Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[james57]

First of all, I keep quoting this scripture and its very PLAIN,



But NOT CONTINUING TO SIN does not mean that we have not committed any sins before. We have all sinned. As it is even written,



What it really means to have the Spirit is to STOP SINNING. Its not say you HAVENT SINNED IN THE PAST, WE ALL HAVE. BUT NOW WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO STOP SINNING. As even Jesus said,



And also,



But how can one be PERFECT, and NOT SIN ANYMORE? By the power of the spirit! What do you think repent means? Its written all over scripture, repent! Repent means stop sinning!

I told you what 1 john 3:9 says
In you new nature you do not sin, but in your flesh you do

But if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness rom8:10

So you believe a person without the power of the holy spirit in their life can achieve sinless perfection
I can assure you, try as hard ad you might, you will never achieve such a state

 

[cgaviria]

No. No, you didn't. This is what you wrote:

Because it indicates that although these things did precede the founding of the heaven and earth, that they were indeed created as well in the beginning, but before the founding of the heaven and earth..... what things? The Spirit, the water, and the speech (the Word, aka Jesus). The father is the only entity that has no beginning. He has always existed.

The simple truth is that Father, Son and Spirit have always existed and have no beginning or end.

Show me a verse saying that Jesus has always existed. SHOW ME. I challenge you, it doesn't exist. Yes he did exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and in fact he spoke it into existence, but water also existed before the creation of the heaven and earth.... it doesn't indicate that it has always existed. You have your own theology on things that were taught to you and you just cant let go.

 

[gotime]

There are only three heavens.

The bible actually tells us what they are, Paul calls the third heaven Paradise.

Now tell me this, Out of the three,

Atmosphere
Space
and the heavens where God is.

which one do you think is the third and wold be called paradise?

It is clearly the place God resides.

Jesus was not telling the thief today I promise you will be in the sky or in space therefore there is one option left and that is the presence of God.

 

[james57]

Not really, Paul calls the third heaven paradise. they are one and the same.

The thief aspect of your argument is based on a false premise.

You think the thief went to paradise that day and I know why you think that. because that is what it seems to say. however it does not. Jesus himself did not go to paradise that day and all indications are that paradise is the third heaven not the grave where Jesus was. I think this is getting into another error of what happens when a person dies.

The reality is that Jesus promised him that day but he did not go that day. As seen in the fact that Jesus himself did not go till a few days later.

The real issue is what is paradise once we know that we can better decide what was meant. Paul calls paradise the third heaven. This is common language for His time in reference to the dwelling place of God. as apposed to the atmosphere heaven and the space heaven.

Jesus told the thief on the cross
Today you will be with me in paradise
Jesus told nicodemus
No one has ever entered heaven except the one who came from heaven, the son of man
If you have scripture that states anyone who died in the OT went to dwell with God in heaven i will continue this discussion with you. But theological extrapolation of scripture to overturn the plainly written word I will not continue to debate

 

[Tintin]

Show me a verse saying that Jesus has always existed. SHOW ME. I challenge you, it doesn't exist. Yes he did exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and in fact he spoke it into existence, but water also existed before the creation of the heaven and earth.... it doesn't indicate that it has always existed. You have your own theology on things that were taught to you and you just cant let go.

It's all throughout the Bible, bucko. In the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Jesus told the thief on the cross:
Today you will be with me in paradise. He did not mean heaven.
Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth, not heaven and on the third day he would be raised to life
He also told Mary after he rose from the dead
Do not touch me, for I have not yet returned to the father(in heaven)
Therefore, you have proved by stating Paul was taken up to paradise( the third heaven) he was not taken to heaven where God dwelt

I agree with you on this James57, as this is my understanding as well. The paradise that Jesus was speaking of was the same place that father Abraham and Lazarus were, across from the rich who was in Hades, which was/is in the heart of the earth. But, in regards to Paul, I do believe that he was caught up to the third heaven, for he says "was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. So, the fact that he was "caught up" would demonstrate that Paul did not go down into the earth, but up into heaven, which is another place of paradise, the ultimate paradise. Also, I doubt that Paul would see inexpressible things that are not permitted to tell in the heart of the earth. As far as whether or not God was/is in the third heaven, it just doesn't give us those details.

 

[gotime]

Show me a verse saying that Jesus has always existed. SHOW ME. I challenge you, it doesn't exist. Yes he did exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and in fact he spoke it into existence, but water also existed before the creation of the heaven and earth.... it doesn't indicate that it has always existed. You have your own theology on things that were taught to you and you just cant let go.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Paul is likening Melchisedec as a type for the true or anti type Christ.

Was Melchisedec the true king of righteousness? no but that is what his title was but for Christ he is actually the king of righteousness.

