LORDSHIP SALVATION

[ember]

Haven't noticed this topic around these here parts yet and someone brought it up in another thread

shall we have a go then?

Lordship Salvation is:

 

[passing_through]

...a false doctrine.

 

[Gr8grace]

...a false doctrine.

Agreed. "If Jesus is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all."

They take faith and put merit in our faith rather than putting the merit in grace and Christ alone. "working faith" rather than "working Grace"

It IS the deception and the Apostasy of todays church buildings. It is so close to the truth, that it deceives those who do not study His mind.

 

[PeterJens]

I have never heard this phrase before.
What I am familiar with is the traditional faith, bible believing christians who wish to share the word and preach and the charismatics who wish to experience the emotional praise and gifts but not the hard intellectual issues.

All I can go on is my own personal experience. Without meeting emotional needs in your life, healing hurts and setting you straight in purity and righteousness, I do not see how you could ever have a right perspective.

To assume becoming a christian is anything more than the first step, or somehow it all magically happens without effort is simply to deny Jesus and the cross. These phrase imply obligation, not legalism :-

And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27


Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38


But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
Luke 20:35-36

I am unworthy to be called a friend, but He does, I am unworthy to be allowed in the Kingdom, but He has forgiven me because I have believed in Him and the cross. If these realisations have meaning, literally, they will show themselves over time. If it is just joining a club, buying a ticket, viewing from the gallery, then it is meaningless.

 

[Willie-T]

I dunno. I have a lot of difficulty with people taking up arms against the various little labeled groups that they locate. Usually, the only information the naysayers have is derived from negative articles they have dug up from either disgruntled "ex" members (and Lord only knows THEIR motives), or from some sort of Legalistic witch hunters.

I like to get my information from the horse's mouth, and I have yet to read much about these folks.

As it is said: It is much easier to automatically "knee-jerk", and jump on the bandwagon of being "against" something than it is to spend the time to understand who they really are.

 

[Gr8grace]

I have never heard this phrase before.
What I am familiar with is the traditional faith, bible believing christians who wish to share the word and preach and the charismatics who wish to experience the emotional praise and gifts but not the hard intellectual issues.

All I can go on is my own personal experience. Without meeting emotional needs in your life, healing hurts and setting you straight in purity and righteousness, I do not see how you could ever have a right perspective.

To assume becoming a christian is anything more than the first step, or somehow it all magically happens without effort is simply to deny Jesus and the cross. These phrase imply obligation, not legalism :-

And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27


Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38


But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
Luke 20:35-36

I am unworthy to be called a friend, but He does, I am unworthy to be allowed in the Kingdom, but He has forgiven me because I have believed in Him and the cross. If these realisations have meaning, literally, they will show themselves over time. If it is just joining a club, buying a ticket, viewing from the gallery, then it is meaningless.

I would call this a form of Lordship salvation. Sorry.

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for ones salvation is the ONLY step that needs to be taken to be a Christian.

After belief, we can have an adjective added to the position........baby Christian or adolescent Christian or mature Christian. We can pick up the cross and Grow as Christians or we can sit on our butts and remain a babe. Its our choice. But no matter what we choose after salvation.............we are a Christian.

 

[Angela53510]

I would like a clear definition of what this is. I attended a church quite a while back, and two new women joined the church. They seemed to enjoy the preaching and fellowship. One told me she was very pleased with the doctrine of the church.

Suddenly they disappeared. I asked our pastor and apparently a boyfriend of one of the women came one Sunday, and made the two women leave our church because our pastor was NOT teaching Lordship Salvation. The pastor said that meant, according to this man, we were not saved at all!

Now maybe that is distorted, or misunderstood, but if someone could explain what the term means, and what it practically implies for the church I would be delighted to know.

Please don't tell me to google it. I tried and got a bit bogged down. And if anyone actually believes in this doctrine, I would like to hear from them. Thanks in advance.

 

[crossnote]

Basically it was a teaching that was against those that claimed "when I got saved, Jesus was my Savior not necessarily my Lord". Either way it is a strawman argument, because Jesus comes as awhole, ...when He saves He saves as Lord and Savior, you can't cut Him in half. Some only want Him as Savior, not as Lord...a pipe dream.

 

[crossnote]

I would like a clear definition of what this is. I attended a church quite a while back, and two new women joined the church. They seemed to enjoy the preaching and fellowship. One told me she was very pleased with the doctrine of the church.

Suddenly they disappeared. I asked our pastor and apparently a boyfriend of one of the women came one Sunday, and made the two women leave our church because our pastor was NOT teaching Lordship Salvation. The pastor said that meant, according to this man, we were not saved at all!

Now maybe that is distorted, or misunderstood, but if someone could explain what the term means, and what it practically implies for the church I would be delighted to know.

Please don't tell me to google it. I tried and got a bit bogged down. And if anyone actually believes in this doctrine, I would like to hear from them. Thanks in advance.

John MacArthur coined the phrase and was the main proponent. Get it from the horses mouth.

 

[breno785au]

I heard someone say (probably on CC because that's where I've heard all of these ism's and such) that for most Christians, Jesus is their Saviour and not their Lord..kinda confuses me.

 

[PeterJens]

I would call this a form of Lordship salvation. Sorry.

And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27

This response to quoting scripture and saying walking after Jesus will show a difference is your life is Lordship salvation, I can understand why some would take the phrase.

There is a phrase used by christians in Latin america, skin deep christians. It was to differentiate people who followed Jesus for appearance, and those for whom it caused total heart transformation. This will always be the case, because that is the nature of the kingdom. Being with the light is a good place, the next best place to having the light.

