LORDSHIP SALVATION

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

In my best Sherman Potter...cheese and crackers! lol

Okay, let's look at it again.

This...

1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

...refers to the Children of Israel in the physical, and this...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

...refers to the spiritual aspect of their existence.

You have ignored the fact that they went through the sea on dry land, thus negating any possibility that water baptism has anything whatsoever to do with what Paul is speaking about.

And the spiritual meat and spiritual drink they received was that which came forth from God which they rejected:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Now would you show me where these people were born again believers?

Because you are not going to do that with vv.1-2.

KennethC said:

It's not symbolic, my friend, the cloud is a direct reference to the Holy Spirit, and the mention of the sea refers to the deliverance they received, which was...

...physical, not spiritual.

They did not get Baptized into Christ because they passed through the sea on dry land.

KennethC said:

The "water of the New Covenant" has nothing to do with them passing through the sea or being baptized unto Moses. It is a matter of their being identified with Moses.

KennethC said:

There is nothing spiritual in vv.1-2 other than their identification with Moses.

1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

KennethC said:

Yet you have them being born again by passing through the sea, insisting they were immersed in water when they went on dry land.

And you compound your error by misunderstanding Hebrews, teaching that salvation is like unto the wanderings of unbelievers and that salvation is something we work for.

Consider:

Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

They were unbelievers...not born again believers.

And the following statement shows that those who do have faith...

[SUP]3[/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

...enter into the Rest which is in Christ.

The Writer does not equate the two experiences except on the basis of unbelief.

Had to look up to any brazen serpents lately?

KennethC said:

And if you would read the thread you would see that I have made that exact statement in addressing the No-Lordship Movement.

You are seriously humorous in that you are talking about everything but that which is relevant to the thread, and that which you do talk about shows a pretty apparent confusion in regards to salvation.

What is even funnier is that you have people who have been promoting easy believism, greasy grace, and No-Lordship Salvation liking your posts. Now that is hilarious.

KennethC said:

No, it most certainly is not.

You are imposing into the text something that is not only not there...it negates what actually is:

1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Not baptized into Christ.

KennethC said:

That is precisely what Paul states:

1 Corinthians 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

KennethC said:

That is a thread designed to discuss your erroneous belief of Baptismal Regeneration, which is a false doctrine.

KennethC said:

What you should do is try to take your pet peeves to threads which actually speak about those peeves, lol.

It actually deals with the issue, whereas here the issue is Lordship Salvation.

I don't mind rabbit trails but for Pete's sake (pun intended)...at least try to be somewhat on topic.

KennethC said:

And a shadow, figure, parable...is not the reality.

The "rest" provided to the Children of Israel was the land of Canaan.

The bread they were provided with was manna.

The baptism they received was being identified with Moses, who played mediator between God and they.

They were specifically inducted into relationship with God through the Covenant of Law.

They were commanded to offer up sacrifice for sins.

Can you name at least one of the spiritual realities that replaced the physical realities provided in the Covenant of Law?

KennethC said:

I think most who have followed this thread would say I do, lol.

KennethC said:

Great, now show me where the disciples were born again.

Show me, for that matter...where the disciples were baptized into the name of Jesus Christ.

Here is how Christ defined their cleansing:

John 15

King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Here is how Paul spoke about Christ cleansing the Bride:

Ephesians 5:25-27

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

[SUP]26 [/SUP]That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

[SUP]27 [/SUP]That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Here is how men are cleansed spiritually and empowered to live holy in regeneration:

Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Here is Christ teaching about the eternal indwelling...

John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

And here is when the opportunity to be born again became available...

John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, just to point out the inconsistency of your doctrine, understand that you are saying two things, first that you, nor we, are baptized into Moses...

...then...

KennethC said:

If you make the Children of Israel being Baptized into Moses a literal regenerative event then you cannot say that we are not baptized into Moses "spiritually."

It is sloppy Soteriology, my friend, so perhaps you can tighten it up a little before spewing your works-based nonsense in the Public eye. This kind of "Theology" is a little embarrassing to some of us.

God bless.

KennethC · Nov 9, 2015

Pilgrim people don't like responding to long threads on here because we just don't have the time to go through it all, plus speaking in a lot of words does not prove you are more knowledgeable then others.

Also you still show the same thing over and over even though you try to deny it as you say it is not symbolic when it is as those things are shadows of what we will do in the New Covenant through Christ. The scriptures clearly speak on this !!!

Also you do realize a person after being born again can still quench and grieve the Holy Spirit, and some can fall back to perdition ???

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

Here is a lesson from Christ in regards to the physical provision of the Old Testament and the Spiritual provision of the New Covenant:

John 6:29-35

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Christ contrasts manna with the True Bread which came down from Heaven, and identifies that Bread as Himself.

Not manna.

John 6:47-51

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]47 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]I am that bread of life.

[SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

[SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

[SUP]51[/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

In other words, my friend, it was not until Christ came down from Heaven and gave His flesh, meaning that He died on the Cross, that eternal life was made available to men under New Covenant conditions.

