Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

To those enlightened by God it is perfectly plain. You simply close your eyes towards what is not convenient. Verse 30 is referring back to verse 27 (the resurrection of the Holy One) and Peter is pointing out that those words were spoken of the One Whom God would set upon David's throne. He then goes on to explain how He was set on David's throne. He was raised and then was made both LORD and Messiah (Davidic king). If He was made Messiah He was set on David's throne. And it happened at the resurrection.

Heb 12 says nothing of the throne of David.

Click to expand...

No, it declares that God's Jerusalem is now in Heaven.

Again, Your making David God.

Click to expand...

How sad your supposed thinking is.

Jesus is on his own throne. Not davids.

Click to expand...

If He is there as Messiah then He is set on David's throne, for the Messiah is the last Davidic king. As LORD He is set on His Father's throne. As the risen One He is set on His own throne. In fact He is not sat on any throne. Nor is the Father. These are earthly pictures conveying heavenly realities and theological truths. They are omnipresent.

. David did not earn the right to sit at the right hand of the father, Jesus did.

Click to expand...

It is so touching to see this concern about sitting on thrones. Do you know what 'David's throne' means? It means to be the true descendant of David with the right to rule. That was what the Messiah would be. If Jesus did not 'sit on David's throne' then He was NOT the Messiah.

At the same time He sat on the Father's throne, and He sat on His own throne. No problem really. As LORD He sat on His Father's throne'. As risen Messiah He sat on His own throne AND on the throne of David. So He is astride three thrones. In other words, He has equal authority with the Father, and He is reigning from Heaven as LORD and Messiah.

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

crossnote said:

There is no thought of a millennium in the Gospels, in Paul, in Peter or in James. Nor is there in John if you correctly interpret Rev 20.

They were all amillennialists. They all saw God's purposes as coming to fulfilment at the end of this age.

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Im not so sure Im glad I started it! lol But it certainly has started discussion!

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

crossnote said:

I very much appreciate your contribution. I hope you continue to drop in and add your view.

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

The use of Israel in the NT....

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 2:6
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Quotation of Micah 5:2 which prophesies that the Messiah “shall be shepherd of my people Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 2:20
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Geographical reference concerning the family’s return to “the land of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 8:10
and Luke 7:9
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Jesus contrasts the faith of the Roman Centurion with that of unbelieving Israel: “I have not found so great faith, no, not inIsrael.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 9:33
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The response of the multitudes to the miracles of Jesus, “It was never so seen in Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 10:6
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The disciples are instructed not to go among the Gentiles and
Samaritans but to go only “to the lost sheep of the house of
Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 10:23
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Geographical notation of the work of the disciples in “the cities of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 15:24
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Christ’s ministry was “unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 15:31
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The multitudes “glorified the God of Israel” when they saw the miracles of Jesus.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 19:28
and Luke 22:30
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The disciples are promised authority over “the twelve tribes of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 27:9
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Quotation of Zechariah 11:12-13 which prophesied that the Messiah will be sold out for thirty pieces of silver by “the children of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Matthew 27:42
and Mark 15:32
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Jesus is mocked as “the king of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Mark 12:29
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Quotation of Deuteronomy 6:4: “Hear O Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 1:16
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The ministry of John was to get “many of the children of Israel” to turn to the Lord.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 1:54
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]God has provided the Messiah to give help “to Israel his servant.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 1:68
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to God as “the God of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 1:80
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]John was in the deserts until “the day of his showing unto Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 2:25
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Simeon was looking for the Messianic Hope as “the consolation of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 2:32
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]While the Messiah was to he a light for revelation to the
Gentiles,” He is also to be for “the glory of thy people Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 2:34
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The Messiah is appointed to be “for the falling and rising of many in Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 4:25
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to the “widows in Israel” in the days of Elijah.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 4:27
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to the “lepers in Israel” in the days of Elijah.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Luke 24:21
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The two Emmaus disciples describe Jesus as the one they hoped would “redeem Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

To be continued in next post...