Was Melchisedec the true king of peace? no For him it was a title of the place he was king, but for Christ he actually is the king of peace.

notice type meets anti-type. Or figure meets reality.

lets continue in the same fashion:

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Was Melchisedec really without father or mother? no He was born of someone but there is no record but Christ really is without father of mother. now this one is interesting because we know that He speaks of His Father after he stepped down and became a servant. So this must apply to Him before he humbled himself.



Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Was Melchisedec without descent? no but Christ is literally without descent before his humbling.

Did Melchisedec not have a beginning or end, No all men died but Christ is without beginning he always was. In this he was made like the Son of God.

 

[gotime]

YHWH is the name of God which basically means I am. For god always is no matter where you go in time. So YHWH says of himself:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John directing the people to this said:

Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Speaking of Jesus. Thus anyone who knew the Old Testament Scripture would come to the realization that Jesus is YHWY who spoke to Zechariah.

Paul said:

Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Yet the scripture that he is using is:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

YHWY said this and Paul says they shall bow before Jesus. They are the same.

For Jesus said:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The Old tesatment teaches that The Lord God YHWY led Israel ye Paul said:

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Show me a verse saying that Jesus has always existed. SHOW ME. I challenge you, it doesn't exist. Yes he did exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and in fact he spoke it into existence, but water also existed before the creation of the heaven and earth.... it doesn't indicate that it has always existed. You have your own theology on things that were taught to you and you just cant let go.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Only God incarnate could make such a statement.

Not believing that Christ is God and that he is a created being, is one of those issues that will keep one out of eternal life.

 

[james57]

I agree with you on this James57, as this is my understanding as well. The paradise that Jesus was speaking of was the same place that father Abraham and Lazarus were, across from the rich who was in Hades, which was/is in the heart of the earth. But, in regards to Paul, I do believe that he was caught up to the third heaven, for he says "was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. So, the fact that he was "caught up" would demonstrate that Paul did not go down into the earth, but up into heaven, which is another place of paradise, the ultimate paradise. Also, I doubt that Paul would see inexpressible things that are not permitted to tell in the heart of the earth. As far as whether or not God was/is in the third heaven, it just doesn't give us those details.

Yes it makes sense there is more than one place referred to as paradise. But by the same token, is there not more than one place referred to as heaven?
The bible says Elijah was taken to heaven. Yet Jesus said no one had ever entered heaven apart from he. So that would show us there is more than one place referred to as heaven in my view

 

[breno785au]

Yes it makes sense there is more than one place referred to as paradise. But by the same token, is there not more than one place referred to as heaven?
The bible says Elijah was taken to heaven. Yet Jesus said no one had ever entered heaven apart from he. So that would show us there is more than one place referred to as heaven in my view

Elijah an Enoch were TAKEN to heaven, Jesus ROSE into heaven, that's the difference.

 

[cgaviria]

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Paul is likening Melchisedec as a type for the true or anti type Christ.

Was Melchisedec the true king of righteousness? no but that is what his title was but for Christ he is actually the king of righteousness.

Was Melchisedec the true king of peace? no For him it was a title of the place he was king, but for Christ he actually is the king of peace.

notice type meets anti-type. Or figure meets reality.

lets continue in the same fashion:

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Was Melchisedec really without father or mother? no He was born of someone but there is no record but Christ really is without father of mother. now this one is interesting because we know that He speaks of His Father after he stepped down and became a servant. So this must apply to Him before he humbled himself.



Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Was Melchisedec without descent? no but Christ is literally without descent before his humbling.

Did Melchisedec not have a beginning or end, No all men died but Christ is without beginning he always was. In this he was made like the Son of God.

This does not indicate that Jesus has always existed. Because even in reading we see "without descent", meaning "unkown genealogy" as it is rendered more clearly in a different translation:

fatherless, motherless, of unknown genealogy, neither beginning of days, nor [*3*of life *2*an end *1*having], and taking an exact image to the son of God, abides a priest for perpetuity. (Hebrews 7:3 [ABP])

We know Jesus has a genealogy, read Matthew 1, it lists his genealogy. So if what you were saying is true, then the scripture would be broken, because Jesus does have a genealogy. Yet we also know Melchisedek was not immortal, so end of days could not have literally applied, since no human is immortal, and even in this scripture saying that Melchisedek had no beginning of days, how could this have been literally true that he wasnt born? it wasnt saying that he literally had no beginning of days or end of days, it was saying that there are no records or traces of how he came to be. Jesus came in the order of Melchisedek not because we dont know his lineage, we do know it actually, but because he came to establish TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, that came from that order, AND THEN endless life as it is even said,

to whom also [*3*a tenth *4*of *5*all *2*portioned *1*Abraham], first indeed being translated king of righteousness, and thereupon also king of Salem, which is king of peace; (Hebrews 7:2 [ABP])

who not according to the law [*2*commandment *1*of fleshly] exists, but according to the power [*2*life *1*of an indissoluble]. (Hebrews 7:16 [ABP])

