

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.
The new covenant with the house of Israel prophesied

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31​

Jesus makes the new covenant ...

For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28​

... with the house of Israel

Now when the evening was come, he sat down with the twelve. Matthew 26:20​

There was only one problem. That was not a new covenant to the house of Israel.

That was a new covenant with the world, if not. Your or I, (as a gentile) would have no hope. for we would jave no access to the new covenant

Also. In romans 11. Paul spoke of this as a future event.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins"

This did not occure at the last supper. or at the resurrection, or at the ascention. Because paul is telling his readers he does not want them (as gentile Christians) to be ignorant of the mystery of the temporary blindness of Israel
[SUP]
[/SUP]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gee I was gone for a few hours, and expected there to be at least one person to step up to the plate and show me that the disciples weren't the remnant of Israel with whom Jesus made the new covenant, but I don't see it. Maybe I better go back and look.

Is the symbolism of 12 disciples lost on anyone?

sorry I was busy all day. I got ya on that one..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There was only one problem. That was not a new covenant to the house of Israel.

That was a new covenant with the world, if not. Your or I, (as a gentile) would have no hope. for we would jave no access to the new covenant

Also. In romans 11. Paul spoke of this as a future event.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins"

This did not occure at the last supper. or at the resurrection, or at the ascention. Because paul is telling his readers he does not want them (as gentile Christians) to be ignorant of the mystery of the temporary blindness of Israel
[SUP]
[/SUP]

Completely unscriptural. Jeremiah prophesied that GOD would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, Jesus made a new covenant with the remnant of Israel, and yet you say it was a covenant made with the world without having any scriptural witness.

You obviously don't understand how covenants work.

 

[valiant]

Valiant's Quote "The crucifixion of Christ has been the cause of anti-seminism throughout history. Are you suggesting that we remain silent about the crucifixion of Christ?"

Actually thanks to you and herose taking over the thread I hadnt gotten that far yet. Of course you're not going to remain silent about the cross. But if you blame the Jews,the entire Jewish population for killing Christ then yes,I have a problem with that. Jesus disciples were Jews,he had Jewish followers so if you believe every Jew is culpable in Jesus death then yes,that is wrong.

I am not aware that anyone apart from God has blamed 'all Jews' for the crucifixion of Christ. But I seem to remember that God destroyed 'all Jews' in 70 AD. He did not discriminate apart from those who were still part of the true Israel, the election of Israel, whom He saved through prophecy. However, that was that generation, not Jews living since.

We ALL crucified Christ. So how can we blame others?

Jesus said of His life

"

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

True but a different view was taken in Acts 4.25-27

Quote Valiant "

Rubbish. It was to do with their having crucified Christ, although even then it was inexcusable."

Your opinion. History books have been written on the subject. Jules Issac who lost his family in the Holocaust wrote Jesus and Israel, discussing the subject.

Hardly an unbiased witness An understandably bitter man trying to find something to blame.

The Catholic church changed their dealings with Jews based on Issac speaking to the Pope. The Catholic church,along with others,denounced the replacement theology in light of the Holocaust.

well if the Roman Catholic church denounces it, it MUST be right. They are no judge of true doctrine.

Valiant Quote "

Was it not GOD Who said that the unbelieving Jews would be cursed? (although its not our job but His). And they have certainly been cursed since 70 AD during their long period of great tribulation. That has nothing to do with out view of Israel.

Every cult, including yours, thinks it will receive blessings."

You ignore verse after verse to support your theology.

Now that is simply a lie. There is no hiding the fact. In my view you simply ignore the New Testament because of your bias.

God will decide who is in fact part of a cult. I'll err on the side of blessing His chosen people. You do what you do. The Jews have been cursed but also been blessed,but you think it belongs to you. Gods called them the apple of His eye,he made promises He intends to keep.You can think they belong to you all you want,it wont change Gods everlasting promise.

I forgive you because you are a woman. If you thought logically you would realise that you are reading into my views something totally foreign to them. I do not judge the Jews one way or the other. They are in God's hands. I simply teach what God has said about the situation that Jesus Christ the Messiah brought into fruition the true Israel, rejecting the unbelieving.