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

kaylagrl said:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]John 1:31
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The Messiah was to “be made manifest to Israel” through John’s baptism.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]John 1:49
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Nathanael described Jesus as the “King of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]John 3:10
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Jesus refers to Nicodemus as “the teacher of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]John 12:13
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The multitudes at the triumphal entry describe Jesus as “the King of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 1:6
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The disciples ask, “Lord, dost thou at this time restore the
kingdom to Israel?” Obviously, the disciples had ethnic Israel and not the Church in mind in this context.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 2:22
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Peter is addressing an unbelieving Jewish audience and states, “Ye men of Israel.” Contextually, this could hardly be the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 2:36
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]This is the same audience as the above reference.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 3:12
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Peter is again addressing an unbelieving Jewish audience with the words, “Ye men of Israel.” As unbelievers, they could hardly be the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 4:10
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Peter clearly has the whole ethnic Israel in view when he declares to “all the people of Israel” that the lame man was healed “in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 4:27
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Israel is listed along with the Gentiles as being guilty of the crucifixion. This could hardly be the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 5:21
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to “the senate of the children of Israel” Who were unbelievers and, therefore, not the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 5:31
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Peter offers “repentance to Israel.” Israel is in unbelief at this point and so is obviously not the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 5:35
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Gamaliel addressing his fellow members of the Sanhedrin states, “Ye men of Israel,” none of whom were believers.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 7:23
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Stephen is making an historical reference to “the children of Israel” of the time of Moses.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 7:37
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 7:42
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 9:15
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]God declares that Paul will proclaim the gospel to Gentiles and to “the children of Israel.” This is a reference to Jews who do not believe as yet.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 10:36
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Peter refers to the now historical fact that Jesus came to preach the gospel “unto the children of Israel,” the majority of whom did not believe the message and so did not constitute the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 13:16
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul is addressing an unbelieving Jewish audience when he states, “men of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 13:17
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to the historical “this people Israel” of the time of the Exodus.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 13:23
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul mentions the historical fact that the Messiah had come to the Jews in fulfillment of the “promise brought unto Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 13:24
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to the historical fact that John the Baptist preached “repentance to all the people of Israel.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 21:28
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The “men of Israel” in this verse is the mob who attacked Paul.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Acts 28:20
[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul declares that he is chained for “the hope of Israel,” a reference to the Messianic Hope and not the Church.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

Continuing.....
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:4[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul lists the privileges God gave the “Israelites” already discussed.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:6[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul draws a contrast of two Israels: Israel the whole, and believing Israel within Israel the whole. Both Israels comprise Jews only. While some Covenant Theologians wish to make the believing Israel the Church, other Covenant Theologians agree that this verse contrasts Jews who believe and Jews who do not.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:27[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Another contrast between unbelieving Israel and the believing remnant.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:31[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to unbelieving Israel who “did not arrive at that law.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 10:19[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul declares that Israel received the message, but did not accept
it.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 10:21[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]God’s hands are stretched out to unbelieving Israel still.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:1[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to himself as an “Israelite” nationally and ethnically.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:2[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul makes an historical reference to the fact that “Elijah pleaded with God against Israel” because of Israel’s unbelief.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:7[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul again draws a contrast between Israel the whole that failed to obtain what she was seeking for with the remnant, “the election,” that did.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:25[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul speaks of the blindness that had befallen Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:26[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The prophecy that all Israel will be saved. Covenant Theologians are split on the meaning of this verse. Generally speaking, Covenant Amillennialists see this as a reference to the Church, while Covenant Postmillennialists and Covenant Premillennialists see it as a reference to national ethnic Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]1 Cor. 10:18[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The “Israel after the flesh” is obviously national ethnic Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 3:7[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to “the children of Israel” at the time of Moses.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 3:13[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 11:22[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to both unbelieving Jews and to himself as “Israelites.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Galatians 6:16[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul’s reference to the “Israel of God” is the only reference used by all Covenant Theologians to prove that the Church is called Israel. This verse will be discussed in detail below[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Ephesians 2:12[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The “commonwealth of Israel” is contrasted with the Gentiles and with the “one new man” which is the Church.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Philippians 3:5[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to himself us coming from “the stock of Israel,” an obvious reference to his national ethnic origins.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Hebrews 8:8,10[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A quotation of’ the New Covenant of Jeremiah.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Hebrews 11:22[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to the Israel of the Exodus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Revelation 7:4[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to the twelve tribes of Israel[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Revelation 21:12[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament

