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The Lord Jesus Christ was in the flesh just like we are.
The flesh wants things just by its nature of being flesh.
The Lords Flesh must have wanted these same things as our flesh wants. But the Lord abstained from them. Because His Father was His Perfect Example.
Our own fathers probably weren't exactly what you would call a shining example... Life is hard. We do things to protect ourselves. Etc... Not saying this to condone anything, just saying I get it...
And then there is Faith. I don't think any of us has perfect faith. But The Lord Jesus does and did.
I suppose this is as close to explaining how the Lord knew our plight but didn't know sin as I would be able to explain. Its hard to explain to each other who and how the Lord is when we don't really, fully understand. We just know that He is Good and we mostly aren't...
The flesh wants things just by its nature of being flesh.
The Lords Flesh must have wanted these same things as our flesh wants. But the Lord abstained from them. Because His Father was His Perfect Example.
Our own fathers probably weren't exactly what you would call a shining example... Life is hard. We do things to protect ourselves. Etc... Not saying this to condone anything, just saying I get it...
And then there is Faith. I don't think any of us has perfect faith. But The Lord Jesus does and did.
I suppose this is as close to explaining how the Lord knew our plight but didn't know sin as I would be able to explain. Its hard to explain to each other who and how the Lord is when we don't really, fully understand. We just know that He is Good and we mostly aren't...
S
Sanashankar
Guest
This was just brought up on another thread but thought it would be interesting to discuss...
"He became sin" who did no sin...would that not suggest that "sin" is a spiritual force?
Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;
“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).
“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).
This is the proper order too. It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”
Fifty-four (54) times in the book of Leviticus alone… one book, we see the words ‘sin’ all by itself s-i-n, sin translated sin offering. Guess what? The word offering is never found in italics in those places, because it is a part of the translation, it means ‘sin offering.’ The word offering is understood. In all fifty-four the King James got it right, but in the New Testament they apparently or conveniently forgot that Christ, who was indeed “our PASSOVER,” was therefore also our “sin OFFERING.”
1 Cor. 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
Christ is our Passover. The Passover lamb was an offering, it was a sacrifice, it was not ‘the’ sin of Israel. It was a offering - a sacrifice. Jesus Christ is that sacrifice, He is that Passover, it says so. Now was that Passover lamb ‘the’ sin or was it just a sacrifice ‘for’ sin?
Lev 4:20 And he shall do6213 with the bullock6499 as834 he did6213 with the bullock6499 for a sin offering,2403 so3651 shall he do6213 with this: and the priest3548 shall make an atonement3722 for5921 them, and it shall be forgiven5545 them.
I left the numbers right in there, you can see the Hebrew word # 2403 you’ve got two words “sin offerings” for the one word. If you look up that #2403 it will give you the definition of sin, not the definition of offering. How come they translate it sin offering? Because all Hebrews knew that that’s what it meant.
If Hebrews don’t understand their own language, how are we going to translate anything? By whose authority are we going to translate Hebrew Scripture if the Hebrews don’t understand their own language? Can we see how they did it? What justification is there for saying Christ is made sin, period? He was made a ‘sin offering’ and the Scripture proves it, fifty-four times in the book of Leviticus alone.
Lev 4:24 And he shall lay5564 his hand3027 upon5921 the head7218 of the goat,8163 and kill7819 it in the place4725 where834 they kill7819 (853) the burnt offering5930 before6440 the LORD:3068 it1931 is a sin offering.2403
Did you notice “burnt offering,” there is one Hebrew word next to it. Do you think that word defines the word offering? No… burnt, what does burnt mean? It means a burnt offering, that’s what the word means.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay5564 (853) his hand3027 upon5921 the head7218 of the sin offering,2403 and slay7819 (853) the sin offering2403 in the place4725 of the burnt offering.5930
Notice that in every case, “sin offering” is translated from only one word, not two and that one word [Heb. chattaah - stands for “sin” and not for offering]. Offering is understood. Notice in the Scripture that the same is true for “burnt offering.”