A megalomaniac cannot be blamed on them . I doubt if he read them"

Your opinion. Hitler put them in ghettos, made them wear a yellow star and set restrictions on them the church had already pronounced years before. He hardly came up with it on his own.

And that's your opinion. None of the men you cited, however bad their behaviour, taught those things. You just make sweeping generalisatons

Valiant Quote "

It was Jesus Christ Who taught that the true Israel would continue on in those who believed in the Messiah, and it was confirmed by Paul and Peter. Sounds pretty good authority to me"

NO that is your theology! And you can put words in Christs mouth all day long and BOLD ALL YOU WANT it doesnt make replacement theology right or any less antisemitic.

LOL how can a theology which makes one claim to be semitic be anti-semitic? Beats me lol But then you are a woman. Logic is not your strong point

Valiant Quote "

I doubt if it was taught very much at all. Show me examples of where the church said it was replacing Israel. That is modern jargon invented to set up straw men."

Already showed you with quotes from the church fathers.Im having a discussion with posters not trying to argue back and forth with you. You have your theology and Im not spending 24 pages saying "I know you are but what am I" with you! We all know what you believe,I'll leave you to it.

None of those quotes mentioned replacement theology (which I don't believe in. The new church WAS the true Israel. It did not replace it. God broke the unbelievers off.

Valiant Quote "

well if they look back to the middle ages they should show more sense. I doubt if there are Jews who reject Christ because of past history, although they may make it an excuse. They reject Him through bigotry."

Though past church history may play a part they reject him because they're blinded until the Gentiles have come in.But God will still hold us responsible for how we treat His chosen people.

WE are His chosen people. God rejected them. However we are responsible for how we treat ALL people.

Valiant Quote "

You seem to revel in the past. Why not come and live in the present.?"

I am in the present thats why I started the thread. The past and the present are connected.Why dont you live in the present and leave behind an old theology that most church have already repented of? If the RCC did,you can to!

Lol I prefer to live in the Apostolic past when the Apostles taught that we are the true Israel (John 15.1-6; Matt 21.43; Rom 11.12-24; Eph 2.11-22; 1 Peter 1.9; Gal 3.29; James 1.1; etc)

Valiant Quote "

What an absurd statement. Whilst I do not accept replacement theology, which is mainly an invention of its enemies, it is absurd to suggest that because I believe that Israel = all true believing Christians I am supporting anything other than that teaching."

I believe that Israel = all true believing Christians...Umm that IS replacement theology!

Of course it is NOT. No one suggests a replacement. The true Israel continued on in the persons of the Apostles and all the Jews who were converted by them. For a number of years only Jews formed the church, and there were a great many of them. They were the true Israel abiding in the true vine. Unbelieving Jews were cast off. So Israel continued on in those who believed in the Messiah. Then God showed them that they had to accept Gentile proselytes as Israel always had done. Those Gentiles then became Israelites. And so the true Israel continued to grow until it is what it is today.

Unbelieving Jews are no longer a part of Israel. Not are unbelieving Gentiles. I do not believe in persecuting any of them. But I do believe that they are under the wrath of God.

Valiant Quote "

. Paul also taught that the true Israel, what he called the Israel of God, was made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Indeed they are the 'all Israel' who will be saved."

Nope you're twisting what he said. Read Romans 11.

I have written a commentary on it, and in order to do that you have to understand it thoroughly, So I think I know it better than you do.

Valiant Quote "

well I think your view is heresy so we are equal"

Well ! Finally something we can agree on! While I disagree 100% with you thanks for answering my post point by point and keeping sarcasm and name calling to a minimum.

My pleasure and no offence intended

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Completely unscriptural. Jeremiah prophesied that GOD would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, Jesus made a new covenant with the remnant of Israel, and yet you say it was a covenant made with the world without having any scriptural witness.

You obviously don't understand how covenants work.