passing_through · Oct 30, 2015

The Millenium hasn't begun yet, Christ will one day in the future sit on David's Throne, figuratively speaking, it just means that Christ will be the King of Israel in the eyes of the Jews.

There are many here that profess knowledge, but they process none. There doctrine is from their on mind that the imagine stuff up. Like the Davidic Covenant was fulfilled in Jesus.

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

Gr8grace said:

It is incorrect to say that apantesis means 'meet and return'. It occurs regularly in LXX with the simple meaning of meeting, for example, in battle. See 1 Sam 4.1 and often.

kaylagrl · Oct 30, 2015

Apparently there is a limit on characters so the posts had to be broken up.To continue....

The above list is the total times that “Israel” is mentioned in the New Testament and it is obvious even to Covenant Theologians that the vast majority of the times it refers to national ethnic Israel. In fact, only three passages are used by Covenant Theologians to try to prove their Church-equals-Israel equation. On two of these, Romans 9:6 and 11:26, they are not unanimous, for even some Covenant Theologians see these verses as speaking of national ethnic Israel. The only one verse on which all Covenant Theologians are unanimous is Galatians 6:16. This is the one and only verse that even comes close to saying what Covenant Theologians want it to say.

In verse 15 Paul states that the important thing for salvation is faith, resulting in the new man. He then pronounces a blessing on two groups who would follow this rule of salvation through faith alone. The first group is the “them,” the Gentile Christians to and of whom he had devoted most of the epistle. The second group is the “Israel of God.” These are Jewish believers who, in contrast with the Judaizers, followed the rule of salvation by faith alone.

Dr.Lewis Johnson....

In spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains persistent support for the contention that the term Israel may refer properly to Gentile believers in the present age . . . .the primary support is found in Galatians 6:16 . . . I cannot help but think that dogmatic considerations loom large in the interpretation of Galatians 6:16. The tenacity with which this application of “the Israel of God” to the church is held in spite of a mass of evidence to the contrary leads one to think that the supporters of the view believe their eschatological system, usually an amillennial scheme, hangs on the reference of the term to the people of God, composed of both believing Jews and Gentiles. Amillennialism does not hang on this interpretation, but the view does appear to have a treasured place in amillennial exegesis. In speaking of the view that the term refers to ethnic Israel, a sense that the term Israel has in every other of its more than sixty-five uses in the New Testament and in its fifteen uses in Paul, in tones almost emotional William Hendriksen, the respected Reformed commentator, writes, “I refuse to accept that explanation.” . . .

For those who would cite Romans 9:6 as evidence, Johnson shows that this verse is no support for such a view for the distinction is between Jews who believe and Jews who do not: Paul is here speaking only of a division within ethnic Israel. Some of them are believers and thus truly Israel, whereas others, though ethnically Israelites, are not truly Israel, since they are not elect and believing . . . No Gentiles are found in the statement at all.

