NEED SUGGESTIONS FOR TODAY'S SERMON ON IMPORTANCE OF PASTORS...
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The word obey in Hebrews 13:17 above means to be convinced by. It doesn't mean to follow orders.
Obey
G3982 πείθω peitho (pei'-tho) v.
1. to convince (by argument, true or false)
And the word rule means lead, not bear rule.
Rule
G2233 ἡγέομαι hegeomai (hayg-eh'-om-ai) v.
1. to lead, i.e. command (with official authority)
Obey
G3982 πείθω peitho (pei'-tho) v.
1. to convince (by argument, true or false)
And the word rule means lead, not bear rule.
Rule
G2233 ἡγέομαι hegeomai (hayg-eh'-om-ai) v.
1. to lead, i.e. command (with official authority)
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Matthew 20:25-28 ESV
25But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[SUP]c[/SUP] 27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,[SUP]d[/SUP] 28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Ephesians 4:1-16 KJV
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
25But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,[SUP]c[/SUP] 27and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,[SUP]d[/SUP] 28even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Ephesians 4:1-16 KJV
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
It's a little late now I know, but there ARE actually two types of ministers like some have said. Many ARE hirelings, but they don't know it. The reason? They were raised in it. I was. I was taught to 'serve' the pastor like a master, always be there when he needs you, do whatever he needs you to do..... especially things he doesn't want to do himself. They are business managers, running the church like a successful business. They run the church..... either the pastors or the elder board. Their goals are to build up the church under their leadership to point the success to them, not to Jesus, the Head of the church.
Need proof? Go on the internet & Google "christian leadership conferences" & count the multitude of pages. Then Google "christian servantship conferences" & see what you'll find..... I haven't done it, but I bet you won't find a whole page full.
You see, it's not, nor ever been about "leadership"..... It's about SERVING OTHERS..... the very thing Jesus did, & Peter taught about:
1 Peter 2:20-25 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [SUP]23 [/SUP]Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True pastors are servants, "undershepherds" if you will, serving Christ first & others secondarily. Jesus served, giving Himself completely, all the way to the cross. This is why He says this:
Mark 8:34-38 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [SUP]35 [/SUP]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? [SUP]37 [/SUP]Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [SUP]38 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luke 14:25-33 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, [SUP]26 [/SUP]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? [SUP]29 [/SUP]Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, [SUP]30 [/SUP]Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? [SUP]32 [/SUP]Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. [SUP]33 [/SUP]So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
True pastors are to be sacrificing, serving examples to the flock to produce the same product as themselves..... servants of Christ..... not "Success in Life" christians.
Need proof? Go on the internet & Google "christian leadership conferences" & count the multitude of pages. Then Google "christian servantship conferences" & see what you'll find..... I haven't done it, but I bet you won't find a whole page full.
You see, it's not, nor ever been about "leadership"..... It's about SERVING OTHERS..... the very thing Jesus did, & Peter taught about:
1 Peter 2:20-25 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [SUP]22 [/SUP]Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [SUP]23 [/SUP]Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: [SUP]24 [/SUP]Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
True pastors are servants, "undershepherds" if you will, serving Christ first & others secondarily. Jesus served, giving Himself completely, all the way to the cross. This is why He says this:
Mark 8:34-38 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [SUP]35 [/SUP]For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? [SUP]37 [/SUP]Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [SUP]38 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luke 14:25-33 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, [SUP]26 [/SUP]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? [SUP]29 [/SUP]Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, [SUP]30 [/SUP]Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? [SUP]32 [/SUP]Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. [SUP]33 [/SUP]So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
True pastors are to be sacrificing, serving examples to the flock to produce the same product as themselves..... servants of Christ..... not "Success in Life" christians.
K
The people of God should respect everyone, especially other Christians. I respect the elders of my church, but I also understand that even though we may have different roles, we are all on the same level, and only Christ is above us. I have had to disagree a time or two with an elder, because I showed him in the bible where he was asking me to disobey God, and I refused, because God is my first authority.
There is no basis in the NT for the single salaried elder/pastor.