Sin-offering is an alternate meaning of hamartia found in the Greek Old Testament. Since the apostles and the church at Corinth mainly used the Septuagint, they undoubted understood that hamartis [Gk: For ‘sin’] could mean a sin-offering. This was not an ambiguous, obscure, or hard to understand passage for those Greek Christians who received this letter, or other early Christians who read it later.” (Redemption Realized Through Christ By Leland M. Haines)
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]for more [/FONT]http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
B
BradC
Guest
The substitutionary atonement for sin is Christ not just dying for us but AS US. He not only bore our sin but BECAME SIN. He was not a partaker of our sin, making him a sinner, but became the very thing that separated us from God, SIN! God had no choice but to crucify his only begotten Son and that was the purpose for which He was sent by the Father, to be the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. His identification with us included all our sin, the sin of Adam and what sin would produce in us in terms of our sins. It was also efficacious making it effective for all sinners for all have sinned from conception not willing that any should perish. For if any man believes upon the Son he has life and if any believes not he has not life and will perish.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;
“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).
“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).
This is the proper order too. It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”
Fifty-four (54) times in the book of Leviticus alone… one book, we see the words ‘sin’ all by itself s-i-n, sin translated sin offering. Guess what? The word offering is never found in italics in those places, because it is a part of the translation, it means ‘sin offering.’ The word offering is understood. In all fifty-four the King James got it right, but in the New Testament they apparently or conveniently forgot that Christ, who was indeed “our PASSOVER,” was therefore also our “sin OFFERING.”
1 Cor. 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
Christ is our Passover. The Passover lamb was an offering, it was a sacrifice, it was not ‘the’ sin of Israel. It was a offering - a sacrifice. Jesus Christ is that sacrifice, He is that Passover, it says so. Now was that Passover lamb ‘the’ sin or was it just a sacrifice ‘for’ sin?
Lev 4:20 And he shall do6213 with the bullock6499 as834 he did6213 with the bullock6499 for a sin offering,2403 so3651 shall he do6213 with this: and the priest3548 shall make an atonement3722 for5921 them, and it shall be forgiven5545 them.
I left the numbers right in there, you can see the Hebrew word # 2403 you’ve got two words “sin offerings” for the one word. If you look up that #2403 it will give you the definition of sin, not the definition of offering. How come they translate it sin offering? Because all Hebrews knew that that’s what it meant.
If Hebrews don’t understand their own language, how are we going to translate anything? By whose authority are we going to translate Hebrew Scripture if the Hebrews don’t understand their own language? Can we see how they did it? What justification is there for saying Christ is made sin, period? He was made a ‘sin offering’ and the Scripture proves it, fifty-four times in the book of Leviticus alone.
Lev 4:24 And he shall lay5564 his hand3027 upon5921 the head7218 of the goat,8163 and kill7819 it in the place4725 where834 they kill7819 (853) the burnt offering5930 before6440 the LORD:3068 it1931 is a sin offering.2403
Did you notice “burnt offering,” there is one Hebrew word next to it. Do you think that word defines the word offering? No… burnt, what does burnt mean? It means a burnt offering, that’s what the word means.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay5564 (853) his hand3027 upon5921 the head7218 of the sin offering,2403 and slay7819 (853) the sin offering2403 in the place4725 of the burnt offering.5930
Notice that in every case, “sin offering” is translated from only one word, not two and that one word [Heb. chattaah - stands for “sin” and not for offering]. Offering is understood. Notice in the Scripture that the same is true for “burnt offering.”
Sin-offering is an alternate meaning of hamartia found in the Greek Old Testament. Since the apostles and the church at Corinth mainly used the Septuagint, they undoubted understood that hamartis [Gk: For ‘sin’] could mean a sin-offering. This was not an ambiguous, obscure, or hard to understand passage for those Greek Christians who received this letter, or other early Christians who read it later.” (Redemption Realized Through Christ By Leland M. Haines)
for more http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
Friend "translated" does not mean folks get to add their own words to Gods Word...the word "offering" is not in the Greek and makes no sense in context of the passage .. never in the New Testament Greek is the word for sin translated as sin offering and clearly its not intended here.
M
Mitspa
Guest
So you believe that Jesus..the Word made flesh had sin in the flesh like you and me?The Lord Jesus Christ was in the flesh just like we are.
The flesh wants things just by its nature of being flesh.
The Lords Flesh must have wanted these same things as our flesh wants. But the Lord abstained from them. Because His Father was His Perfect Example.