Even many Covenant Theologians have agreed with this view of Romans 9:6 and do not use it to support their view of Galatians 6:16. As for context, Johnson observes: On the contrary, the apostle is concerned with correcting the gospel preached to the Galatians by the Judaizers, particularly their false contention that it was necessary to be circumcised to be saved and to observe as Christians certain requirements of the law of Moses in order to remain in divine favor . . . The apostle makes no attempt whatsoever to deny that there is a legitimate distinction of race between Gentile and Jewish believers in the church . . . . There is a remnant of Jewish believers in the church according to the election of grace . . . . This approach fails to see that Paul does not say there is neither Jew nor Greek within the church. He speaks of those who are “in Christ.”

. . there is no historical evidence that the term Israel was identified with the church before A.D. 160. Further, at that date there was no characterization of the church as “the Israel of God.” In other words, for more than a century after Paul there was no evidence of the identification

The second of the important interpretations of Galatians 6:16 and “the Israel of God” is the view that the words refer simply to believing ethnic Israelites in the Christian church. Does not Paul speak of himself as an Israelite (cf. Rom. 11:1)? And does not the apostle also speak of “a remnant according to God’s gracious choice” (cf. Rom. 11:5), words that plainly in the context refer to believing Israelites? What more fitting thing could Paul write, it is said, in a work so strongly attacking Jewish professing believers, the Judaizers, than to make it most plain that he was not attacking the true believing Jews? Judaizers are anathematized, but the remnant according to the election of grace are “the Israel of God.” . . .

Exegetically the view us sound, since “Israel” has its uniform Pauline ethnic sense. And further, the apostle achieves a very striking climactic conclusion. Drawing near the end of his “battle-epistle” with its harsh and forceful attack on the Judaists and its omission of the customary words of thanksgiving, Paul tempers his language with a special blessing for those faithful believing Israelites who, understanding the grace of God and its exclusion of any human works as the ground of redemption, had not succumbed to the subtle blandishments of the deceptive Judaizers. They, not the false men from Jerusalem, are “the Israel of God,” or, as he calls them elsewhere, “the remnant according to the election of grace”

And theologically the view is sound in its maintenance of the two elements within the one people of God, Gentiles and ethnic Jews. Romans 11 spells out the details of the relationship between the two entities from Abraham’s day to the present age and on to the fulfillment in the future of the great unconditional covenantal promises made to the patriarchs

If there is an interpretation that totters on a tenuous foundation, it is the view that Paul equates the term “the Israel of God” with the believing church of Jews and Gentiles. To support it, the general usage of the term Israel is Paul, in the New Testament, and in the Scriptures as a whole is ignored.

Bible Scholar FF Bruce...But the reference to the Israel of God need not be an afterthought. [Paul] would have been familiar with a prayer which asks God for "peace...and mercy on us and on all Israel thy people. If so, the words "and on the Israel of God" would have come readily from his tongue...Paul held good hope of the ultimate blessing of Israel...the fact that some Israelites were doing so [receiving Christ as Saviour] was in his eyes a pledge that this remnant would increase until, with the ingathering of the full [compliment] of Gentiles, "all Israel will be saved." This invocation of blessing on the Israel of God has probably an eschatological perspective"

For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

Abraham is the father of all who believe (Romans 4:11,16). He is the perfect person to fill this role because he was both a Gentile and a Jew. He put his faith in the Lord (Gen. 15:6) long before he was circumcised (Romans 4:10), and Gentiles need to believe God as he did. He was the father of the Jewish people (along with Isaac and Jacob) and the sign of circumcision began with him. The Jewish people need to believe God as he did and imitate father Abraham's faith. So Abraham is the father of all who believe, both Gentiles and Jews.