I know a few people who have lived their lives like this, they like the morality but have never understood the walk. At the funeral of one man, I told his brother that he definately held no faith or belief, and to a large degree despised christianity though they liked some of the people. He gave me an odd look, because in his heart he hoped God would look kindly on his brother, even though he also knew what I was saying was true.

If you lived among sinners and their hedonistic lives, a lot of this talk would disappear, because when they repent and walk in faith, their lives change because they are such a mess and they know it. I have found it is church people who find it hardest to accept the basic concepts about what a sinful life is actually like, and do not see how nit picky they actually are.

 

[crossnote]

I heard someone say (probably on CC because that's where I've heard all of these ism's and such) that for most Christians, Jesus is their Saviour and not their Lord..kinda confuses me.

Experientally, or better subjectively people may THINK they are receiving Him only as Savior, but if they are truly born again He objectively regenerates and abides in them both as Savior and Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

I heard someone say (probably on CC because that's where I've heard all of these ism's and such) that for most Christians, Jesus is their Saviour and not their Lord..kinda confuses me.

This is a kind of judgementalism. What they mean is people will come to church and do the christian stuff but not much more.
What they do not understand is most know they want something more but do not know how or what the next steps are.

Often also people from the outside have no understanding of the debilitating situations people find themselves in, and what they give may very well be the best they can offer, but is easily dismissed as unimportant, like the widows offering who gave everything, while the rich man gave a great quantity of money but with much pomp and attention to seem important.

 

[Kefa54]

Lordship Salvation is: Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith = works.
If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions.
A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness.
Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).
All works come from the Holly Spirit. We can't do it in our own strength.

Kefa

 

[crossnote]

John MacArthur coined the phrase and was the main proponent. Get it from the horses mouth.

Here you go...

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

 

[Kefa54]

I have heard people say...If a person does so and so I would question their salvation. That is dangerous..Some folks start out their salvation from a very low place and need time to mature.

Kefa

This is a kind of judgementalism. What they mean is people will come to church and do the christian stuff but not much more.
What they do not understand is most know they want something more but do not know how or what the next steps are.

Often also people from the outside have no understanding of the debilitating situations people find themselves in, and what they give may very well be the best they can offer, but is easily dismissed as unimportant, like the widows offering who gave everything, while the rich man gave a great quantity of money but with much pomp and attention to seem important.

 

[crossnote]

The danger of it is that it could leave one forever wondering about their state of salvation due to the fact they'll be wondering if they 'made Him' Lord enough.

 

[james57]

I heard someone say (probably on CC because that's where I've heard all of these ism's and such) that for most Christians, Jesus is their Saviour and not their Lord..kinda confuses me.

Do you think some might want a saviour from their sin, but do not want Jesus to in reality be lord of their life? In other words, they are not prepared to yield their lives to Christ, there is much they insist on clinging to they would let go if Jesus was truly lord of their life
I have been in that place, so I don't find I hard to accept that statement

 

[Kefa54]

Here are nine teachings that set lordship salvation apart from easy-believism:

1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).

2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).

3) The object of faith is Christ Himself, not a promise, a prayer, or a creed (John 3:16). Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master. The Lord Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).

4) True faith always produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). The inner person is transformed by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 2:20), and the Christian has new nature (Romans 6:6). Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God’s Word (John 8:31), keep God’s Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21–23; Hebrews 3:14). Salvation is not adding Jesus to the pantheon of one’s idols; it is a wholesale destruction of the idols with Jesus reigning supreme.

5) God’s “divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life” (2 Peter 1:3; cf. Romans 8:32). Salvation, then, is not just a ticket to heaven. It is the means by which we are sanctified (practically) in this life and by which we grow in grace.

6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all. Christ demands unconditional surrender to His will (Romans 6:17–18; 10:9–10). Those who live in rebellion to God’s will do not have eternal life, for “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble” (James 4:6).

7) Those who truly believe in Christ will love Him (1 Peter 1:8–9; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). And those we love we long to please (John 14:15, 23).

8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is genuine (1 John 2:3). If a person remains unwilling to obey Christ, he provides evidence that his “faith” is in name only (1 John 2:4). A person may claim Jesus as Savior and pretend to obey for a while, but, if there is no heart change, his true nature will eventually manifest itself. This was the case for Judas Iscariot.

9) Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). This was the case for Simon Peter. A “believer” who completely turns away from the Lord plainly shows that he was never born again to begin with (1 John 2:19).

A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). Of course, spiritual growth can occur quickly or slowly, depending on the person and his circumstances. And the changes may not be evident to everyone at first. Ultimately, God knows who are His sheep, and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

Is it possible to be a Christian and live in lifelong carnality, enjoying the pleasures of sin, and never seeking to glorify the Lord who bought him? Can a sinner spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior? Can someone pray a “sinner’s prayer” and go about his life as if nothing had happened and still call himself a “Christian”? Lordship salvation says “no.” Let us not give unrepentant sinners false hope; rather, let us declare the whole counsel of God: “You must be born again” (John 3:7).


(Lordship Salvation site.)


Kefa

 

[breno785au]

Do you think some might want a saviour from their sin, but do not want Jesus to in reality be lord of their life? In other words, they are not prepared to yield their lives to Christ, there is much they insist on clinging to they would let go if Jesus was truly lord of their life
I have been in that place, so I don't find I hard to accept that statement

I would say that its something that you 'grow into' as you seek and walk with God. I don't know anyone who obeyed God perfectly in all things from the point of being born again.