Rapture= false teaching

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

I ask for a Bible verse which proves that tribulation (or persecution) is God's Wrath on Christians... and all i get is your personal opinion...

I got some Bible verses for you... Bible verse that trump your opinion every time.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

1 Thessalonians 3:1-4
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Romans 12:12 (Dedicated service)
rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,

it's time for people like you to get a clue, and pop your dispensational "I'm better than everyone else" bubble, and take the persecution head on.
You wait for a doctrine that will never come to pass.

it's pre-tribbers like yourself that make me angry... treating the Word of God as if it's some form of escapism and divine favoritism... it literally makes my skin crawl.

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

Zilla64007 said:

you need to get saved Zilla

it is one thing to spread false propoganda

it is a BIG MISTAKE to believe your own lies

there are at least 2 examples of a rapture in the old testament - Enoch and Elijah

and there are 2 examples of God removing the righteous before He judges - Noah's flood and sodom and Gommorah

VW · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

Could it be possible that the church is not part of the resurrection? I know that the marriage supper of the Lamb is before the 1st resurrection, even before His return with His armies. I always have wondered about when Jesus says that He is the resurrection and the life. That all who believe in Him will live, even if they die, and that all who live and believe in Him will never die. Do we believe this?

In His peace,

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

VW said:

The first ressurection stretches from Easter Sunday - the firstfruits
to the Rapture - the Harvest
to The Raising of the Tribulation martyrs at the second coming - The Gleanings

This completes the FIRST RESSURRECTION

CAN YOU SEE THE PIC?????????????

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

I am already saved, greatkraw... I know deep within my heart that I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God the Son, who came down in flesh, died for the sins of mankind, rose again 3 days later, and now sits at the Right Hand of God

and everyone... here is the perfect example. This is EXACTLY what I mean. The perfect example of someone accusing me of being a non-believer, or unsaved because I simply don't believe in pre-tribulation... this is how completely and utterly pathetic and Satanic pre-tribulation makes people today... this is how sickening and perverted dispensational premillennialism really is.

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

VW, notice how dispensational premillennialism makes 3 resurrections...

when it's the Word of God that says there are only 2 resurrections...

THERE CANNOT BE A "FIRST" FIRST RESURRECTION, AND THEN A "SECOND" FIRST RESURRECTION.

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

Zilla64007 said:

I am already saved, greatkraw... I know deep within my heart that I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God the Son, who came down in flesh, died for the sins of mankind, rose again 3 days later, and now sits at the Right Hand of God

and everyone... here is the perfect example. This is EXACTLY what I mean. The perfect example of someone accusing me of being a non-believer, or unsaved because I simply don't believe in pre-tribulation... this is how completely and utterly pathetic and Satanic pre-tribulation makes people today... this is how sickening and perverted dispensational premillennialism really is.

You obviously been hurt by someone

but to Say that God does not deal in dispensations suggest you never actually read the bible

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

I have not been hurt by anyone... so dont tell me what i have and have not experienced, greatkraw. You sit here and accuse me of not being saved because i don't believe in your pathetic pre-tribulation rapture. You disgust and sicken me. You are not my judge, and you are not my jury...

GOD AND GOD ALONE DECIDED WHO IS SAVED AND WHO IS NOT, AND THROUGH HIS SPIRIT HE LETS HIS CHILDREN KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE SAVED OR NOT.

GOD DOES NOT DEAL IN DISPENSATIONS.
GOD THE FATHER DEALS IN COVENANTS.

Go look up the word covenant in the Bible...
the word "dispensation' DOES NOT mean "a time period in which man is tested by God"...
all a dispensation is is an administration... that's ALL it means.
if you actually studied this stuff instead of relying on false teachers like Perry Stone, John Hagee, Hal Lindsay, and Cyrus Scofield, then MAYBE you'd actually learn something useful rather than more man-made doctrines

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

in fact, I'm through with calling this doctrine dispensational premillennialism... it started out as being called "Darbyisn", and it needs to start being called that once again, because it was John Nelson Darby who made this teaching so popular.

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

Zilla64007 said:

the word "dispensation' DOES NOT mean "a time period in which man is tested by God"... I agree; that is not what it means

all a dispensation is is an administration... that's ALL it means.
I agree again

1 -Perry Stone, 2-John Hagee, 3-Hal Lindsay, and 4-Cyrus Scofield,

Never read #1; Hate #2; only read LGPE of #3; never owned #4

I get my doctrine from Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul, John and Peter

Do you think God has any more plans for Israel?

VW · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

I don't know about that, I have been taught this doctrine, but I am not sure about it. I don't think that we can equate the church, and those who believed before Christ's resurrection and had died, as the righteous of the earth. They will be the citizens of the heavenly kingdom, but the church, the body of Christ, the bride, she is the temple of God, and the heavenly city which comes down from God, the new Jerusalem. I am not asking that we make this a doctrine, just that we consider this in the Spirit, a little. I don't think that we have come close to understanding the place that He has reserved for us.

walt2000 · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

I don't believe in a Pre. trib.Rapture.Do's that make me a non Christian to?
walt2000

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

walt2000 said:

it depends on what fruits you display

how many times do you use the word hate?

you do claim an exclusive understanding of revelation

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" - 2 Peter

VW · Feb 12, 2010

walt2000 said:

Not believing in the pre trib rapture would not exclude anyone from His saving grace. It is not a requirement that you believe in this doctrine. And I will argue with anyone who says different. And I ain't the only one who will.