"[Paul] is not teaching that Gentiles become 'spiritual Jews.' Rather, those who follow the pattern of Abraham and exercise faith are the true children of Abraham. By calling all believers the sons of Abraham, he does not call all believers 'spiritual Jews.' Jewishness is not determined by Abraham alone, but by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is interesting that Gentile believers are never referred to as 'the sons of Jacob,' only as the sons of Abraham. So by calling Gentile believers the sons of Abraham, Paul doe snot mean they are spiritual Jews, but rather they follow Abraham's pattern in that they go on the basis of faith, not on the basis of works. Those who are the sons of Abraham are not spiritual Jews, but simply followers of Abraham's pattern, because that is what the phrase 'sons of' generally means in Hebrew; that is, 'a follower of.' Spiritual Jews are Jews who happen to believe and exercise faith. Gentiles who believe and exercise faith are spiritual Gentiles and are the spiritual seed of Abraham, but that doe snot make them spiritual Jews" [Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Faith Alone--The Condition of Our Salvation--An Exposition of the Book of Galatians and Other Relevant Topics].

Believing Jews are actually imitating Abraham's great act of faith performed when he was a Gentile (Genesis 15:6).

From...The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

passing_through said:

That is your view. But the thousand years in Rev covered the binding of Satan and his release, and his release occurred in rev 9.11. So it all clearly occurred prior to Christ's second coming

The Davidic covenant pointed forward to Jesus. That is made clear in Luke 1-3. He came as king and rode into Jerusalem on an ass in order to demonstrate the fact. When they crucified Him He rose again and took His Messianic throne (Acts 2.36). Seems like the fulfilment of the Davidic covenant to me

passing_through · Oct 30, 2015

valiant said:

That is your view. But the thousand years in Rev covered the binding of Satan and his release, and his release occurred in rev 9.11. So it all clearly occurred prior to Christ's second coming

The Davidic covenant pointed forward to Jesus. That is made clear in Luke 1-3. He came as king and rode into Jerusalem on an ass in order to demonstrate the fact. When they crucified Him He rose again and took His Messianic throne (Acts 2.36). Seems like the fulfilment of the Davidic covenant to me

You are deceived, I can't help hard headedness and stupidity.

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

kaylagrl said:

Continuing.....
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:4[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul lists the privileges God gave the “Israelites” already discussed.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:6[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul draws a contrast of two Israels: Israel the whole, and believing Israel within Israel the whole. Both Israels comprise Jews only. While some Covenant Theologians wish to make the believing Israel the Church, other Covenant Theologians agree that this verse contrasts Jews who believe and Jews who do not.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:27[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Another contrast between unbelieving Israel and the believing remnant.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 9:31[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to unbelieving Israel who “did not arrive at that law.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 10:19[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul declares that Israel received the message, but did not accept
it.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 10:21[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]God’s hands are stretched out to unbelieving Israel still.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:1[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to himself as an “Israelite” nationally and ethnically.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:2[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul makes an historical reference to the fact that “Elijah pleaded with God against Israel” because of Israel’s unbelief.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:7[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul again draws a contrast between Israel the whole that failed to obtain what she was seeking for with the remnant, “the election,” that did.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:25[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul speaks of the blindness that had befallen Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Romans 11:26[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The prophecy that all Israel will be saved. Covenant Theologians are split on the meaning of this verse. Generally speaking, Covenant Amillennialists see this as a reference to the Church, while Covenant Postmillennialists and Covenant Premillennialists see it as a reference to national ethnic Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]1 Cor. 10:18[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The “Israel after the flesh” is obviously national ethnic Israel.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 3:7[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to “the children of Israel” at the time of Moses.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 3:13[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]2 Cor. 11:22[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to both unbelieving Jews and to himself as “Israelites.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Galatians 6:16[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul’s reference to the “Israel of God” is the only reference used by all Covenant Theologians to prove that the Church is called Israel. This verse will be discussed in detail below[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Ephesians 2:12[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]The “commonwealth of Israel” is contrasted with the Gentiles and with the “one new man” which is the Church.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Philippians 3:5[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Paul refers to himself us coming from “the stock of Israel,” an obvious reference to his national ethnic origins.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Hebrews 8:8,10[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A quotation of’ the New Covenant of Jeremiah.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Hebrews 11:22[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]An historical reference to the Israel of the Exodus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Revelation 7:4[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]A reference to the twelve tribes of Israel[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: table1column1, width: 28%, bgcolor: #CCFFFF"]Revelation 21:12[/TD]
[TD="class: table1column2, width: 72%, bgcolor: #FFFF99"]Same as above[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament

