Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[posthuman]

take Aristotle's definition.

He is "the argument" of God in rhetorical speech.

so was there a time when God had no logical cognitive framework, no "idea" or principled stance from which to reason? and then a little light bulb appeared over His head, and *poof* Jesus existed? not long after, God opened His mouth and out came the heavens and the earth (except of course for water, which pre-dates creation? lol)

sorry if that came out sounding crass.

what i mean to say, is that what John is telling us in the first chapter of his gospel is Christ is the purpose of God in His communication with mankind; the viewpoint and thought and argument of the mind of God, revealed to us in the person of Jesus, His Messiah. what is read in English as "the word" has a far deeper meaning than 21st century language confers. He is the will and reason of the Father - and it's in that sense that He is the Son - and the only begotten - of God, and is no more a created thing than the ideas and notions and premises and ethos of you or i are -- our pattern of thought and structure of logical discourse aren't things that don't exist before we form them with words, and they aren't separate from us - they are part of who we are, and are expressions of who we are. in the same way, Jesus the Christ is the expression of God's conversation toward us in the form of a man, a 33 year life, a sacrifice, and a resurrection. the image of the invisible God dwells in Him fully - and He and the Father are One.

this is how i'm given to understand -- not that i've been taught this by any man, but by praying for understanding; praying that God would teach me how to say His name, and show me who He is.

hope it makes sense - whether you agree or not - and that you just think about that for a while. i've got to go to bed now; it is nice talking to you and thinking about this. hope we can all keep talking without quarreling, but seeking out the Truth first of all.

 

[james57]

Are you up for considering why GOD wanted the body of Moses?

Not at this time of night lol. Its later in the UK than it is in the states!

But as I told Gotime, I will discuss the subject if scripture can be brought forth that states people went to dwell with God in heaven in OT times, I have to be consistent. Besides I cant theologise as you can, I'm a simple chap!

 

[Tintin]

Are you up for considering why GOD wanted the body of Moses?

Ooh, I'm interested in what you have to share.

 

[cgaviria]

And I am warning you as well, for by believing and teaching that Christ is a created being you believe in a different Lord and a different gospel. That is really amazing, you say, if I believe that Jesus Christ is God, as in having no beginning and no ending, all mighty and Sovereign, then I will not be saved. But you think that by you believing that Christ is a created God that you have salvation. You are nothing but another false teacher who doesn't know that he is a false teacher. And you will be held accountable for teaching these things, that is, unless you repent and believe in the true God, Jesus Christ, who is not a created being, but is God Almighty.

This is similar to trying to convince a preterist or amillennialis.

You have an error in your doctrine, and its a serious doctrine. Why? Because it takes away the glory of the Father, who has no beginning. But regardless of that, its clear that neither one of us will change his opinion, as it is written,

If a wise man goes to court with a fool, there will be ranting and raving but no resolution. (Proverbs 29:9)

You are stiff necked and a hard head and all you have is your own logic and own perception and own teachings that were taught to you and have brought forward not one scripture to refute what I have said.

 

[wolfwint]

i agree with you Ahwatukee, it seems in this thread we will repeat the concil of nicea, around 1700 years ago. Where they come to the conclusion that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal, real and equal!
To say that Jesus Christ is not God is heresy!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ooh, I'm interested in what you have to share.

I'm simply wondering myself. Why would GOD dispute with the devil over Moses' body if he didn't intend to resurrect it and take him to heaven? We know Moses is alive because he was with Christ on the mount. At least I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Moses was an exceptional man.

And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speakes unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. Exodus 33:11​

 

[cgaviria]

i agree with you Ahwatukee, it seems in this thread we will repeat the concil of nicea, around 1700 years ago. Where they come to the conclusion that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal, real and equal!
To say that Jesus Christ is not God is heresy!

How many times are we going to go through this circular reasoning? Did I ever say Jesus isn't God? The only thing I have said, is that Jesus began, as it is said, he is the beginning. This is scriptural teaching. His beginning does not take away him being God, he has been made God by the Father, who has subjected all things under him. This is how it is, and like I said in a previous post, if you do not understand and believe this you will not be saved. You have your own false interpretation of scripture.