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

no, you don't, greatkraw... if you did, then you would realize that what you follow is absolutely nothing more than a doctrine from Satan himself.
the apostles, Christ Himself, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, Peter... all of them taught perseverance through tribulation... never escapism.

Charles Ryie said in
THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE NEW COVENANT TO PREMILLENNIALISM (unpublished Master's thesis, Dallas Theological Seminary 1947), p. 31

"If the church does not have a new covenant, then she is fulfilling Israel's promises, for it has been clearly shown that the Old Testament teaching on the new covenant is that it is for Israel. If the church is fulfilling Israel's promises as contained in the new covenant or anywhere else in the Scriptures, then [dispensational] premillennialism is condemned."
Hosea 1:10 (prophesied to Israel)
Romans 9:22-26 (fulfilled by the church)

Hosea 2:23 (prophesied to Israel)
1 Peter 2:9-10 (fulfilled by the church)

Amos 9:11 (prophesied to Israel)
Acts 15:14-18 (fulfilled by the church)

Joel 2:28-32 (prophesied to Israel)
Acts 2:17-21 (fulfilled by the church)

In the same manner there are many Old Testament passages referring to Israel that are in the New Testament applied directly to the church.

Exodus 19:6 (referred to Israel)
1 Peter 2:9 (applied directly to the church)

Ezekiel 37:27 (referred to Israel)
2 Corinthians 7:16 (applied directly to the church)

Leviticus 19:2 (referred to Israel)
1 Peter 1:16 (applied directly to the church)

Jeremiah 31:31 (referred to Israel)
Luke 22:20 (applied directly to the church)

no, God is NOT done with Israel, but what and who exactly is Israel?... IT IS NOT SOME PHYSICAL, NATIONAL STATE OR PIECE OF LAND.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9:6-7
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Colossians 3:10-11
10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
18f or through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

there is no distinction between Israel and the church.
God the Father does not care about the physical... He cares about the spiritual.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

Ok; so what is your attitude to the current State of Israel?

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

still trying to play as God, I see...

pathetic. absolutely pathetic.

Zilla64007 · Feb 12, 2010

greatkraw said:

I am not a Zionist, and i never will be.
Dispensationalism gave birth to Zionism, if you havent noticed, and if you want to see the state of the body of Christ, or the church (which IS the Israel of God; Gal. 6:15-16) then look at the bride of Christ:

tattered, divided, perverted, distorted and spat upon by the musings and workings of Satan.
torn apart by teachings of man and demon.

lukewarm in the faith, in the walk, and in the teachings... teaching anything people want to hear...
you honestly expect the bride of Christ, in it's disgusting, pathetic, and lukewarm state right now, is perfect enough to secretly fly away? do you honestly think that we as a whole deserve to fly away from persecution / tribulation?

we don't deserve any kind of special treatment... none WHATSOEVER.
personally speaking, the bride of Christ in the United States was gotten it waaayyy too easy... look at the faith of those who are constantly under fire by their government in other countries across the world... look at the countries who say it is punishable by death to even own a Bible... you tell them that they will be secretly raptured out before the tribulation begins... too late for them. They're in the middle of it.
Their faith in their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is their rock, and they're willing to give their life for Christ. The Christians in this country need to be refined, so that the "Christians in name only" and the real Followers of Christ are weeded out and separated.

we deserve the Wrath of Satan, for it will be our greatest hour as Christians if we choose to continue the fight, run the race, and not give up hope in the Return of Jesus Christ, and for some it will be harder, because they chose to cling to that pre-tribulation rapture... and when it doesn't happen, it's gonna be a sad situation to see.

VW · Feb 12, 2010

Zilla64007 said:

Well, you are right about the state of the church today. It is sad. But this state can and will change very quickly, once the ministry of the Spirit comes back to us. God will divide those who are His from those who are not. Lukewarmness will be done away with in the church. The bride will make herself ready for the Groom. And the Groom will come and get her and take her to His Father's house, and there will be a wedding feast, a marriage supper, and the bride will be there for that. Lots of things need to happen in the church first, and they will. God is choosing His workers now, to show the way in His Spirit's power in love. Soon.

greatkraw · Feb 12, 2010

Zilla64007 said:

you honestly expect the bride of Christ, in it's disgusting, pathetic, and lukewarm state right now, is perfect enough to secretly fly away?

This is really the point;
If the church got purified through tribulation RIGHT NOW
you still have all those mediocre believers who have died over nearly 2000 years;
If God is to purify the church; and He will; it will have to happen in heaven;

When Jesus comes at the second advent his Bride comes with Him for "She has made herself ready"

SO.... sometime before Jesus comes back WITH the church she will have been purified; that purification will be applied to ALL BELIEVERS OF THE CHURCH AGE - This will happen in heaven; this will be the Bema Seat of Christ.

So, how will the Church be taken up to heaven?
Remember we are Sealed by the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is permanently bound to theChurch/Bride (".....the Spirit and the Bride say come.....")

God will take the Church and the Spirit out of the world

From that time there will no longer be anything restraining;
For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. ...

Rapture= false teaching

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