Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet

[sydlit]

Not real ones I hope. That could create unintended consequences.

I quite certain that there is an artist somewhere who would oblige your desire for that special toilet. If you have the cash you can probably have them made from sapphires.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why would she need excess cash and an artist when she could just 'plant a faith-seed' into the bowl, and believe she's already seated on the ladybug-covered-sapphire-throne of her dreams?(lol)

Btw, Praying for you, blb, for God's healing touch, and agreeing with you there's no magic formula or any supposed lack of faith on your part, as some WoF proponents might suggest, and praying also for more grace to bear for us both, as His healing comes in His way and He is always on time.
Hoping the new chair is helping. Who knows, maybe we can get it decorated to match the sapphire-ladybug toilet seat?

Also btw, it seems like the two posters in #177 are using different words to say much the same thing, but are trying desperately to find a way to disagree with each other.

 

[shotgunner]

I wonder how people who have to poop in a hole in the ground feel about our shiny porcelain thrones in our heated and air conditioned houses with our box thingy that keeps our food from spoiling?

Well, obviously we are evil, greedy, and worldly. We should sell what we have, give to the poor and live in a cardboard box.

That's why I see God as looking at all this as just silly nonsense. It's all born out of pride and greed. Some are proud of their poverty, of how much they suffer for God and see everyone else as full of selfishness. Some are proud of their wealth and how good they must be to deserve such blessings. God doesn't even care about the money, he just looks at the heart. He will bless those that bless others.

God will uphold his covenant for anyone who will believe. Wealth or the lack of it doesn't impress God at all. God is only moved by faith and only moves on the behalf of those who believe his word.

 

[PeterJens]

The Body of Christ must shrug off the poverty mentality.

Money is very deceptive. It gives power to those who have it, while taking it away from those who do not.
The church has often been poor because most people in the world are poor. The Lord does not care about money, it is us humans who care too much about it.

So the reality is, so many people want to do impossible things for the Lord, there is not enough wealth to do them all, so their is always a funding crisis between ambition and what is practical.

In the developing world the prosperity gospel is exploiting and destroying peoples lives, not because the Lord does not bless with money but because greed becomes the focus. And this is not a minor problem, you are talking 50% or so of all fellowships. And people who are desperately poor, living in slums, this is a massive issue.

Now if you have any wealth there are enumerable good causes to support and they are growing all the time. The church never has had a problem dealing with wealth, it simply does not have it.

 

[shotgunner]

Money is very deceptive. It gives power to those who have it, while taking it away from those who do not.
The church has often been poor because most people in the world are poor. The Lord does not care about money, it is us humans who care too much about it.

So the reality is, so many people want to do impossible things for the Lord, there is not enough wealth to do them all, so their is always a funding crisis between ambition and what is practical.

In the developing world the prosperity gospel is exploiting and destroying peoples lives, not because the Lord does not bless with money but because greed becomes the focus. And this is not a minor problem, you are talking 50% or so of all fellowships. And people who are desperately poor, living in slums, this is a massive issue.

Now if you have any wealth there are enumerable good causes to support and they are growing all the time. The church never has had a problem dealing with wealth, it simply does not have it.

This is where you are wrong Peter. You are looking at a thing and declaring it to be what you see with natural eyes. That is never what Jesus did, nor is it what he wants us to do. If Jesus thought like you just wrote, he would not have fed the multitude with a little boy's lunch. He would just have said," Well, we don't have enough and besides there is nowhere to buy here anyway."

You say "So the reality is, so many people want to do impossible things for the Lord, there is not enough wealth to do them all, so their is always a funding crisis between ambition and what is practical." The word says that all things are possible with God. The entire Word of God is about people doing the impossible because they believed in God who does the impossible.

You must stop looking at the natural and look through the eyes of faith. You say,"The church never has had a problem dealing with wealth, it simply does not have it." I say the church is the body of Christ. Nothing is impossible for Christ. The problem is that the church has been doing what they can do without ever believing for God to do anything.

 

[PeterJens]

You must stop looking at the natural and look through the eyes of faith. You say,"The church never has had a problem dealing with wealth, it simply does not have it." I say the church is the body of Christ. Nothing is impossible for Christ. The problem is that the church has been doing what they can do without ever believing for God to do anything.

Praise the Lord, today you are going to do the impossible and exercise your faith. What do you want the Lord to do for you?

 

[Sirk]

Praise the Lord, today you are going to do the impossible and exercise your faith. What do you want the Lord to do for you?

Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened for you. No need to be snarky about it. Why not find a new ax to grind? Every breath we draw is an impossible one if not for God.

 

[PeterJens]

Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened for you. No need to be snarky about it. Why not find a new ax to grind? Every breath we draw is an impossible one if not for God.