What you all fail to take into account is that Israel was constantly being expanded, as it had been from the beginning, by the inclusion of Gentile converts. Thus Rom 11.12-24 demonstrates this increase in the true Israel by the admission of Gentile converts. They BECAME Israelites (Eph 2.11-22). Thus all who truly become a part of the church of Jesus Christ become true Israelites in the same way as the mixed multitude did at Sinai and Gilgal, and proselytes did ever since. Any reference to Israel therefore INCLUDES them.

Meanwhile unbelieving Jews were cut off from Israel. That is why the fullness of the Gentiles (the total number of Gentiles chosen to be part of Israel) had to 'come in' before all Israel (which included them) could be saved.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 30, 2015

passing_through said:

Perhaps you can help us understand how Christ is not sitting on the throne that GOD promised David his seed would rule from forever.

passing_through · Oct 30, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

If Christ was on Earth don't you think that the world media would be covering it. No, Christ don't reign until after the seven years of the Millenium. You people make me nauseous, I am so tired of this professed knowledge.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Oct 30, 2015

passing_through said:

That's called begging the question. It's not a good way to make a convincing argument.

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

kaylagrl said:

Leave out the references in the Gospels where the church could not be in mind and the picture changes considerably.

You are wrong but I really do not care what covenant theologians teach. It is what the word of God teaches that matters. Over here in the UK we do no try to put everyone in a straitjacket.

who cares?

The whole point of Paul's dissertation in Romans 9-11 is to demonstrate that the true Israel is the election of Israel, and that Gentiles who believe in the Messiah are then grafted into that election of Israel.

Sorry but you are making a false case. Not only does Romans 9-11 make quite clear that believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel, but so does Ephesians 2.11-22 and 1 Peter 2.9. The argument in Ephesians 2 is that the Gentiles WERE strangers to the covenant of Israel but have now been made a part of it. They are no longer 'strangers and sojourners' (non-Israelites living among the Israelites) but fellow-citizens with the saints (true Israelites) and of the household of God'. They are now part of the true Israel. It could not be clearer.

Indeed this is further proved in that all have been made one in Jesus Christ Who is the true vine (the true Israel).
In Him there is neither Jew nor Greek, they are ALL Israel in Him.

1 Peter 2.9 confirms this situation. I do not think that anyone will deny that it is based on Exod 19.5--6, which was the definition of Israel. So Peter declares that all Christians are part of the holy nation, the elect race, the people for God's own possession. They are a peculiar treasure to Him from among all nations, a royal priesthood and a holy nation (Exod 19.6). They are now the true Israel.

That is why James as bishop in Jerusalem writes a circular letter to all Christians addressing them as 'the twelve tribes of Israel' (James 1.1). Had he been writing only to Jewish Christians he would have had to make some reference to Jewish-Gentile relationships in such an ethical letter.

'If you are Christ's then are you Abraham's SEED (how? by being in Christ Who is perfect Israel) and heirs according to the promise'. In other words you are made one with the chosen people.

Someone has been misleading you.

I'm sorry but Lewis Johnson is WRONG. Gal 6.15 says that circumcision and uncircumcision are now nothing, and that what matters is the new creation (the true Israel). How could Paul say that (and that there is neither Jew nor Greek) and then immediately divide the church into circumcised and uncircumcised? It would be nonsense. He would be saying 'you are all one with the distinction between Jew and Greek abolished but you are still divided up into Gentiles and Israel'. That would be nonsense. It only makes sense if he means that the Israel of God INCLUDES ALL.

I am not interested in dogmatic considerations. The meaning is crystal clear.