 

[cgaviria]

sorry if that came out sounding crass.

what i mean to say, is that what John is telling us in the first chapter of his gospel is Christ is the purpose of God in His communication with mankind; the viewpoint and thought and argument of the mind of God, revealed to us in the person of Jesus, His Messiah. what is read in English as "the word" has a far deeper meaning than 21st century language confers. He is the will and reason of the Father - and it's in that sense that He is the Son - and the only begotten - of God, and is no more a created thing than the ideas and notions and premises and ethos of you or i are -- our pattern of thought and structure of logical discourse aren't things that don't exist before we form them with words, and they aren't separate from us - they are part of who we are, and are expressions of who we are. in the same way, Jesus the Christ is the expression of God's conversation toward us in the form of a man, a 33 year life, a sacrifice, and a resurrection. the image of the invisible God dwells in Him fully - and He and the Father are One.

this is how i'm given to understand -- not that i've been taught this by any man, but by praying for understanding; praying that God would teach me how to say His name, and show me who He is.

hope it makes sense - whether you agree or not - and that you just think about that for a while. i've got to go to bed now; it is nice talking to you and thinking about this. hope we can all keep talking without quarreling, but seeking out the Truth first of all.

I appreciate your lightness in discussing this with me because I do not wish to quarrel either. However, I will say this, there is an error in assuming word means mind because Jesus is not the mind of God, he has the mind of God. Two different things. It is even written,

And having removed him, he raised up to them David for king, to whom also [*2*he said *1*having borne witness], I found David the one of Jesse, a man according to my heart, which shall do all my wants. (Acts 13:22 [ABP])

What is the heart? it is the mind. Jesus Christ is a man after they very own mind of God. Theres a difference! And even so, in the beginning, the Word spoke. It didnt speak of itself, that is, because it has its own mind, but rather, it spoke because the Father willed it to speak and willed it to say what the Father wanted it to say.

 

[fredoheaven]

His beginning does not take away him being God, he has been made God by the Father, who has subjected all things under him. This is how it is, and like I said in a previous post, if you do not understand and believe this you will not be saved. You have your own false interpretation of scripture.

Hi,

Am also new to this site. Been here since Nov. 18, 2015, a few days ahead of you but I know you already posted much to the seeming endless debates by others with you. You already stated your statement of faith or belief right from the start and this is I also firmly believe that debate with you seems useless. You already made up your mind. Clear as I have been following your posts sounds in contradictory with the scriptures. Examples to that is you have a problem with the word "firstborn" to mean "first created". Here is a take for you to chew upon.
When someone told you to pick an "eggplant". What will you pick?
a. an egg and a backyard plant
b. an egg
c. a plant
d. eggplant

Seem ridiculous,but this is actually you infer.

Your statement which I indicated in bold letters above is also in contradictory to what the scripture says. Can God the Father make another God? Insisting that Jesus has been made by the Father to be God, a created God is simply a form of Idolatry which God hated. Can God give his glory to another?

peace,

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.

Regarding Christ being a created God, Scripture states the following:

"You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior." (Isa.43:10)

The scripture above is perfectly clear, that there was no god formed before God and there will be no god formed after God and there is no other savior. That it is said that there was no god formed before God, destroys the idea that Jesus was created as God during any time in existence, but is himself God, being one with the Father. The Lord our God is One God.

cgaviria, I pray that you will not continue to distort and circumvent scripture, but I say to you, repent and believe in the true Lord and eternal God, Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father!

 

[gotime]

You're very confused. You made a statement that somehow this scripture proves that Jesus had no beginning of days. I just completely disproved your logic and threw it out of the water completely. Read what I said, read it 7 times and maybe you will understand. This scripture is VERY clear in indicating the true righteousness and endless life that the order of melchizedek is a type of, not what you're saying. Read the scripture VERY CAREFULLY.

Your reply very clearly showed that you did not understand my position. Now that could be because you misread it or maybe I did not explain myself clearly enough. either way I told you you missed the point of my post.

You instead of trying to understand what you missed in my point said the above which smells of closed mindedness to me. So I will stop here as you are clearly not listening nor do you care to listen.

If you had God my point you would see that your reply totally misses my point. anyway such as life, I won't wast my time any longer.

Have fun.

 

[gotime]

I told you I would continue this discussion with you if you could produce scripture that states anyone who died in OT tines went to dwell with God in heaven.
Jesus words in john 3;13 are perfectly in line with Paul stating Jesus was the first to rise from the dead so in everything he had the supremacy. Obviously he was meaning the first to be raised never to die again
If you have scripture that plainly refutes this please bring it forth, but not theological extrapolation of scripture to overturn the plainly written word

Fair call I will drop this then as it is futile to even continue speaking about it. I have a different view on that scripture than you and I find yours to be inaccurate as I am sure you do mine. So if we can't move on from there I will stop.