I am not being sarcastic. Do you understand to claim I can move a mountain only matters if I can move the mountain else it is just BS.

People have believed great things and walked in it, but it only matters when it works. The arguments here are so theoretical yet people have died because of them.

A young girl who believed she was healed of epilepsy got in bath, had a fit and drowned. This is where faith turns into death, because of negligence. It is not good enough to claim such high things and then disown the consequences.

I am all for works of faith, when God gives the gift of faith. I have seen this work in someones life. But it is a gift not something for everyone. Take the group who believe snakes will not kill you by faith. Time and again people from that group die from snake bites. How many have to die before they accept they are taking it too far and just testing the Lord.

"Seek and you will find" is about wisdom from God. And God has given me wisdom that some people are just stupid, rebellious, slanderous and out to condemn those who simply follow the gospel in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Sirk]

I am not being sarcastic. Do you understand to claim I can move a mountain only matters if I can move the mountain else it is just BS.

People have believed great things and walked in it, but it only matters when it works. The arguments here are so theoretical yet people have died because of them.

A young girl who believed she was healed of epilepsy got in bath, had a fit and drowned. This is where faith turns into death, because of negligence. It is not good enough to claim such high things and then disown the consequences.

I am all for works of faith, when God gives the gift of faith. I have seen this work in someones life. But it is a gift not something for everyone. Take the group who believe snakes will not kill you by faith. Time and again people from that group die from snake bites. How many have to die before they accept they are taking it too far and just testing the Lord.

"Seek and you will find" is about wisdom from God. And God has given me wisdom that some people are just stupid, rebellious, slanderous and out to condemn those who simply follow the gospel in the Holy Spirit.

"If only you have enough faith"...as if God is limited by how much faith we have.

 

[skylove7]

Please do pardon me...ummm?
LOL
10 pages yet...

I confess....I 'still'...
Do not know 'how' to respond. lol

Love

 

[KohenMatt]

I haven't read through the whole thread, nor do I really want to. But a question should be asked....

Think about the amount of time we spend in our cars over the course of our lives. How much money do we spend on cars?

Think about the amount of time we spend in the bathroom over the course of our lives.

Now ask yourself,
Is there really a price too high for a nice toilet?

 

[PeterJens]

"If only you have enough faith"...as if God is limited by how much faith we have.

There are enumerable things I could hope for, but most will not happen or are sensible. Among these issues, sometime people get a gift of faith to believe a particular thing. It just happens and they are certain. I have had this and seen others get a similar conviction.

The issue about faith is simple. I can pray, "Lord save all sinners." But he will not. "Heal all people in hospital." But he will not. Now as I work down the list I get to things that the Lord will help with and is concerned about. Encourage my brother over his exams, guide this sister over her next steps, help this family find a home etc.

In our church we have people dying from cancer, MS etc parkinsons, dementia. So this issue is not a passive, believe etc.
A young boy aged 9 has spinal chord cancer. Do you think in a church of 200+ this is not taken seriously etc.
People have been taken in their 80's, in their 40's. Some have been healed, some have had chemo, radio therapy.

At some point you wake up and say, the emotional / spiritual journey matters more than the physical healing journey and that is where the Lord is.

It is dishonouring of people who call themselves spiritual to say people lack faith or insight in these circumstances.
The Lord will not hold them innocent for their lack of grace and compassion to hurting families and people who have no simple answers to lifes most fundamental questions, why me?

A lot of people here are equally burdened, and see these discussions with pain and hurt. But that matters nothing to people with only an intellectual assent to faith but no heart.

 

[PeterJens]

Our pastor

Our pastor is a spirit filled believer who prays for the sick, has seen the Lord answer prayer and is active in supporting families etc through many different situations.

His mother had a stroke in her 60's. She was unable to communicate and lived in a coma for 6+ years. He prayed and hoped for a miracle, but nothing came. Many others came alongside and did the same. He spent time every week visiting and talking to his mother, until finally she died. This is life. There is no easy answer, but the Lord uses it all to His glory.

The miracle is that she survived so long and was cared for so well. The faithfulness of our pastor and his faith in Jesus is a shinning light that love matters above any token easy solution.

 

[ladylynn]

Please do pardon me...ummm?
LOL
10 pages yet...

I confess....I 'still'...
Do not know 'how' to respond. lol

Love

That's ok skylove7, This subject has always had Christians on different sides. I admit I was much like Peter and never experienced God's hand totally change my life circumstances until later in life. Until I hit my 50s I believed like so many here that God doesn't get involved in our silly health, family, job or money issues and He was much more interested in the huge issues like church., Bible study, missionaries, starving people in the world., sick people, cancer., war., nuclear holocausts, babies being aborted., and huge issues like that. He wasn't interested in MY daily walk and tiny issues in life.