So Paul spoke past tense there? Why did he bother telling gentiles not to be ignorant, that bblindness in part (the remnant still will always be there) Until the time of the gentile is competed. then ALL ISREAL will be saved, Because THEN God will write his ;aw on their hearts.

Not it you you who does not understand covenants.

The covenant to the house of isreal is to the whole house. Not part of the house. You do not make a covenant with the whole house of Israel, when it is not the whole house of Isreal.

The new covenant is to the whole world. Not just a remnant in Israel. There is no jew or greek in that covenant.

You need to study more.

 

[valiant]

So Paul spoke past tense there? Why did he bother telling gentiles not to be ignorant, that bblindness in part (the remnant still will always be there) Until the time of the gentile is competed. then ALL ISREAL will be saved, Because THEN God will write his law on their hearts.

God wrote His law in the hearts of the Jews on the Return from exile. There were great revivals. Paul said that it was only the election of Israel, the Messiah believers, who were beloved for the Fathers' sakes. Nowhere does he actually say that that blindness will be removed except for in a few. The all Israel who will be saved are defined in 11.12-24. They are the election of Israel (believing Jews) and their Gentile proselytes (the fullness of the Gentiles who will come in). Thus your theology is completely wrong.

Not it you you who does not understand covenants.

seems to me you know little about them either

The covenant to the house of isreal is to the whole house. Not part of the house. You do not make a covenant with the whole house of Israel, when it is not the whole house of Isreal.

The whole house of Israel indicated all who became faithful to the covenant. That was always the case. The rest came under judgment. It did not and could not mean everyone who saw himself as an Israelite, even if an idol worshipper or A RENEGADE. By the time of Jesus that definition was limited to those who believed in the Messiah. They formed the true house of Israel.

]

The new covenant is to the whole world. Not just a remnant in Israel.

once again you have it wrong, It was to all who believed in the Messiah.

There is no jew or greek in that covenant.

No for they have all become the true Israel, members of the household of God (Eph 2.11-22; 1Pet 2.9)

You need to study more.

you too lol

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So Paul spoke past tense there? Why did he bother telling gentiles not to be ignorant, that bblindness in part (the remnant still will always be there) Until the time of the gentile is competed. then ALL ISREAL will be saved, Because THEN God will write his ;aw on their hearts.

Not it you you who does not understand covenants.

The covenant to the house of isreal is to the whole house. Not part of the house. You do not make a covenant with the whole house of Israel, when it is not the whole house of Isreal.

The new covenant is to the whole world. Not just a remnant in Israel. There is no jew or greek in that covenant.

You need to study more.

Paul was warning gentile believers against the temptation of thinking that GOD had completely rejected Israel in favor of them. He was simply saying that there will always be a believing remnant until the end.

The new covenant is to all of Israel through the apostles. That's why they are the foundation. Jesus only made the covenant with 11 men, but all Israel can share in the covenant blessings through faith. That's the only way it works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul was warning gentile believers against the temptation of thinking that GOD had completely rejected Israel in favor of them. He was simply saying that there will always be a believing remnant until the end.

No He did not just say this, or he would have stopped, and never said at the end (of an age of gentiles) all Israel will be saved.

You keep leaving parts of scripture out.

He wanted them not to boast. that God did away with Israel and put them in charge, Because at the end of their age, Israel will be restored..

The new covenant is to all of Israel through the apostles. That's why they are the foundation. Jesus only made the covenant with 11 men, but all Israel can share in the covenant blessings through faith. That's the only way it works.

Um, Jesus made the covenant with the whole world. Not just 11 men.

WHOLE house of Israel does not equal REMNANT (partial house) of Israel. and it certainly does not mean just 11 men. It means them all..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No He did not just say this, or he would have stopped, and never said at the end (of an age of gentiles) all Israel will be saved.

You keep leaving parts of scripture out.

He wanted them not to boast. that God did away with Israel and put them in charge, Because at the end of their age, Israel will be restored..

That's only your opinion based on a flawed reading of Romans 11:26, which actually says that all of Israel will be saved by the new covenant removal of their sins. In no way does it say that all Israel will be saved (as you interpret it).

