Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

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DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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some bible verses about sleeping in the grave.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
but I go, that I may awake him [out of sleep].

12And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up
thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold,
a greater than Solomon is here.

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.


So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I awake[David], with thy likeness.



Job asks: If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead
shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
In Eccl.9, the subject moves back and forth about the "dead" vs. those in God's Salvation. One must first understand who those "dead" are that Solomon is really speaking about.

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV

Eccl 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
KJV

The Isaiah 26:14 is one the examples in the OT that points to the Rephaim (giants). In some OT Scripture the Hebrew word there was brought into the KJV Engslish as Rephaim. They shall not be resurrected. That's the contrasting 'dead' that Solomon is using in the Eccl.9 Scripture. Or maybe you think that "neither have they any more a reward" actually applies to those in Christ that have died???

Thus in the OT, there is an idea of the truly... 'dead', meaning they will never be resurrected, and that's as dead as it gets. They fit the pattern of Satan's future death who has already been judged and sentenced to perish.

A little later, in Eccl.12, Solomon shows us what happens at flesh death of our flesh bodies. Our flesh is severed from our spirit, the flesh going back to the ground where it came from. But our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. In Matt.10:28 Jesus showed that our soul has continued existence after flesh death. Solomon revealed the "silver cord" in Eccl.12, something invisible that keeps our flesh and spirit joined while alive in the flesh. When it is severed at flesh death, our soul with spirit goes back to God.

Gen 6:3
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
KJV

2 Cor 5:1-9
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
KJV

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this [we groan], earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed,
but clothed upon, that [mortality] might be swallowed up of life.
22For we know that [the whole creation groaneth] and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of [them that slept].

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's [at his coming].

For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on [immortality.]

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have
put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in victory
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,727
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I kinda figured they would have to ban him.

People have been martyred defending the truth. He busies himself muddying up a truth worthy of martyrdom .

Very disheartening and damaging.
Don't worry, there'll be many more that will follow in his wake.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Don't worry, there'll be many more that will follow in his wake.
Banned within two days of joining, after only 51 posts?

I did not see them address my question... :(
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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they would have to ban him.

nuts, i wanted to talk to him some more today.

*sigh* that's why post isn't a mod. he would only ban southeast-asian-telephone-horoscope-spammers.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I am still curious to know how water came into being before creation was begun ;)
 
T

Tintin

Guest
I am still curious to know how water came into being before creation was begun ;)
Yes. That's very true. Water is matter. And matter had to be created. It didn't always exist.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I am still curious to know how water came into being before creation was begun ;)
yeah, like how H[SUB]2[/SUB]0 doesn't fall under the category of "the heavens and the earth" ???
but presumably the hydrogen and the oxygen do, by themselves?

boy did someone put one over on all the world's chemists, eh?
;)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I am still curious to know how water came into being before creation was begun ;)
Hi Magenta,

Does it really matter? These things were written by someone who actually believes and teaches that God the Father created Jesus as a God and not that Jesus is himself God, who thank God is now banned. Regarding water or any other material, we know that at some point, whether before or after, God spoke everything into existence. :)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Hi Magenta,

Does it really matter? These things were written by someone who actually believes and teaches that God the Father created Jesus as a God and not that Jesus is himself God, who thank God is now banned. Regarding water or any other material, we know that at some point, whether before or after, God spoke everything into existence. :)
Isn't that what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Isn't that what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe?
Good evening HeRose,

yes, you are correct! The JW's believe that Jesus was Michael the archangel incarnate and the Mormons believe that Jesus is spirit brother to Lucifer. So, neither of them believe that Jesus is God. For more information, go and look at the original post by cvg and what he believes.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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Good evening HeRose,

yes, you are correct! The JW's believe that Jesus was Michael the archangel incarnate and the Mormons believe that Jesus is spirit brother to Lucifer. So, neither of them believe that Jesus is God. For more information, go and look at the original post by cvg and what he believes.
steady on there I believe Jesus is Michael but I also believe He is almighty God without beginning and without end. My point simply being that thinking Jesus is Michael does not automatically equal thinking Jesus is not God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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^^ mormons also believe Christ is created, and Satan His brother. they also believe that the Father was created - but swear up and down they don't worship "heavenly grandfather" .. they have some difficulty explaining exactly why not tho.
but cvg believing predestination, and rejecting the tithe as a commandment, is against mormonism. they command the tithe and are emphatic that people chose for themselves, in pre-life, who to serve.