Now about hebrews 13:17 the word 'rule' is not in the Greek. So we'll kick that out.
The greek take is 'be persuaded by those that guide you, and yield to their persuasive teaching and example.
Again there is a plurality of elders in a given assembly. Acts 20 and 1Peter 5 tells us that the elders are both overseers and pastors. There is no scriptural support for what we have today, the single, top of the heap, paid professional 'pastor'.
As far as submission goes, we are to submit one unto another so far as the Holy Spirit dwells in each of us. In a word, we submit to the Holy Spirit in one another.
We are also to respect and honor the elders that guide and direct well, especially those who have given themselves over to teaching well.
And we follow only Christ. And follow the biblical example set by elders. That's it.
Now about hebrews 13:17 the word 'rule' is not in the Greek. So we'll kick that out.
The greek take is 'be persuaded by those that guide you, and yield to their persuasive teaching and example.
Again there is a plurality of elders in a given assembly. Acts 20 and 1Peter 5 tells us that the elders are both overseers and pastors. There is no scriptural support for what we have today, the single, top of the heap, paid professional 'pastor'.
As far as submission goes, we are to submit one unto another so far as the Holy Spirit dwells in each of us. In a word, we submit to the Holy Spirit in one another.
We are also to respect and honor the elders that guide and direct well, especially those who have given themselves over to teaching well.
And we follow only Christ. And follow the biblical example set by elders. That's it.
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P
Yet, I have followed you for a long time on these post about pastors, tithes, etc I know where you are coming from on a lot of these issues but it seems to be a pet peeve of yours to always place a negative and stumbling block in the way you express yourself.
It seems to me someone or something has hurt and angered you and if this is the case shame on them. You seem to be a very sincere brother and friend of the Lord. But please if these issues have got you personally raging you need to resolve it.
It seems to me someone or something has hurt and angered you and if this is the case shame on them. You seem to be a very sincere brother and friend of the Lord. But please if these issues have got you personally raging you need to resolve it.
Luke 10:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]"Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.
Luke 10:7 (NRSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house.
1 Corinthians 9:3-18 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, [SUP]4 [/SUP]Have we not power to eat and to drink? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? [SUP]7 [/SUP]Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [SUP]12 [/SUP]If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. [SUP]13[/SUP]Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [SUP]14[/SUP]Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
This says:
1) Those that preach should be taken care of.
2) Those that preach should never abuse their privilege.
3) Those that preach shouldn't charge for service if it hinders their ministry.
I wholeheartedly agree that pastors shouldn't be given extravagant salaries, nor should they allow their congregations to put them on pillars of importance, glory, power, or popularity. This feeds the professional hireling mentality that is in many churches today.
There were times in Paul's ministry that he had to rebuke the people for elevating him & those working with him. Preachers of all positions are responsible to make sure this doesn't happen. They stand before God to give account of allowing others to treat them as or pose as a "professional"
Professionalism is of the world. Servitude to God & man should be the attitude of every preacher, whether they get paid or not. Paul said, V16 (NRSV) "If I proclaim the gospel, this gives me no ground for boasting, for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel!"
[SUP]7 [/SUP]"Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.
Luke 10:7 (NRSV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house.
1 Corinthians 9:3-18 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, [SUP]4 [/SUP]Have we not power to eat and to drink? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? [SUP]7 [/SUP]Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [SUP]10 [/SUP]Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [SUP]12 [/SUP]If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. [SUP]13[/SUP]Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [SUP]14[/SUP]Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
This says:
1) Those that preach should be taken care of.
2) Those that preach should never abuse their privilege.
3) Those that preach shouldn't charge for service if it hinders their ministry.
I wholeheartedly agree that pastors shouldn't be given extravagant salaries, nor should they allow their congregations to put them on pillars of importance, glory, power, or popularity. This feeds the professional hireling mentality that is in many churches today.
There were times in Paul's ministry that he had to rebuke the people for elevating him & those working with him. Preachers of all positions are responsible to make sure this doesn't happen. They stand before God to give account of allowing others to treat them as or pose as a "professional"
Professionalism is of the world. Servitude to God & man should be the attitude of every preacher, whether they get paid or not. Paul said, V16 (NRSV) "If I proclaim the gospel, this gives me no ground for boasting, for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel!"