Um, Jesus made the covenant with the whole world. Not just 11 men.

WHOLE house of Israel does not equal REMNANT (partial house) of Israel. and it certainly does not mean just 11 men. It means them all..

This is such an ignorant statement that it's pointless for me to comment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God wrote His law in the hearts of the Jews on the Return from exile. There were great revivals.

Oh there were?
So these great revivals got them to write these books, and add to the word of God?? Looks like all they did was turn into what happen to the church in 300 AD when rome took over and started writing all these books..

Do you study the OT?

The prophets state clearly. when they are restored. they will NEVER disobey him again, They will be in full repentance. and they will continually follow the laws of God. they will never again play the harlot.

Nothing like that happened when they returned from Babylon. In fact, They were first enslaved by Peria, Then Greece, Then rome, until they were destroyed utterly in 70 AD.

You people like to water things down don't you..

Sorry , a few SMALL revivals from a small group of people, do not match prophesy which states the whole nation repents and turns to God. (they did not even all return, many of them remained scattered, The Pharisees got rich of them for years when they had to come to Israel to pay temple tax or on the day of atonement when they had to provide a small sheep (you know. they reason Jesus overturned the tables and went after them with whips because they got rich of poor people in need in the name of God??

Paul said that it was only the election of Israel, the Messiah believers, who were beloved for the Fathers' sakes. Nowhere does he actually say that that blindness will be removed except for in a few. The all Israel who will be saved are defined in 11.12-24. They are the election of Israel (believing Jews) and their Gentile proselytes (the fullness of the Gentiles who will come in). Thus your theology is completely wrong.

Wow. Where did you learn how to read?

The ones who are beloved for the fathers sake, are also hated for the sake of the gospel. for they are enemies of the gospel.

He set no date when Israel's blindness would be removed?? He said they were Blind IN PART UNTIL (the Date) the fullness of the gentiles comes in, They they will ALL be saved (no more partial blindness)
And as for the remnant and believing gentiles. That's not correct either your timing is off.

They (Israel) were cut off, You (gentile) were grafted in. But just as they were cut off, You took if you do not remain, will be cut off also (ever hear of the time of the falling away at the end of the age.. Yes, that is when the church apostates and falls away, it is also prophetically the time of the great tribulation, or time of Jacobs trouble, Where at the end, Israels eyes are opened, they repent, Accept Christ as savior and messiah after they repent, And they get saved. Then they are grafted in.

Oh by the way, That is the mystery paul spoke of..

so again, where did you learn to read?

The whole house of Israel indicated all who became faithful to the covenant. That was always the case. The rest came under judgment. It did not and could not mean everyone who saw himself as an Israelite, even if an idol worshipper or A RENEGADE. By the time of Jesus that definition was limited to those who believed in the Messiah. They formed the true house of Israel.

Whole house equals whole house period. Do you need to go back to math class also? Just asking.

A whole is not a part. it is a whole. 100%, 99.9 percent is just a part. not a whole. Don't you remember that from math class?

once again you have it wrong, It was to all who believed in the Messiah.

No, it is to the whole world. Jesus loved the world. Not just a few people.

No for they have all become the true Israel, members of the household of God (Eph 2.11-22; 1Pet 2.9)

No Jew No Greek, No free or slave, All have become on body in Christ.

How can we be true Israel. when we are not Israel or gentile??

So reading, math and comprehension skills.. If you do not have these, No need in studying, because you will never understand.

of course, I mock, But that's not the problem, I know you can read, write and understand math. Your problem is blindness has made you appear to not understand how to read and do math..

But there is always hope for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's only your opinion based on a flawed reading of Romans 11:26, which actually says that all of Israel will be saved by the new covenant removal of their sins. In no way does it say that all Israel will be saved (as you interpret it).

Blind in part (a remnant, or part of Israel will be saved, the rest will reject God)

Until the time of the gentile is completed

THEN ALL ISREAL will be saved.

It is no my opinion, Or my interpretation, it is what the word of God says.

ALL does not = Part

Part does not = Whole

You all need to learn some math!!

