Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet

KennethC · Nov 7, 2015

No the bible shows that we are set free by being honest and admitting that we are sinners as Luke 18:13 shows, and 1 John clearly expounds on to show we are to continue to admit we have sinned and have sin in our lives.

When the Apostle John spoke that those who are born of God does not sin he was speaking on habitual sinning.

We are the righteousness of the Lord when we walk in the Spirit and not by the flesh, for we walk by His righteousness and not our own doing. If we do not acknowledge the sinful behavior we still possess in the flesh we run into danger of that as how James put it of looking into a mirror and seeing the vial person we are and then walk away and forget and return to doing those things again.

For we are to be doers of the word and not just hearers only !!!

skylove7 · Nov 7, 2015

Forgive me...
This thread lol...
Well, I just don't know how to respond lol

seed_time_harvest · Nov 7, 2015

Dan58 said:

That scripture was for someone under law though.

shotgunner · Nov 7, 2015

KennethC said:

We have had this conversation before. My position is that Christians are always the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, because we are always in Christ Jesus. I'm not in when I'm good and out when I'm bad. I not lost when I sin and saved again when I ask for forgiveness. We are God's righteousness because of our faith in Jesus, and not because of how we act.

Because of this, we are not sinners if we are saved. Saved people still sin, but it doesn't make them sinners. When I was lost, an act of righteousness didn't make me righteous before God. Now that I'm saved, an act of unrighteousness doesn't make me a sinner before God. Yes, I can still confess my sin and I should, but Joyce wasn't talking about not confessing sin, nor claiming to be without sin.

ladylynn · Nov 8, 2015

It is a difficult thing when we Christians put ourselves under the old covenant without even realizing it. At times we feel God is on our side depending on how we act., then we feel God is not on our side depending on how we act. One day we feel God is close to us, other times we feel God is far away. All depending on how we have behaved. That is NOT grace. That is works and that is living under the old covenant of the law. That is not how we are to be any longer. Our confidence is not in the flesh.

Before salvation we were by definition "sinners" who sinned and carried the condemnation and judgement of God upon us. The Christian who is never confident in Christ has not not come to the place of a true revelation of who they are IN Christ. That NOW under the new covenant, God sees them IN His Son Jesus., righteous and without the imputation of sin on them as when they were in Adam.

Jesus took that imputed sin from us when He died on the cross and 'sin' was imputed to HIM while His righteousness was imputed to us., those who have accepted Him as Savior. It's a wonderful thing to know who you are in Christ. We have access to God now. All due to Jesus finished work on the cross. ...Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith....

ladylynn · Nov 8, 2015

shotgunner said:

We have had this conversation before. My position is that Christians are always the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, because we are always in Christ Jesus. I'm not in when I'm good and out when I'm bad. I not lost when I sin and saved again when I ask for forgiveness. We are God's righteousness because of our faith in Jesus, and not because of how we act.

Because of this, we are not sinners if we are saved. Saved people still sin, but it doesn't make them sinners. When I was lost, an act of righteousness didn't make me righteous before God. Now that I'm saved, an act of unrighteousness doesn't make me a sinner before God. Yes, I can still confess my sin and I should, but Joyce wasn't talking about not confessing sin, nor claiming to be without sin.

This is a truth that many do not have as their own yet. It's all because of Jesus. Amen!

Magenta · Nov 8, 2015

shotgunner said:

I thought we were clothed in His righteousness, not the righteousness of God itself.

shotgunner · Nov 8, 2015

Magenta said:

I'm looking at it like this.

2 Corinthians 5:17King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

To me this speaks of a complete change much more so than a covering.

2 Corinthians 5:21King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

What I see is that God has made Jesus to be sin, not that he committed sin but has been made sin for us. Just as God had made Jesus sin, God has also made us to be the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 3:21-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This righteousness of God, which is who I am, is mine by faith alone.

KennethC · Nov 8, 2015

shotgunner said:

Well I am sorry to say then this way of thinking contradicts what the Apostle James said as he said we are drawn away by our own lusts/desires that then gives birth to sin. It does not say we sin and abide in Christ at the same time, which is why Apostle John says we are to confess our sins and continue to walk in the light.

If we go back to John 3:16-3:21 our Lord Jesus explains who comes to the light, and He says it is those who does the truth.

Nobody is saying you sin then get saved again as you would be reading that into it for a true born again believer will admit and acknowledge their faults/sins and confess them to the Lord to remain abiding in the light. There will be those who do not acknowledge their faults and give back into temptation to control their lives again, and the bible clearly speaks on those who fall back to perdition.