 

[gotime]

Go time
. My understanding is the sda believe when you die you are dead until the resurrection of the dead takes place. Is that not true, have I been misinformed?

That is correct.

 

[james57]

That is correct.

So why don't you believe official sda doctrine?

 

[wolfwint]

How many times are we going to go through this circular reasoning? Did I ever say Jesus isn't God? The only thing I have said, is that Jesus began, as it is said, he is the beginning. This is scriptural teaching. His beginning does not take away him being God, he has been made God by the Father, who has subjected all things under him. This is how it is, and like I said in a previous post, if you do not understand and believe this you will not be saved. You have your own false interpretation of scripture.

well, to believe that Jesus was real man and is God son, who is equal with God father takes no glory away. Jesus saved me through his blood and forgave my sins. And he gave me the Holy Spirit.
Do you think that Arius and also Jehova witness are right in their doctrine about Jesus?

 

[james57]

Fair call I will drop this then as it is futile to even continue speaking about it. I have a different view on that scripture than you and I find yours to be inaccurate as I am sure you do mine. So if we can't move on from there I will stop.

It isn't just about different views though is it. It is about the plain words of scripture as opposed to theological extrapolations of scripture which lead to contradiction of the plainly written words. I repeat, if you had plain scripture such as the following that states in OT times people went to dwell with God in Heaven, obviously I could not then make the comment I just have:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive
But each IN HIS OWN TURN. Christ the firstfruits, then when he comes those who belong to him
1cor15:20-23

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead so that in everything he may have the supremacy col1:18

No one has ever entered heaven except the one who is from heaven, the son of man
John 3:13

 

[DP]

Hi, here's where we differ in case you want to know. The ones I did not respond to means I completely agree:

2. I believe in predestination, God chooses and God preordains. It is a clear teaching of scripture. We do what we do because he has already determined what we will do from the very beginning.

I believe one can take that too far, though I agree that predestination is found in God's Word. I don't believe every act or deed is predestinated, i.e., like fate. That would mean a wicked person doesn't really have a chance to change and believe. God didn't create us like robots, He gave us free will to choose, and that's about the majority in the world. Some servants are chosen because He already owns them (John 17), and He can bend their will to do His work. That's not everybody though.

3. I believe in the literal power of the Holy Spirit. When receiving the Holy Spirit there is clear evidence of having it, such as speaking on different languages, and healings, and miracles.

That's not quite true. The Holy Spirit is meted out to Christ's Church according to the administrations Apostle Paul covered. The idea of tongues means known languages of the world, as that's what the Apostles spoke on Pentecost via The Holy Spirit. The gift of teaching is also one of the gifts of The Holy Spirit that Paul mentioned. So none of the "if you don't speak in an unknown tongue then you don't have The Holy Spirit" stuff please.

4. I believe that in receiving the Holy Spirit we are then born of God, and that our mind is literally changed to be able to follow the commandments of God. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit, you sin no more, as it is impossible to do so.

I totally disagree about the sin part. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher only IF... we listen to Him. While we are still here in this flesh we are subject to a constant battle between our flesh and our spirit (Rom.7). And because the Scriptures has concluded ALL under sin so Salvation could be by Faith to those who believe (Gal.3:22), that means there was only ONE Who was able to live a sinless life in the flesh of this world, that being our Lord Jesus Christ. It does not mean we have in a license to sin by being in Christ. It means we have forgiveness of Him when we repent to Him and ask Him when we slip up and sin (1 John 1).

5. I believe the whore of Babylon is the Vatican and its church, and has corrupted the entire world with false teachings, and that most of christianity that exists in the world still has many of the teachings that were created by the roman catholic church. I believe the vatican will be destroyed first at some point in the future, by 10 entities that are yet to reveal themselves to us, before the coming of the Lord.

Though I am not a Catholic, the Vatican and its church is NOT the Babylon Harlot of Revelation. The Babylon Harlot has not manifested yet today, for that event is specifically for the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's second coming. It will manifest only during the coming "great tribulation" time our Lord Jesus taught. There's probably not any other Christian Church on earth throughout history that has been hated most by the devil and his servants than the Catholic church. Our true enemies are the "synagogue of Satan" that our Lord Jesus mentioned in the Rev.2 & 3 Scripture, which is about Jews that say they are Jews, but lie, and are not, but instead are the "synagogue of Satan." If you would listen to The Holy Spirit then you would discover that matter within God's Word, for it is well written of.