But you see, all these issues just described are ALL small to Him. My measure of what is big in the level of importance comes from a limited human view point. I see high and low levels of importance. God sees each one from a God prospective...unlimited. He has declared that His ways are not our ways and our ways are not His.

Our lives are important to Him., He sent His Son to die for us so we could be redeemed from sin and bought back from sin's dominion. Born into His family and made sons and daughters of the Most High God. Why He loves us so much I don't know. I've puzzled over this many times but now I just accept it as true., He loves us and we are His.

So now we learn to walk as children of His. We ignore the impossible because what is more impossible than the God of the universe loving us so much that He would send His only Son to be our Savior??
Once you get a grasp and hold on to that fact, the knowledge of how His love and grace works in your life is a daily amazement. Nothing is impossible when you put your trust in God. When you know Jesus righteousness has been IMPUTED to you by no merit on your part. Just as our sin was IMPUTED to Jesus by no merit on His part.

The possibilities are endless. And because you know He did it for you., you are able to tell others that He will also do it for them!! We become witnesses to salvation and disciples to give out the Gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

I have got to say amen. God is interested in all our lives and every little detail.

But God does not do miracles like baubles on a christmas tree.
You could say the miracle is us walking in our lives today.

I was looking at the death rates in the UK at present. I have a 50% chance of making it to 75.
But if the Lord takes me tomorrow, then Amen.

Our culture wants a simple eternal existance in an eternal youth without hunger or troubles.
The focus is on this fairy world, an ideal and not getting down to the real emotional problems of everyday struggles.
This is where the Lord changes our focus and brings us into His presence and humbles us.

But hay, unless I claim a supernatural healing, or an impossible situation where I am about to die and God saves me it is not real spirituality.

This is not communion with the Lord but show bizz.

God makes the impossible possible everyday of my life but it is you who without this show bizz cannot believe you know Jesus. So who is actually walking in faith and who in unbelief?

 

[ladylynn]

As I read the differences between Christian thought here it is astounding how we come to such different conclusions. Some would say that looking out into the world and being overwhelmed with sadness and a hopelessness is called for and would emote feelings of pity and mercy from us. But what it actually does when you don't have the assurance that God is In Christ and Christ is in you and you are in them., you lose faith. Your eyes are not on Christ but on the world. Your view becomes limited and your faith is based on what you see. That goes against what the Bible has instructed us to do. We are to walk by faith and NOT by sight.

Hebrews 11:1 NOW FAITH is the assurance the confirmation, the title deed of the things we hope for, being the proof of things we do not see and the conviction of their reality (faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses)

That is what we are CALLED OUT to do. Each day I am reminded to not look and put weight on the horrible things my eyes see. The injustice of sin in the world. But instead to see with eyes of faith and believe and put weight instead on the God who has already accomplished so great a salvation. To not allow the devil to steal my joy because he so well knows better than we do that the JOY of the Lord is our strength.

If our joy is gone and we have no hope it is because we are putting more weight on the circumstances of life and not on the One who is able to change circumstances.

 

[PoetMary]

There's a significant difference between claiming that God is intimately interested in all aspects of our lives and God is some divine Santa in the sky.

The bible promises that all of our NEEDS will be met. No such promises are made regarding our wants. Part of the problem with the whole prosperity thing (and the slippery, deceptive aspect to it all) is that people keep cranking the bar.

Oh, we need a car to help our ministry. Oh we need a bigger car. Oh we need a LUXURY car. Oh, GOD HAS PROMISED TO PROVIDE US A LUXURY CAR. Uh...no.

Seriously...who cares? Solomon was right when he called it all vanity. The sheer amount of energy wasted by people seeking to feather their already substantial nests (in the West) is incredible. There is a major confusion of wants vs. needs.

I can ask God to provide my wants...he may or may not do so. Alternatively, I could prioritize and understand the difference between wants and needs. Now, instead of praying that I get everything I've ever wanted, I can lay aside that which is unnecessary and focus on the needs of others.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I heard her preach once on TV. I didn' t like how she taught on the story of the man at the pool of Bethesda. While I thought it wasn't the soundest teaching, I can' t say it was like, evil or anything. It was just a bit off to me.

 

[ladylynn]

There's a significant difference between claiming that God is intimately interested in all aspects of our lives and God is some divine Santa in the sky.

The bible promises that all of our NEEDS will be met. No such promises are made regarding our wants. Part of the problem with the whole prosperity thing (and the slippery, deceptive aspect to it all) is that people keep cranking the bar.