There is NO evidence to the contrary in the context, the difference between Jew and Gentile is ABOLISHED/

This is all nonsense. Typical false argument. The church is constantly shown as part of the true Israel as I have shown.

I can agree with him on this. It is the opening statement to demonstrate an election of Israel which will the be augmented by Gentile proselytes.

He makes every attempt to do so. His only references to Jews in Rom 9-11 are outside the church. In the church are the branches of the olive tree (Jr 11.16), both former Jew and former Gentile, now made one in the true Israel.

. .

But the church are members of His body so the distinction is invalid. Paul never in Rom 9-11 suggests that there are both Jews and Gentiles in the church. His whole argument is that they are made one AS ISRAEL.

yes we have such huge masses of material for this period dealing with the subject. In other words NONE. But it is clear in the New Testament.

There was also NO EVIDENCE against that interpretation

In a letter where he has denied a distinction between Jew and Greek and between circumcision and uncircumcision.? If you can believe that you can believe anything. To make the Israel of God mean Jews is to contradict Paul's whole position

References in Romans are irrelevant to the Galatians question. In Romans the references are leading UP to the inclusion of believing Gentiles in Israel.

How can it be fitting when it DENIES ALL HE HAS PREVIOUSLY SAID?

Whether it is uniform is very much open to question. But it is certainly NOT exegetically sound. It is exegetically unsound.

You mean a very contradictory conclusion? That would certainly be striking.

Now he is just using words to convince himself. It is utterly contradictory. What Paul is doing is contrast the believers, whether circumcised or uncircumcised, with those who require circumcision. The believers are 'neither Jew nor Greek', they are the Israel of God, the new creation (Eph 2.11-22). The circumcision are the old Israel.

That is to misunderstand Rom 9-11. The fulfilment in the future is that both Israel and Gentile proselytes are ONE true Israel. But it has nothing to do with Gal 6.16.

But this so-called 'general use of Israel' has not been proven.. The tottering foundation is to have a letter where the distinction between Jews and Gentiles is removed, and then to reintroduce it at the end.

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

passing_through said:

Goodbye

Don't be sick til you get outside

valiant · Oct 30, 2015

before we become dogmatic about the meaning of Israel we should note that in Rom 9-11 Israel has at least three meanings, and some of us would say four.

It can mean the whole of natural Israel (which includes Gentile converts) - 9.6. It can mean unbelieving Israel (10.21). It can mean the election of Israel (9.6). And 11.12-24 suggests it can mean the election of Israel plus believing Gentiles.

This is confirmed in 1 Cor 10.18 which speaks of 'Israel after the flesh'. This suggests that there is an Israel after the spirit.

Ephesians 2.12-22 clearly indicates that believing Gentiles have become members of the commonwealth of Israel

Galatians 6.16 naturally signifies the new creation (the church) without distinction of Jew or Gentile (a theme of Galatians.

Whilst Peter does not mention Israel in 2.9 he does make clear that the holy nation is now the church.

Those who contrast Israel with the church are ignoring Scripture.

Angela53510 · Oct 30, 2015

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

That's a good question! I wonder if my seminary would have it? Trouble is, it is 7 hours away from me, and I think my card has expired. The local library seems short on everything, and I doubt the local university would have it, since it is mostly for engineers, teachers and social workers. I am sure the big university back in Edmonton would have it, but again, no library card, unless my daughter's is still valid. They have many theological libraries. I'm going to have to dig a bit.

The only problem with borrowing, is that I am a great underliner, write in the margins and back of the book, kind of person. I won't even buy theological books on Kindle anymore. I did once for a book, and underlined and made notes, and it was so hard to access the notes.

But definitely something to pursue when I am feeling a bit better. I hope!

Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

Senior Member

Senior Member

kaylagrl

Guest

kaylagrl

Guest

kaylagrl

Guest

kaylagrl

Guest

kaylagrl

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

kaylagrl

Guest

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member