As for still not admitting to be a sinner I would caution you because lets go and take the words of the Apostle Paul himself who in 1 Timothy 1:15 still admitted to being a sinner and chief one at that !!!

KennethC · Nov 8, 2015

ladylynn said:

Read post #109 as Apostle Paul admitted to being a sinner !!!

RickyZ · Nov 8, 2015

shotgunner said:

ladylynn said:

Which shows that we need to understand the power of sin...

On the aspect of salvation, forgiveness is a once-for-lifetime event, and the power of sin has no effect on it. God will keep you for as long as you stay, and regard you as pure no matter how dirty you get. In this aspect your sin is no more, even the ones you commit post-salvation.

But in the here and now, the power of sin is that if you submit to a spiritual authority thru sin, you're submitted to a spiritual authority... until you rebuke it. When you submit to either a demon and/or the flesh yanking on your leash, you empower it over you.

Confession and repentance is the way you rebuke that and break it’s hold.

ember · Nov 10, 2015

ladylynn said:

I'm glad this thread got put up, thank you very much Lancelot. I've listened to Joyce for many years and have been blessed by her ministry. I hate the gossip and false information put out there on anyone. I know what you mean sis ember when you said you have been misunderstood and put out to dry a few times too LOL I've gotten a taste of it myself many times and I think it makes us more keen on not ever wanting to do that to anyone AND doing our best to defend others when we see it happening.

It sure gives us a huge respect and appreciation for the truth and how easy the world can take something just plain and simple and blow it up into something that ruins lives especially for those people who are 'out there' on tv,radio or anywhere in the public eye. The enemy uses these tactics, and especially the MONEY issue $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to actually BLOW PEOPLE OUT OF THE WATER AND OUT INTO SPACE.

I see money gets people's attention just about EVERY TIME. Wow.

It is a verrrryyyyy touchy subject. And I agree with shotgunners post about it.

And just a note to ViotetReigns and Joidevivre., you 2 ladies are just the sweetest I just want to hug you both. Your posts are always so good and kind and uplifting to my heart. And ember, you are both bold and swift to address an issue and stick with it until it's clearly out in the open. Staying on topic is so important on here. I appreciate the way you stay and hash it out with people. You did it with me and didn't judge me and walk away and because of that, we are friends now.

I so treasure your friendship here on CC. There is more too each of us then meets the eye on a thread. Blessings!!

thank you...you touched my heart with this one!

both sides have to be willing to listen...and you are always willing to hear ...so many, and this happens in real time conversation as well, just can't wait for the other person to stop speaking so they can have their say...that is not listening...that's just running over someone

as far as Violet and Joi...absolutely!

ember · Nov 10, 2015

blondieindahouse said:

that, is one thing I am not

you can ask anyone in the entire world who ever met me at any time, any place, anywhere...I am not a hypocrite...which actually has got me into hot water with folks who pretend...I don't pretend

but then again, you calling someone a name is right in keeping with the kindness you have shown others in this thread

you know, Ken for example, does not agree with some of us here...but he is always polite and he does listen

you might take your example from him ... as he has responded in the thread

I get it...you know you have been rude but instead of saying 'sorry' you climb even higher to throw rocks

well you missed

ember · Nov 10, 2015

shotgunner said:

amen!

check out Paul's letters...he never begins his correspondence with

Dear sinners in Christ

No no...he writes to the SAINTS at Ephesus, Corinth (and we all know what a load of sinning they had going on) and everywhere else EXCEPT for the Galatians...they had slipped back into law...which, basically put them under law which, meant they were actually not under grace

so simple!

ember · Nov 10, 2015

shotgunner said:

Maybe you don't understand what I am saying. All Christians sin, but that does not make them sinners. Christians aren't righteous by their works of righteousness, in the same way Christians aren't sinners by their sinning. Everything a Christian is, is based on Jesus and not on themselves.

I am the righteousness of God because I am in Christ Jesus, not because I never sin. Sinning doesn't make me a sinner because it doesn't remove me from Christ Jesus. Jesus paid for my sin.

Oh YES! YES! YES!

what fantastic true news!

shotgunner · Nov 10, 2015

KennethC said:

I'm going to take specific parts of your post and make them bold and then address each different part. You still don't understand but I suspect it's more because you don't want to understand. You continue to go against the word and hold to your works mentality.

Well I am sorry to say then this way of thinking contradicts what the Apostle James said as he said we are drawn away by our own lusts/desires that then gives birth to sin. It does not say we sin and abide in Christ at the same time, which is why Apostle John says we are to confess our sins and continue to walk in the light.