See 'The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy' to understand why the translators screwed up Hebrews 13:17.
Most translations have it wrong. They turned this one verse into a 'doctrine of demons'. The deeds of the Nicolaitans. Nico: to conquer. Laitans: laity. To make slaves of the folks while reigning on high.
As it is translated, the rights of the Christians are stripped away, not just their wallet but also the opportunity to use their gifts and functions in the assembly. Christ, as Mediator, is replaced by a hierarchy cleric. The 'pastor', so titled, becomes the conduit of all wisdom, knowledge, gifts, and answers, the 'go to' man for the unwashed masses instead of Christ!
That's why some bear the title 'Reverend' which means awesome. How precious is that?
Yes in deed. A doctrine of devils.
Most translations have it wrong. They turned this one verse into a 'doctrine of demons'. The deeds of the Nicolaitans. Nico: to conquer. Laitans: laity. To make slaves of the folks while reigning on high.
As it is translated, the rights of the Christians are stripped away, not just their wallet but also the opportunity to use their gifts and functions in the assembly. Christ, as Mediator, is replaced by a hierarchy cleric. The 'pastor', so titled, becomes the conduit of all wisdom, knowledge, gifts, and answers, the 'go to' man for the unwashed masses instead of Christ!
That's why some bear the title 'Reverend' which means awesome. How precious is that?
Yes in deed. A doctrine of devils.
1 Peter 5:1-5
1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
P
Well yet it seems to me the Lord has put you on a mission. I do feel the passion in your words to right this wrong and with that I ask for God's speed in these matters.
I do know for a fact that at my fellowship my pastor has preached against such things as exalting him or any laymen in church above any other.
I've seen first hand that if someone feels they have a calling to serve the body of christ they are given a broom or mop to start serving.
I've seen my pastor pray for more hours in the day rather than more dollars in the pay.
I do know that the congregation votes on where any extra money will be spent after the needs of all the saints are ment, and that does mean all.
Our missionaries are self sponsored or we are asked if the Lord has prompted to help Sponcer.
We do not pass the basket at all but it is located in the back of the sanctuary.
All ideas to further the gospel is presented to the congregation for prayer and a vote.
And a full disclosure is offered to anyone that asks. We have bible studies throughout the week and 6 services on the week end with 4 of them being on Sunday.
This is what I've come to know that church is and this is only the tip of the iceberg.
I do know that my pastor worked as a tradesmen for many years and held part time jobs as his calling demanded more of his time.
I ment my pastor for the first time raking leaves outside the main entrance of the church with fogged up glasses and a bit of a runny nose, he introduced himself with his first name and asked my wife and I to have a blessed day. To find him behind the pulpit 20 minutes latter was a shock for sure.
I do know for a fact that at my fellowship my pastor has preached against such things as exalting him or any laymen in church above any other.
I've seen first hand that if someone feels they have a calling to serve the body of christ they are given a broom or mop to start serving.
I've seen my pastor pray for more hours in the day rather than more dollars in the pay.
I do know that the congregation votes on where any extra money will be spent after the needs of all the saints are ment, and that does mean all.
Our missionaries are self sponsored or we are asked if the Lord has prompted to help Sponcer.
We do not pass the basket at all but it is located in the back of the sanctuary.
All ideas to further the gospel is presented to the congregation for prayer and a vote.
And a full disclosure is offered to anyone that asks. We have bible studies throughout the week and 6 services on the week end with 4 of them being on Sunday.
This is what I've come to know that church is and this is only the tip of the iceberg.
I do know that my pastor worked as a tradesmen for many years and held part time jobs as his calling demanded more of his time.
I ment my pastor for the first time raking leaves outside the main entrance of the church with fogged up glasses and a bit of a runny nose, he introduced himself with his first name and asked my wife and I to have a blessed day. To find him behind the pulpit 20 minutes latter was a shock for sure.
P
Amen to that oldthennew that's why it is hard for me to wrap my head around some of these post.