Indissoluble life is endless life. Meaning immortality now brought on by Jesus Christ. And also we read on further,

[18] [*3*an annulment *2*indeed *1*For *6*takes place *5*before *4*of the commandment] because of its weak and unprofitable state; [19] [*5*nothing *1*for *4*perfected *2*the *3*law], but there is the further introduction of a better hope through which we approach to God.
(Hebrews 7:18-19 [ABP])

What is the better hope? A True righteousness through Jesus Christ empowered by the Spirit. Because even before this verse we see indicated that the Law was never able to perfect anyone. Why? Because it was never able to allow people to stop sinning, it didnt have the power to do so.

This scripture therefore does not indicate what you are saying that Jesus has always existed.

 

[james57]

Elijah an Enoch were TAKEN to heaven, Jesus ROSE into heaven, that's the difference.

The bible does not sat Enoch was taken to heaven
And Jesus said
NO ONE but he had ever ENTERED heaven
Therefore as the bible says Elijah was taken to heaven there must be more than one place referred to as heaven in the bible

 

[wolfwint]

Show me a verse saying that Jesus has always existed. SHOW ME. I challenge you, it doesn't exist. Yes he did exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, and in fact he spoke it into existence, but water also existed before the creation of the heaven and earth.... it doesn't indicate that it has always existed. You have your own theology on things that were taught to you and you just cant let go.

well a qustion to you. Is Jesus Christ God?

 

[VioletReigns]

This individual has dominated 8 pages so far with his "conclusive" beliefs? Wow....

In the wise words of Jack Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets"....

[video=youtube;xsZPWsVNTqo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsZPWsVNTqo[/video]


Bye.

 

[49]

I'm not going to argue with you. If you can give me a verse of scripture that says anyone in ot times went to dwell with God in THE heaven I will continue, otherwise I wont.
I have given you the plain words of Jesus it is up to you if you accept them or not
If Jesus met OT saints you can say he came from heaven to meet the and then returned to heaven. But there is no need to even theologise that far. He mads a plain statement. I accept it

Where did Enoch go? Genesis 5:24 reads "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him".

 

[cgaviria]

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Only God incarnate could make such a statement.

Not believing that Christ is God and that he is a created being, is one of those issues that will keep one out of eternal life.

By Jesus affirming that he is the beginning he is affirming that he was created, how do you not see this? If he had always existed he wouldn't say that he was the beginning, but rather, I have always been. He is the beginning because he was the first thing that was made before all other things were made. HE IS THE BEGINNING. MEANING WHAT?? HE BEGAN. How do you not see this? I gave you the examples of Genesis showing what things existed before the creation of the heaven and earth. Spirit, Water, and Speech. These things existed before the creation of the heaven and earth, but it doesnt indicate that they always existed. The Speech is the beginning of the creation of all things in heaven and earth, because the heaven and earth were established after the first utterance, Let there be light!

 

[james57]

Where did Enoch go? Genesis 5:24 reads "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him".

You tell me! Do you believe he entered into THE heaven to dwell with God?
If you do, you must dismiss Jesus words to nicodemus as being untrue

 

[gotime]

This does not indicate that Jesus has always existed. Because even in reading we see "without descent", meaning "unkown genealogy" as it is rendered more clearly in a different translation:



We know Jesus has a genealogy, read Matthew 1, it lists his genealogy. So if what you were saying is true, then the scripture would be broken, because Jesus does have a genealogy. Yet we also know Melchisedek was not immortal, so end of days could not have literally applied, since no human is immortal, and even in this scripture saying that Melchisedek had no beginning of days, how could this have been literally true that he wasnt born? it wasnt saying that he literally had no beginning of days or end of days, it was saying that there are no records or traces of how he came to be. Jesus came in the order of Melchisedek not because we dont know his lineage, we do know it actually, but because he came to establish TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS, that came from that order, AND THEN endless life as it is even said,





Indissoluble life is endless life. Meaning immortality now brought on by Jesus Christ. And also we read on further,



What is the better hope? A True righteousness through Jesus Christ empowered by the Spirit. Because even before this verse we see indicated that the Law was never able to perfect anyone. Why? Because it was never able to allow people to stop sinning, it didnt have the power to do so.

This scripture therefore does not indicate what you are saying that Jesus has always existed.

I think you missed the whole point of my post.

 

[gotime]

You tell me! Do you believe he entered into THE heaven to dwell with God?
If you do, you must dismiss Jesus words to nicodemus as being untrue

That is not true. I think it is your rendering of what Jesus said to Nicodemus that makes the problem. But as I demonstrated earlier this is not the case.