I didn't contradict a single thing James said. I said that we do sin and that sin doesn't come from Christ, it comes from our own lusts but it does not remove me from Christ. John does not say that we are to confess our sins and continue to walk in the light as if we are out of the light because of sin until we get back into the light by confessing. That may be your view but it is contrary to the scripture. Just look at it here.

1 John 1:7King James Version (KJV)[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Please read that scripture and just take it for what it says instead of what you want it to say. It says that if we walk in the light, as he is in the light. That means if we are in Christ, if we are saved, then the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The way you read it sin removes us from the light but that's not what the scripture says. It says that while we are in the light, we sin and his blood cleanses us from sin. It says that if we walk in the light and sin, his blood cleanses us.

Nobody is saying you sin then get saved again as you would be reading that into it for a true born again believer will admit and acknowledge their faults/sins and confess them to the Lord to remain abiding in the light. There will be those who do not acknowledge their faults and give back into temptation to control their lives again, and the bible clearly speaks on those who fall back to perdition.

That is exactly what you are saying, that you sin and need to get saved again. Here again I make bold your own words. "It does not say we sin and abide in Christ at the same time, which is why Apostle John says we are to confess our sins and continue to walk in the light."

I have news for you, you either abide in Christ or you are damned. The only way you will ever attain Heaven is in Christ. By yourself and by your works will never get you to Heaven. It's either in Christ or not at all. You just said that James says we cannot sin and abide in Christ at the same time. If you aren't abiding in Christ then you need to get saved. By your interpretation of James and by your words, you would need to get saved again every time you sin.

By your words, either you need to get saved again every time you sin, or you are out of Christ until you repent of that sin. That doctrine doesn't hold up either since I just showed you the scripture that says when we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light doesn't mean walking without sin because then there would be no sin to be cleansed from.

As for still not admitting to be a sinner I would caution you because lets go and take the words of the Apostle Paul himself who in 1 Timothy 1:15 still admitted to being a sinner and chief one at that !!!

You still can't understand how you can sin and not be a sinner. No one is saying they don't sin. If we are talking about sin as Paul is here, then I will tell you I am a sinner, but I don't identify myself as a sinner because my identity is hid in Christ. Paul understood this. He tells us in II Cor. 7:2 that he had wronged no man, yet he had been arresting Christians to be killed before meeting Jesus. Why didn't he tell us that he was a sinner then that had been killing Christians? He could say that he had wronged no man because he understood the new birth as he said in II Cor. 5:17, a new creation, all things of God.

PeterJens · Nov 10, 2015

Lancelot said:

Joyce is a pure greed preacher. The summary of her message is you deserve your dreams and God will deliver them to you as a child of God, you just have to reach out and claim them.

Jesus never preached or taught this self satisfaction or entitlement. Jesus taught if you seek righteousness and the kingdom you will be slandered, opposed, persecuted and killed. He talked about putting your treasures in heaven, not building mansions on earth and residing like kings here, feeling privileged because you deserve this success.

And how do you claim this reality? You speak it out, to determine your future. Many have rightly called this the same as pagan positivism. We are called to praise the Lord in all circumstances to see love conquer all, to be overcomers, to see what is of real eternal value and not get distracted by the world or lust after worldly things.

How is it the idea of walking after the passions of the flesh is thought of as spiritual? I have not seen or been shown where pure spiritual encouragement comes from these preachers, though they do talk about not being discouraged and working issues through, it is more good work ethics and successful work politics rather than anything to do with the gospel.

shotgunner · Nov 10, 2015

PeterJens said:

According to what you just said there is no blessing from following God, only destruction. Your words,"Jesus taught if you seek righteousness and the kingdom you will be slandered, opposed, persecuted and killed."

Does your bible contain a Deuteronomy 28, or did you rip it out because it didn't agree with your theology?

Deuteronomy 28:1-13King James Version (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

Yes, you will suffer persecution, but the blessing belongs to you according to God.

ember · Nov 10, 2015

PeterJens said:

I wonder what Joyce would say about you?

I wonder how she would judge you and others who have basically expressed your sentiments?

I will say that the little I know about her, she would not judge you since she knows the word states we do not judge the heart

you have already expressed your disbelief in all things having to do with the moving of the Holy Spirit in current day Christianity, forgetting like so many, that God sent the Holy Spirit and Jesus had to return to heaven in order for the Holy Spirit to descend and dwell in each believer

so I really do not take what you state with any credibility since you seem determined to throw out the third person of the godhead

I am unlikely to answer you, since answering you in the past has proven very unfruitful

however, you simply offer an opinion...not biblical truth

Siberian_Khatru · Nov 10, 2015

KennethC said:

I think you and I have different understandings of the definition of the word "criticize."

Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet

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