.. another subject ..


steady on there I believe Jesus is Michael but I also believe He is almighty God without beginning and without end. My point simply being that thinking Jesus is Michael does not automatically equal thinking Jesus is not God.
i understand that jw's believe this because they find it impossible to believe that Christ Himself died - so Michael stepped in at the cross, and then stepped out again after the resurrection (( ye olde switcheroo, i believe it's called )).

i wonder why you believe this? i don't want to be confrontational about it -- just curious.
 
K

Kaycie

Guest
I agree that the only way to expose false doctrine, and to make sure we are worshiping in spirit and in truth, is to study the bible together and see if our beliefs and practices match the bible. That's what I do here, I don't want anyone to be lost if they are willing to see the truth. However, it is best to do one topic at a time. I think you have way too many points to respond to all at once. Still, I think I MIGHT give it a try, I've been kinda busy lately, and a response to all those points at once will take quite some time.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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steady on there I believe Jesus is Michael but I also believe He is almighty God without beginning and without end. My point simply being that thinking Jesus is Michael does not automatically equal thinking Jesus is not God.
So Michael, a created angel, is also God? Or how does that work?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
57,027
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I agree that the only way to expose false doctrine, and to make sure we are worshiping in spirit and in truth, is to study the bible together and see if our beliefs and practices match the bible. That's what I do here, I don't want anyone to be lost if they are willing to see the truth. However, it is best to do one topic at a time. I think you have way too many points to respond to all at once. Still, I think I MIGHT give it a try, I've been kinda busy lately, and a response to all those points at once will take quite some time.
The OP has been banned already... they are gone.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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So Michael, a created angel, is also God? Or how does that work?
Hi Magenta,

Just FYI, all angels were created, which means Michael the archangel was also created and therefore, no created being can be God. There is nothing in Scripture that would support Jesus as being Michael, nor could any created being pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. In fact, this belief is akin to what JW's believe. Jesus is God Almighty, Sovereign, self existing, First and Lasting, Alpha and Omega, having no beginning or ending. I provided the following scripture in a previous post which destroys any idea that Jesus was created as God (Isa.43:10-11).

Anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God, is believing in false Lord and a different gospel.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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steady on there I believe Jesus is Michael but I also believe He is almighty God without beginning and without end. My point simply being that thinking Jesus is Michael does not automatically equal thinking Jesus is not God.
Since angels are created beings and Michael is an angel, then Michael cannot be God. Also, scripture makes a distinction between angels and the Son of God, as demonstrated below:

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ?
Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
Let all God’s angels worship him.”[SUP] [/SUP]In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”[SUP] [/SUP]But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

In the scripture above it says, "Let all God’s angels worship him" and since God's word states that we are to worship God and him only are we to serve, then Jesus would have to be God in order for the angels to worship him or else it would mean that God would be breaking his own word.

Michael the archangel is a created heavenly being and is nothing beyond that.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Hi Magenta,

Just FYI, all angels were created, which means Michael the archangel was also created and therefore, no created being can be God. There is nothing in Scripture that would support Jesus as being Michael, nor could any created being pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. In fact, this belief is akin to what JW's believe. Jesus is God Almighty, Sovereign, self existing, First and Lasting, Alpha and Omega, having no beginning or ending. I provided the following scripture in a previous post which destroys any idea that Jesus was created as God (Isa.43:10-11).

Anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is God, is believing in false Lord and a different gospel.
I wanted to hear their answer... :)