6. I believe America to be the beast of the earth, the false prophet, spreading its form of government unto the world, as in spreading its democratic form of government unto many other nations, and that this form of government first originated in the Roman empire, which is also the first beast, the beast of the sea, which is now reviving in the european union as its own entity, and shares this same form of government. I believe the "image of the beast" to be other smaller nations taking on this same form of government, as in other smaller democracies. This is clearly evident in the characteristic of the US to spread its form of government unto other nations, and as of late there have been public CIA releases showing the US government's involvement in the coupe of many nations and setting up puppet democracies. I'm not a "conspiracist", as I dont think the leaders in our government are aware that they are fulfilling prophecy, they are just blindly spreading a way of life and a way of government that is evil in the eyes of God, as it concerns the things of man and not the things of God.

Why stop at America? Someone who begins calling America the beast of Revelation while bypassing truly cruel Communist nations like North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Russia, China, Cuba, etc., that have been responsible for murder of millions of their own people reveal they don't have a clue about these kind of matters. You might want to do some more reading before you show your ignorance on such things.

The U.S. is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic, which is different than a Democracy. Ancient Greece was a Democracy, and it failed. If you're a U.S. citizen, how could you not know this? (I'm starting to doubt the honesty of your post.)

This might be blunt, but I'll lay it out for you. The American people still as a majority trust in the nation which the original founders created through God's Hand. We believe the U.S. Constitution is the law of the land still, and should be honored and recognized by all American citizens, especially those who serve in a public office which they are required to take an oath to defend that same U.S. Constitution. The problem is with false servants over our nation that lie, and have no intention of defending the U.S. Constitution, but instead are out to destroy it and this nation, and its people. Many of those are hidden Communists and World Socialists. God will deal with them soon enough, it's coming. Just when our enemies think we are the weakest, and that they have won, God is going to step in and lay a hurt upon them that will jerk the silliness right out of them, and they will find themselves bowing before Christ Jesus and His elect priests and kings. Those in Christ already have the Victory. And those of us who know it have an unmeasurable amount of patience for when Jesus will bring those charlatans to their end.

8. I believe in a literal death. When you sleep it is black, you are unconscious, you are unaware, UNTIL the moment of resurrection, where you are brought back to life. I believe the reason God made man in need of sleep was to foreshadow the death that was to come to the world, and then to also foreshadow resurrection, because just as we fall asleep and wake up (how quick it is), i believe that death and resurrection to be similar (it is quick, and we wake up in new bodies).

I do not believe that, because there's enough Scripture evidence to show that our flesh body is only a shell, and not the real part of our being. Eccl.12:5-7 teaches that at flesh death the "silver cord" is severed, and our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In Matt.10 Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not our soul, which means our spirit with soul has continued existence after death in the flesh. Even the malefactor crucified with Jesus that believed on Him, Jesus said that day the malefactor would be with Him in Paradise. To be absent from this flesh body is to be with The LORD is what Apostle Paul taught (2 Cor.5).

9. I believe that there are three things, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it is not a "trinity" as originally taught and pushed by the catholic church. The Father is greater than the Son and the Spirit, as the Father has no beginning, and he has made both things for his glory. I believe that the Son and the Spirit were in the beginning, as written by scripture, but were created before all other things were made, and that through the Son were all things created.

There is NO Scripture proof anywhere that Jesus was 'created', period. Some get confused in Hebrews with the comparison of Christ's purpose to die in the flesh vs. the angels. Jesus existed with The Father eternal, which is why He also applied the Alpha and Omega meaning to Himself, being equal with The Father. The ONLY difference is that He was born in the flesh, was without sin, and became the Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. That The Father did not do, but The Son. But even in the flesh, Jesus' Name was still "Immanuel", which means 'with us is God'. His Spirit is what that difference is. Even the Name Jesus is special with the Hebrew version, His Name directly includes The Father's Name; they cannot be separated.

10. I believe that all things should be done in the name of Jesus Christ alone as is taught throughout the book of Acts, including baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ alone. I believe the scripture in Matthew about the trinity was altered by the Roman Catholic Church and there is evidence of this and an earlier manuscript that was uncovered showing that the original text said "in my name" only.

If you believe The Godhead is made up of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, then what's the problem?

11. I believe that the church should be run as in the book of Acts, assembling in homes with breaking of bread and communion, not as it is run today as big mega churches running as major corporate businesses.

The days are coming when true believers on Christ Jesus will not want to be a part of some of the church systems of today. But that doesn't mean everything they teach is wrong. And house churches can be just as big 'beth-avens' (house of vanity) as a mega-church can be. It all depends on whether The Word of God is taught there, or not. Go where you're fed God's Word, and don't worry about the other.