But we know are adversary likes nothing better than to corrupt the house of the Lord if and where he can. We must be diligent to see that this is stopped and exposed but more tackful in our approach.
Blessings to you and yours brother for your kind response.
But we know are adversary likes nothing better than to corrupt the house of the Lord if and where he can. We must be diligent to see that this is stopped and exposed but more tackful in our approach.
Blessings to you and yours brother for your kind response.
A man cannot serve both money and God. A hireling is one who ministers for pay, a set salary. Not in bible.
The itenerent preacher could accept what is freely given. But it must be the givers idea, not the minister. The apostles were traveling preachers. Jesus told them not to charge, 'freely you received, freely give' was Christ's command to them.
They were to eat what was set before them. Again the givers had to offer, not the ministers pulling for bucks. God would take care of them. But you ask 'well Yet, how will they survive without pulling for buckie boo?' Have you ever heard of a little thing called 'faith'?
Wow! Faith. Trusting God, not charging, not demanding, promising or threatening. What novel concepts for the true ministers of God. They're pretty much gone now. Like the buffalo! No faith at all I guess on the part of these awesome orators. Thank God that they at least teach faith ........to you and me!?
Paul did speak to the folks that the ball was in their camp. That they need to step up to the plate and support the traveling preachers. Wasn't talking about himself but others like him. He steered away from 'taking anything' for ministry rendered. Though he did occasionally accept it being an apostle, he had the right. But he worked a day job to support himself and others with him.
Now it seems that most Christians look at the verses that speak to the support of the itenerent preachers and say 'See!! The pastor needs a salary!' Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! You're missing it again. Legal support was for the itenerent preacher, the traveling preacher, the evangelist, the apostle, and yes the missionary.
NOT some guy in the local body that's tired of his job, so he quits and tells everyone else that God called him to 'lord it over His heritage' as the Gentiles do in Matt. 20. And tells everyone that God told him to take tithes and offerings from the people so he doesn't have to work, which is contrary to Acts 20 where Paul tells the pastors to work secular jobs.
Check out the verses I put forth. See all my threads. I don't just throw out ideas, like they do on this site. I actually use the bible.
Most r having a hard time wrapping their heads around the scriptures because they never heard these scriptures taught from the exalted pulpit before. If these truths ever got out, there'd be many a man and woman that have put the title of pastor in front of their names (Jesus condemned the use of religious titles in Matt.23. See, I use scripture, novel huh?) standing in line at the unemployment office for they'd be out of a job, so called.
Most christians on this site, and I say every where, refuse to look at the word of God on this. Scared witless that their little church world would fall apart before their very eyes, so bringing their little gathering under the microscope of scrutiny with the word of God can be very uncomfortable, very heart rendering. No one likes being painted into a corner with sound doctrine. Even Paul was hated by the ecclesias in Asia for correcting them with the word. That pesky word of God. Dag nabbit all anyhow!!
But things are not the same. It's worse. We have the written word and it is totally disregarded, trashed, as it were, on these issues.
And your suspicion is correct. I have few friends. I sleep in a cave. (Where's Elijah when you need him.) smile. Be free of religion. Be blessed!
The itenerent preacher could accept what is freely given. But it must be the givers idea, not the minister. The apostles were traveling preachers. Jesus told them not to charge, 'freely you received, freely give' was Christ's command to them.
They were to eat what was set before them. Again the givers had to offer, not the ministers pulling for bucks. God would take care of them. But you ask 'well Yet, how will they survive without pulling for buckie boo?' Have you ever heard of a little thing called 'faith'?
Wow! Faith. Trusting God, not charging, not demanding, promising or threatening. What novel concepts for the true ministers of God. They're pretty much gone now. Like the buffalo! No faith at all I guess on the part of these awesome orators. Thank God that they at least teach faith ........to you and me!?
Paul did speak to the folks that the ball was in their camp. That they need to step up to the plate and support the traveling preachers. Wasn't talking about himself but others like him. He steered away from 'taking anything' for ministry rendered. Though he did occasionally accept it being an apostle, he had the right. But he worked a day job to support himself and others with him.