The fathers ate manna and were dead according to Christ, which would have included Moses.

That bread was physical provision, Christ is the Spiritual and Eternal Provision.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

james57 said:

You don't believe people in an unsaved state receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?

You think saved people are the only ones who receive the indwelling Spirit of God?

But thanks for showing your doctrine. You believe the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event and that we have a dichotomy of believers, thus presenting as great an error as that of the No-Lordship Camp.

This other fellow wants to derail the thread with his false doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration, and you want to derail it with your Charismatic Doctrine.

Are you the same James that was in the "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?" Thread?

Understand that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit began to take place at Pentecost, and it was not a subsequent event, it was the fulfillment of not only Old Testament Promise but the very teachings of Christ:

Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

They would, not many days hence, receive the Spirit of God:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They did not only lack power to preach the Gospel, but lacked the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant Ministry He performs in this Age.

As far as tongues go, you seem rather boastful in my view.

So what languages have you spoken?

God bless.

KennethC · Nov 9, 2015

So are you trying to say nobody from the OT received eternal life ???

If you are trying to say that they you are completely wrong, where was Elijah taken in 2 Kings 2 ???

Also Moses and Elijah appeared before the Lord and the Apostles in Matthew 17, and this was before He died on the cross. Does not sound like they are dead to me, and also the scriptures say He is not God of the dead but of the living !!!

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

james57 said:

Yup.

james57 said:

No, you could engage in the typical slothful approach being identified in this thread.

So far we have seen people preach and teach lying deceit, gossip, bear false witness, teach that true faith is divorced from repentance, that the Children of Israel were born again believers despite the fact that all accounts show them to be idolatrous unbelievers, had the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant equated to be the same thing, the promises of the Old Testament turned from promise to realities being bestowed in those days, that men are born again by being water baptized...

And all of that in just a page or two.

MacArthur is probably off by a couple thousand.

P.S.-don't tell anyone I said that because it might ruin my reputation as a loyal cult follower.

james57 said:

I would agree wholeheartedly.

james57 said:

Not for a born again believer...who does not have a natural mind.

We call that plain old fashioned...

...disobedience.

james57 said:

Might be a good reason for that.

God bless.

james57 · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

God is the God of the living. However, no one who departed this earth in ot tines went to dwell with God in heaven
I imagine you will now quote Elijah. But which heaven did he go to? Paul tells us he was taken to the third heaven:
No one has ever entered heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man john 3:13

We know God will dwell with men when the new Jerusalem comes down to this earth from heaven, not before

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

That is precisely what I am saying, lol.

And you can continue to impose into Old Testament Economies that which is not there, I will build my own Doctrine on taking in all relevant revelation:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Go ahead...tell me the writer of Hebrews is wrong about this.

KennethC said:

I have no idea, other than he was caught up into the heavens, lol.

I can say with some authority that he did not go to Heaven:

Hebrews 9:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

You have no idea how hilarious it is to have you charge me with a failure to distinguish between the physical/temporal and the Spiritual/Eternal.

Entrance to Heaven was established through the Work of Christ:

Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The most likely destination for both Enoch and Elijah is of course Abraham's Bosom.

KennethC said:

You are confusing the Life Christ bestows and the nature of spirits.

Do you also impose eternal life on the spirits that are in hades?

Do you feel the Rich Man has the Eternal Life one receives when they are reconciled to God?

All spirits will have endless existence, that is a far cry from having everlasting life.

And I would remind you that when Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration, there is no question that he was dead:

Deuteronomy 34:7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Jude 9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

You are in fact the one that is confusing the spiritual and the physical, my friend.

God bless.

KennethC · Nov 9, 2015

james57 said:

That still does not say they are dead and I know about the third heaven and where it is located, and nobody who has died under the New Covenant has gone to dwell where God is either. That takes place when the New Heaven and New Earth comes.

james57 · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

I didn't say they were dead did I?
The rest of your post we agree on

KennethC · Nov 9, 2015

Again Pilgrim please keep your responses shortened as you don't prove nothing by long winded postings.......

Also I think you need to so some more studying if you think all spirits have endless existences, as scripture clearly shows those who are disobedient will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

There is only a handful of people that is stated to burn in punishment for eternity, others will be completely destroyed in the lake of fire !!!

KennethC · Nov 9, 2015

james57 said:

Well that was what I responding to in my previous post that Pilgrim misused scripture to say they of the OT are dead.

Christ was speaking of physical death not spiritual death in the passage he brought up, as scripture clearly says God is the God of the living not the dead. Thus being dead can only refer to physical death because spiritually they did have faith and walk with the Lord in the OT.

Some people I think look at the physical too much, as when the OT is speaking of the Spirit of the Lord coming to them it is speaking of Jesus before He came in the flesh !!!

james57 · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

Certainly christians who depart this earth are not dead from Gods point of view:
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word he will never see death john 8:51
Only the physical body dies

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

I don't say it...Christ taught it.

Go back and read John 6.

Again...

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

KennethC said:

If his physical life ended at that time then he would have gone to the Bosom of Abraham.