This is such an ignorant statement that it's pointless for me to comment.

And your pride runs so deep. I do not know how anyone disusses anything with you. You mind is closed. all you have left is name calling and cut downs, and silly strawmen arguments.

This alone should cause normal people to discount everything you say.

News flash, If the new covenant is not given to the whole world. (john 3: 176, For God so loved the world. Matt 28, Go into all the world and make disciples)

Then you and I have no hope.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Blind in part (a remnant, or part of Israel will be saved, the rest will reject God)
Until the time of the gentile is completed
THEN ALL ISREAL will be saved.
It is no my opinion, Or my interpretation, it is what the word of God says.
ALL does not = Part
Part does not = Whole
You all need to learn some math!!

There is nothing in Romans 11:26 saying that all Israel will be saved (as you interpret it). It describes the manner of salvation, not the quantity.

And all Israel will be saved in the manner it is written,

"The deliverer will come out of Zion, and the rescuer will turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Isaiah 59:20)​

And

"this is my covenant to them, when I take away their sins" (Isaiah 59:21, 27:9)​

​

In other words, all will be saved in the same manner: by the new covenant removal of their sins, as it is written in Isaiah 59:20-21, 27:9.

News flash, If the new covenant is not given to the whole world. (john 3: 176, For God so loved the world. Matt 28, Go into all the world and make disciples)

Then you and I have no hope.

It's like I said, you don't understand how GOD's covenants work. Anyone can partake of the covenant's blessings through faith, but it was made with 11 men. That is why they are the foundation.

 

[Magenta]

Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a
second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some
to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do you study the OT?

You people like to water things down don't you..

Wow. Where did you learn how to read?

so again, where did you learn to read?

Do you need to go back to math class also? Just asking.

Don't you remember that from math class?

So reading, math and comprehension skills.. If you do not have these, No need in studying, because you will never understand.

of course, I mock, But that's not the problem, I know you can read, write and understand math. Your problem is blindness has made you appear to not understand how to read and do math..

Well I guess it's good that you're an Equal Opportunity Abuser...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is nothing in Romans 11:26 saying that all Israel will be saved (as you interpret it). It describes the manner of salvation, not the quantity.

And all Israel will be saved in the manner it is written,

"The deliverer will come out of Zion, and the rescuer will turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Isaiah 59:20)​

And

"this is my covenant to them, when I take away their sins" (Isaiah 59:21, 27:9)​

​

In other words, all will be saved in the same manner: by the new covenant removal of their sins, as it is written in Isaiah 59:20-21, 27:9.

I am dumbfounded.. I do not know what more could convince, you. I fear there is no hope.

Paul is speaking in future tense. Not past.. He will make a covenant with the whole house of Israel (not part) and they will no longer be blind in part. but ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.

It gets no clearer than this.. unless you have no desire to see

It's like I said, you don't understand how GOD's covenants work. Anyone can partake of the covenant's blessings through faith, but it was made with 11 men. That is why they are the foundation.

It was made with the world.. OR YOU CAN NOT BE SAVED,

God made a covenant with Israel (a nation) he gave it to moses, but it was given to the whole nation. Not just one person.

There is no discussing with you. You have a doctrine all your own.. No one else I have ever heard (and Again, I have studied this for 30 years. and read books and listened to sermons from people who represent every major interpretation of these events, and none of them have said the things you say.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
You're believing fairy tales. Your mind has been deceived.

I am dumbfounded.. I do not know what more could convince, you. I fear there is no hope.

Paul is speaking in future tense. Not past.. He will make a covenant with the whole house of Israel (not part) and they will no longer be blind in part. but ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED.

It gets no clearer than this.. unless you have no desire to see




It was made with the world.. OR YOU CAN NOT BE SAVED,

God made a covenant with Israel (a nation) he gave it to moses, but it was given to the whole nation. Not just one person.

There is no discussing with you. You have a doctrine all your own.. No one else I have ever heard (and Again, I have studied this for 30 years. and read books and listened to sermons from people who represent every major interpretation of these events, and none of them have said the things you say.