Our own fathers probably weren't exactly what you would call a shining example... Life is hard. We do things to protect ourselves. Etc... Not saying this to condone anything, just saying I get it...
And then there is Faith. I don't think any of us has perfect faith. But The Lord Jesus does and did.
I suppose this is as close to explaining how the Lord knew our plight but didn't know sin as I would be able to explain. Its hard to explain to each other who and how the Lord is when we don't really, fully understand. We just know that He is Good and we mostly aren't...
How can the Word be His Flesh and have sin? You cant seem to answer that ?
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14 And the Word (God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us....
"The word" is Jesus as God; He was in the beginning. However, at the incarnation Jesus as God (the word) was made flesh. God didn't stop being God, but He became what He was not by divine right, that is the son of man.
B
BradC
Guest
The Lord Jesus Christ was in the flesh just like we are.
The flesh wants things just by its nature of being flesh.
The Lords Flesh must have wanted these same things as our flesh wants. But the Lord abstained from them. Because His Father was His Perfect Example.
Our own fathers probably weren't exactly what you would call a shining example... Life is hard. We do things to protect ourselves. Etc... Not saying this to condone anything, just saying I get it...
And then there is Faith. I don't think any of us has perfect faith. But The Lord Jesus does and did.
I suppose this is as close to explaining how the Lord knew our plight but didn't know sin as I would be able to explain. Its hard to explain to each other who and how the Lord is when we don't really, fully understand. We just know that He is Good and we mostly aren't...
The only human condition we can compare the Lord being the flesh is when Adam and Eve were created from the dust of the earth having their flesh but without sin. They had no inner compunction for sin which is indicated by the fact that they were naked and not ashamed (Gen 2:25). However, after the fall they hid themselves and covered themselves with fig leaves because they became aware of their nakedness (Gen 3:7). They were created and not born as we are born in the flesh. They were created without sin being within the members of their body of flesh. We are born in the flesh with sin in our members. When we are born again we are born of the Spirit and through the cross our flesh has been crucified. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6). We are not in the flesh (though we have flesh) but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in us (Rom 8:9).
Christ knew no sin and was never acquainted with sin because there was no sin in him. He was born in the 'likeness of sinful flesh' (in appearance and in weakness) but without sin. The only difference between his flesh and ours is that sin did not resides in the members of his body as it does ours (Rom 7:23). All the things that we have in the heart described and outlined in (Mt 15:19 & Mk 21-23) did not exist in the heart of our Lord, who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth (1 Pt 2:22-25).
Man was created in the image of God but after the fall no man was born in the image of God until Jesus Christ (Col 1:15, 2Cor 4:4). After Cain slew Abel the scriptures in (Gen 4 & 5:1-3) teach that Adam begat a son in his own likeness, after his image and called his name Seth.
M
Mitspa
Guest
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14 And the Word (God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us....
"The word" is Jesus as God; He was in the beginning. However, at the incarnation Jesus as God (the word) was made flesh. God didn't stop being God, but He became what He was not by divine right, that is the son of man.
Yes the Word was made "flesh"...That flesh cannot possibly be sinful.
When we are born again we are born of the Spirit and through the cross our flesh has been crucified.
Total baloney!
We were crucified with Christ 2000 years ago (see Rom 6:6/7:4). Who is the "we"? Our corporate fallen life, indwelt with our bent (sin). If not, then your old life didn't die and you are still under the curse of the law. But that's the gospel you preach, so be it!
Yes the Word was made "flesh"...That flesh cannot possibly be sinful.
The Bible calls this the spirit of anti-Christ. It also calls folks who present this other gospel, a deceiver. Perhaps you are ignorant? In that case this doesn't apply to you....Only you know.
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."2 John 1:7
Jesus as the son of man is of the seed of David & Abraham. He was "made flesh". He took upon His deity, our fallen life indwelt with our bent, but in His case He defeated "sin in the flesh" where you and I have failed miserably. Christ has rewritten your history, unless you want to pretend that He didn't assume your old life from Adam. If so, you are preaching "another gospel". The result? Eternal damnation.
Christ knew no sin and was never acquainted with sin because there was no sin in him. He was born in the 'likeness of sinful flesh' (in appearance and in weakness) but without sin.
So God pretended? Jesus pretended He was tempted? What utter nonsense. He was tempted, as we are, yet without sin (transgression).