Not Heaven.

Hebrews 9:6-10

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

KennethC said:

You confuse spiritual life with Eternal Life.

Do you also impose eternal life on the dead which reside in Hades today?

Did the rich man, who was still in spiritual existence...have eternal life through Christ?

Just because Moses and Elijah had not passed out of existence does not mean they had eternal life. That would not happen for them until their transgressions were redeemed through the Work of Christ.

The statement...

Matthew 22:32

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

...was given to deny the doctrine of Sadducees who believed that when men died...that was it:

Matthew 22:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

[SUP]31[/SUP]But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

[SUP]32 [/SUP]I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

We do not nullify Christ's teaching that contrasts the physical provision of the Old Testament Economies with the Life that HE came from Heaven to bring.

While Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were indeed still alive in spirit, contrary to the error of the Sadducees, that does not equate to "They had eternal life."

Again, all spirits remain in existence after physical death, and in fact all people, both just and unjust alike will be fitted with physical bodies suited to the eternal existence they will enjoy or endure. But only those who take part in what is called in Revelation the First Resurrection (the resurrection unto life) will have eternal life.

For those born again in this Age, they receive that eternal life immediately. For those born prior to the Cross, their reconciliation to God occurred after the Cross.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

There are plenty of members here who will be perfectly happy to chat with you, no-one forces you to read my responses.

But you are never going to accomplish any serious discussion with such a slothful approach.

And your Theology is going to suffer. As it so clearly is.

KennethC said:

So you have embraced Annihilation. Is that it?

And let me save you a little typing: you will say "I never said That!!!!! You are misrepresenting me!!!! Do you always twist what other people say?????"

Feel free to copy and paste.

The fact is that all spirits are going to exist forever...somewhere. This includes the spirits of just men, the spirits of the wicked, and demons and Angels.

KennethC said:

That is false doctrine.

And someone was questioning the 1000 deaths people die from lack of discernment.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

That's Lordship Salvation!!!!

God bless.

james57 · Nov 9, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

There are plenty of members here who will be perfectly happy to chat with you, no-one forces you to read my responses.

But you are never going to accomplish any serious discussion with such a slothful approach.

And your Theology is going to suffer. As it so clearly is.

So you have embraced Annihilation. Is that it?

And let me save you a little typing: you will say "I never said That!!!!! You are misrepresenting me!!!! Do you always twist what other people say?????"

Feel free to copy and paste.

The fact is that all spirits are going to exist forever...somewhere. This includes the spirits of just men, the spirits of the wicked, and demons and Angels.

That is false doctrine.

And someone was questioning the 1000 deaths people die from lack of discernment.

God bless.

I did say people would have to do A LOT of studying to have 1,000 heresies!

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

KennethC said:

More false doctrine, and all of this because of confusion on salvation.

Shall I try to respond how you would like me too? With chit chat?

Ok, here is that response, I will try to follow your own method:

Yeah, well, Paul said somewhere something about a third heaven or something, which proves that people go to heaven I think!!!!

Now, here is my own method for dealing with the false doctrine of Soul Sleep:

First, the use of the word "soul" can almost always be seen to refer to man in his dichotomous state.

Especially in regards to the Old Testament.

Secondly, no soul sleeper is ever going to be able to wrest this...

2 Corinthians 5

King James Version (KJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[SUP]7 [/SUP](For we walk by faith, not by sight)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

...to mean something it doesn't, though with one who teaches that the Baptism with Moses is a spiritual picture of new birth, I wouldn't be surprised, lol.

We also see souls in Heaven:

Revelation 6:9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

We see the Two Witnesses caught up to Heaven:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This is a Post-Pentecost rapture, in which the Two Witnesses are bodily resurrected and then caught up to Heaven, into which flesh and blood cannot enter.

Flesh and bone, on the other hand...

Luke 24:36-39

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]36 [/SUP]And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

[SUP]39 [/SUP]Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now what does your doctrine teach again?

KennethC said:

Completely false and the result of not just a sloppy Soteriology, but a sloppy Eschatology as well.

It is ironic that the views of the Reformers, so desperate to believe differently than the Catholic Church, would end up influencing the Catholic Church to the point where their eschatology and hermeneutics can sometimes be indistinguishable.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 9, 2015

james57 said:

I don't think John was limiting to just one person, but simply pointed out that there are thousands of heresies due to the lack of discernment in the Body today. This creates a playground for the false teacher who keeps his students on the playground, lol.

And when we look upon the fields, there we see quite a bit of child-like Doctrine and Practice.

Just recently added to the list is Annihilation and Soul Sleep, and where, I wonder, are the Christians to stand up and rebuke such damnable doctrine?

On the monkey bars would be my guess.

God bless.

james57 · Nov 9, 2015

The souls were UNDER the altar, they were not dwelling with God in heaven.
And I think your understanding of 2cor5:1-8 is wrong.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying NOW(not before) the dwelling of God is with men rev21:3

There is much more that could be posted, but I am on a mobile, tomorrow I can copy/ paste

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