Now it seems that most Christians look at the verses that speak to the support of the itenerent preachers and say 'See!! The pastor needs a salary!' Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! You're missing it again. Legal support was for the itenerent preacher, the traveling preacher, the evangelist, the apostle, and yes the missionary.
NOT some guy in the local body that's tired of his job, so he quits and tells everyone else that God called him to 'lord it over His heritage' as the Gentiles do in Matt. 20. And tells everyone that God told him to take tithes and offerings from the people so he doesn't have to work, which is contrary to Acts 20 where Paul tells the pastors to work secular jobs.
Check out the verses I put forth. See all my threads. I don't just throw out ideas, like they do on this site. I actually use the bible.
Most r having a hard time wrapping their heads around the scriptures because they never heard these scriptures taught from the exalted pulpit before. If these truths ever got out, there'd be many a man and woman that have put the title of pastor in front of their names (Jesus condemned the use of religious titles in Matt.23. See, I use scripture, novel huh?) standing in line at the unemployment office for they'd be out of a job, so called.
Most christians on this site, and I say every where, refuse to look at the word of God on this. Scared witless that their little church world would fall apart before their very eyes, so bringing their little gathering under the microscope of scrutiny with the word of God can be very uncomfortable, very heart rendering. No one likes being painted into a corner with sound doctrine. Even Paul was hated by the ecclesias in Asia for correcting them with the word. That pesky word of God. Dag nabbit all anyhow!!
But things are not the same. It's worse. We have the written word and it is totally disregarded, trashed, as it were, on these issues.
And your suspicion is correct. I have few friends. I sleep in a cave. (Where's Elijah when you need him.) smile. Be free of religion. Be blessed!
Seems many are not looking at this as a Pastor after God's heart but from a view of some kid of usury. A Pastor seeking after God will make his best effort to lead them in the direction of obedience to God via the Holy Spirit. If any person has shown themselves to be a follower of Jesus why would you not submit to their teachings and place yourself under the authority given to them by God. We submit to our bosses at work because we want a paycheck at the end of the week, so then what more should we do for a servant of our Lord Jesus.
We are indeed to submit to sound teaching. However, we are not to submit to one who 'lords it over His heritage'.
Matt.20 Jesus made it clear that the gentile world had its pyramid, top down authorities, but He said to his own 'it shall not be so among you'.
God has not given to any man authority to perch themselves above others. In Matt. 23 Jesus said that if anyone exalts himself, like Diotrephes did in 3John, in this instance with a religious title, that God would humble them. Bring them down.
Thats the spirit of antichrist, to take the place of Christ as head. Isaiah 14. Lucifer exalted himself above the congregation and ever since he does the same through self exalted teachers/preachers and pastors that exalt themselves above the congregation.
That's not the humble servant that Christ set as an example. He came lowly, washing feet ...without charging cash.
Interesting how the only one that God told to lift themselves up and demand tithes is the pastor. God didn't tell anybody else about it.
Matt.20 Jesus made it clear that the gentile world had its pyramid, top down authorities, but He said to his own 'it shall not be so among you'.
God has not given to any man authority to perch themselves above others. In Matt. 23 Jesus said that if anyone exalts himself, like Diotrephes did in 3John, in this instance with a religious title, that God would humble them. Bring them down.
Thats the spirit of antichrist, to take the place of Christ as head. Isaiah 14. Lucifer exalted himself above the congregation and ever since he does the same through self exalted teachers/preachers and pastors that exalt themselves above the congregation.
That's not the humble servant that Christ set as an example. He came lowly, washing feet ...without charging cash.
Interesting how the only one that God told to lift themselves up and demand tithes is the pastor. God didn't tell anybody else about it.
M
Jesus showed us how the leaders in the church would humble themselves and wash the feet of the ones they wanted to guide ...That the least would be the greatest ...much of what we see even in protestant circles is just ego and pride and folks trying to earn a living off the work of others. Each week they give some half baked sermon that really teaches no one anything except how to quote a few verses out of context...no sound doctrine ..no power in the Holy Spirit