You sir are preaching another gospel that Paul never preached. Shame!
Rom 6:6 "...we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with"
Did your old self (life) die in Christ? What type of life do you have - one without indwelling sin? If so, you are a holy Joe and do not need Christ. No, your old life from Adam died in Christ. That's the gospel. If you reject this truth you are rejecting Christ.
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 7:4 you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
We have been delivered from under law because our fallen life from Adam died the justice of the law in Christ Jesus.
That is the gospel! Every other gospel is what Paul terms "another gospel".
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 7:4 you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
We have been delivered from under law because our fallen life from Adam died the justice of the law in Christ Jesus.
That is the gospel! Every other gospel is what Paul terms "another gospel".
M
Mitspa
Guest
The Bible calls this the spirit of anti-Christ. It also calls folks who present this other gospel, a deceiver. Perhaps you are ignorant? In that case this doesn't apply to you....Only you know.
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."2 John 1:7
Jesus as the son of man is of the seed of David & Abraham. He was "made flesh". He took upon His deity, our fallen life indwelt with our bent, but in His case He defeated "sin in the flesh" where you and I have failed miserably. Christ has rewritten your history, unless you want to pretend that He didn't assume your old life from Adam. If so, you are preaching "another gospel". The result? Eternal damnation.
lol ...now your getting funny.... So to believe that Jesus (the Word made flesh) WHO KNEW NO SIN ... had no sin in His flesh is the spirit of antichrist? No ... To say that Jesus had sin is blasphemy against His holiness and purity
M
Mitspa
Guest
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
B
BradC
Guest
Total baloney!
We were crucified with Christ 2000 years ago (see Rom 6:6/7:4). Who is the "we"? Our corporate fallen life, indwelt with our bent (sin). If not, then your old life didn't die and you are still under the curse of the law. But that's the gospel you preach, so be it!
Your problem is that you can not distinguish between positional truth and experiential truth. There are so many things that God did for us positionally through grace when we believed upon Christ (divine imputations). We have been justified from sin through grace and the blood of Christ and that is positional truth. This happened by faith because of the work of Christ on the cross. God has a plan through the details of life to make what he has done positionally for us experiential so that might know Him and the things that he has given unto us freely. Christ crucified the flesh with all the affections and lusts that go with it. As we take up our cross and walk by faith in the finished work we no longer have to be controlled by the appetites and desires of the flesh. Do we fail in this process...YES... but when we fail we fall into grace and God is able to make us stand. He does that so that we might know him and trust him in all things. Through the cross we have been seated together with him in heavenly places. That is our position in Christ. Read the book of Ephesian and count the ways that we have been placed in Christ as a fixed position that no man can alter or move us from. Even our sin can't remove us from that position we have in Christ.
Your problem is that you can not distinguish between positional truth and experiential truth.
My problem? No, I don't have a problem theologically, you do....
What saves is our position "in Christ". What we experience is called the fruits of the gospel. That last part is not the subject here. The gospel is the subject.
There are so many things that God did for us positionally through grace when we believed upon Christ (divine imputations).
No, it doesn't say "when we believed upon Christ". Christ saved you before you were born in Himself.
Eph 2:4 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love (agape) with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...
Notice the past tense: When you were spiritually dead, enemies of God (see Rom 5:10), God made you spiritually alive WITH CHRIST and thus you were (past tense) saved by grace.
The proof? God raised your new, glorified humanity up with Christ and seat this new creation with Christ in the heavenly places. In Christ you have a new, glorified humanity free from all sin. That happened about 2000 years ago.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 7:4 you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
We have been delivered from under law because our fallen life from Adam died the justice of the law in Christ Jesus.
That is the gospel! Every other gospel is what Paul terms "another gospel".
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lTo say that Jesus had sin is blasphemy against His holiness and purity
Christ, as the son of man, had to deal with what tempts us, i.e, our bent-to-self or self-love. This self-love comes from within. This bent tempted Christ, just as we are tempted, but He never failed. Deal with it.....
Did your old self (life) die in Christ? What type of life do you have - one without indwelling sin? If so, you are a holy Joe and do not need Christ. No, your old life from Adam died in Christ. That's the gospel. If you reject this truth you are rejecting Christ.
Well???????????????????