Oh, we need a car to help our ministry. Oh we need a bigger car. Oh we need a LUXURY car. Oh, GOD HAS PROMISED TO PROVIDE US A LUXURY CAR. Uh...no.

Seriously...who cares? Solomon was right when he called it all vanity. The sheer amount of energy wasted by people seeking to feather their already substantial nests (in the West) is incredible. There is a major confusion of wants vs. needs.

I can ask God to provide my wants...he may or may not do so. Alternatively, I could prioritize and understand the difference between wants and needs. Now, instead of praying that I get everything I've ever wanted, I can lay aside that which is unnecessary and focus on the needs of others.

Those of us who trust God for the impossible never consider God as being "some divine Santa in the sky."

Those are not my thoughts or feelings about God. Those are words from someone who doesn't know my relationship with my Father. And I must not be lacking in this area: to be one of the redeemed of the Lord and to also say so., God has blessed me with more than I need at times. God has shown up in life at times and where an issue was an impossibility - He erased the impossible situation and changed it in an instant. One second I'm standing there in what is total ruin.... then God shows up and changes it.

He is the God of time and space. The reason maybe it looks like we are 'cranking the bar' as you say PoetMary is because God keeps doing above and beyond what we expected. And as the redeemed of the Lord., we SAY so. And that is a good thing., not a slippery slope.

Having anything in this life without having Jesus is vanity and hopelessness. But having Jesus you have everything you need and more than you can imagine. When you go through the tribulations in life, He goes with you and shows up doing amazing and wonderful things. We don't go through it alone without hope like the world does. Our eyes keep getting fixed on Him not them.

As we grow in this grace and truth of the Gospel of our salvation, we come to learn what His will is for our lives. We open the Bible and find out what His promises are and we claim them. We do not want to be ignorant of any of it. And as we learn we grow to trust and ask as His Word tells us to. The reason we don't have is we don't ask. God wants us to ask for all our needs in life. This shows we are confident in the love of our Father to meet whatever comes. And we do it by faith. We expect Him to do what He says. We are being obedient when we do that, not presumptuous in a flippant way as some here have accused.

And as we see Him doing as He promised, we can also assure others that He did it for us and He will do it for you. We can pray and know our prayers will be answered by the God who does all things well. We have confidence to walk boldly in Him. Without Him we are without a covering and subject to the horror of human hopelessness. He has saved us from that and we can walk through it even when it is all around us.

 

[PoetMary]

Honestly, I don't get the obsession with stuff.

People haven't practiced the faith this way for 2000 years. The whole name it/claim it and prosperity schtick is new. The seeds of it began in the 1950s and it really got traction with the WoF preachers of the 80s and 90s. I guess after nearly 2000 years of Christian understanding and practice God decided to change the message to the church. Or wait....maybe the real message of God...that message that was evident from the beginning...that message that was practiced by the early church got distorted by social forces at work that Christians refuse to acknowledge. The prosperity gospel didn't come from the poor developing countries where people were "dreaming big" and "trusting an impossible God." It came from highly developed nations given over to consumerism. Nations where people define prosperity based on material goods. Nations where people have far more than what they need or can ever use.

So, if you want to be intellectually honest, you must at least ADMIT that there's a POSSIBILITY that this very, very new doctrine is a manifestation of acculturation and not some kind of new message from the Lord.

In the late 70s/early 80s Ann Kiemal wrote a book called, I'm Out to Change My World. A significant theme in the book had to do with the fact that we serve the God of the (seemingly) Impossible...the God of Big Dreams. Here's how that manifested for Ann. She approached the small youth group that she was leading and said, "We're going to win THIS CITY for Jesus."

I'm not interested in gathering trinkets as some so-called evidence of God (you know the kind that moth and rust destroy). If I'm going to dream big with God, I want those dreams to be about OTHER PEOPLE...about serving other people...about winning other people to God. I'm not interested in treasures on earth. I'm interested in treasures in heaven.

If other people want to seek after STUFF and when they get it, thank God...then that's what they should do. The early church did NOT do this. The church fathers did not do this. The great theological voices of Christendom did not advocate doing this.

I prefer to align myself with St. Francis, Chrysostom, Teresa of Avila, Florence Nightingale, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, C.S. Lewis, Mother Theresa, etc. None of these folks sought out the acquisition of stuff as a means of offering gratitude to God. They all dreamed big for God. They all engaged with the God of the Impossible and allowed Him to make their big dreams manifest. They all have made a lasting impact on the Kingdom.

 

[Ugly]

Actually Mary it's much older. It is new age teachings in a bible wrapper. It's just 'new' to the church. Similar teachings are found in known new age authors books.