12. I believe tithing to be a false teaching, the apostles instructed all new believers to sell everything that they had, and live humbly, and share with each as they had need. I believe this same instruction applies today.

Apostle Paul's Message was for us to give according to our ability, but not to the point where we are left wanting and others are made at ease. It's now a personal matter between God and the giver.

13. I believe that the real promised land is the earth, not the plot of the land in Israel. As it is said, the meek will inherit the earth. I believe that at the second coming of Jesus Christ, as believers, we are to take dominion of the earth. Its at this coming that Jesus Christ will lead a war to destroy nations on the earth, and to throw people in a great fire (hell and gehenna, a literal fire on the earth to destroy people that are alive) that will exist in the future, and that in this fire is where the prophecy of "The wicked will see it and be vexed, He will gnash his teeth and melt away;" in the Psalms will be fulfilled.

That would mean throwing many promises God made to His chosen Israel in the waste basket. Might as well tear out most of the Old Testament prophets out of your Bible then. Don't you remember what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11, that God's gifts of calling are without repentance, meaning He will not go back on His promises to the children of Israel?

And who do you think established the nations? God is Who did that, which is why the nations WILL continue all the way into God's Eternity. See the last 3 verses of Isaiah 19 about God's highway in the world to come. The area of Jerusalem is God's most favorite place on earth; that is where He chose to dwell forever? How can you claim to have The Holy Spirit and go against that?

14. I believe the judgment of Hell and Gehenna to be a fire that will exist in the future to destroy people that are alive and not in Christ. Their judgment is death by the painful and dreadful death by fire.

Some believe it is a perpetual burning of the wicked forever and forever. I believe like the Psalms says, they will consume away. And Rev.20 shows that even death will be destroyed in that future "lake of fire" event.

15. I don't believe that you go to Heaven or Hell right after death. Like I explained in some of the items before, I believe in actual death, I believe in a resurrection, and as believers we are to remain on the Earth to take dominion of it at the coming of the Lord, and those who are not in Christ will be destroyed in fire. I also believe in a second resurrection where those people will be destroyed in this same fire that will exist (this is the second death).

You believe in actual death? You shouldn't, because our Lord Jesus conquered death for us on His cross. When Jesus showed our soul is not killed if our flesh body is killed, I believe Him. When He told the malefactor crucified with Him that he would be with Him that day in Paradise, I believe Him. What has your mind twisted on these things are men's doctrines, and not The Word of God.

16. I believe the true Sabbath to be on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday was instituted by the catholic church and it is a false Sabbath. Although I don't believe we should take a legalistic approach in following the Sabbath, I do believe we are still to honor it and remember it, and there are even indications of the believers in the book of Acts respecting it. It it also one of the ten commandments! Its important!

No, Sunday worship was NOT instituted by the Catholic Church. The Apostles began the tradition of meeting on the first day of the week because on the sabbath they could not gather into homes and hold worship with other Christian brethren. So they began meeting on the first day of the week, Sunday, and it became a Christian tradition. The idea that the Catholic Church began it is Jewish propaganda.

 

[prove-all]

You believe in actual death

some bible verses about sleeping in the grave.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
but I go, that I may awake him [out of sleep].

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up
thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold,
a greater than Solomon is here.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.


So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I awake[David], with thy likeness.



Job asks: If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead
shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[prove-all]

Lazarus and the Rich Man

1. The Lazarus of the parable was Eleazar, Abraham’s steward (Genesis 15:2).

2. He was a Gentile "of Damascus" ("a proselyte of the gate") who "ate the crumbs."

3. He was disinherited (to become a beggar) but he remained faithful to Abraham and God.

4. When this earthly life was over, he received Abraham’s inheritance
after all (he was in Abraham’s bosom) — in "everlasting habitations."

5. The Rich Man of the Parable was Judah. This son of Jacob had five literal brothers as did the Rich Man.

6. He was also a literal son of Abraham, while Eleazar (Lazarus) was not!

7. The Rich Man (Judah) also had the kingship (purple) and the priesthood (linen).

8. Yet Judah (representing God on this earth) was not the true steward of the Abrahamic blessings.

9. Though he and his literal brothers had been graced with the "oracles of God" (the Old Testament)
they would not respond to the One resurrected from the dead (Christ).

10. The "great gulf" was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands
and the Holyland of promise (Abraham’s inheritance).

Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.

 

[popeye]

I kinda figured they would have to ban him.

People have been martyred defending the truth. He busies himself muddying up a truth worthy of martyrdom .

Very disheartening and damaging.