Why I keep the Sabbath FYI.
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I do wonder if those who are honest admit they cannot keep the literal letter perfectly that is non legalistic, therefore they look to Christ and stress faith in him. Whereas those who stress on websites like these legalistic laws, persuade themselves that as they can keep the legalistic law they have decided to follow( as Paul could) they are doing well and therefore stress obedience to the literal letter
If that is true, it would seem obvious to me which group of people are most aware of Gods laws, and make the least we xcuse for breaking them. They refuse to kid themselves they keep the law, and don't stress others must attain to what in honesty they know they do not attain to themselves
As someone said earlier, pride has much to do with insinuating you keep the law when you dont
If that is true, it would seem obvious to me which group of people are most aware of Gods laws, and make the least we xcuse for breaking them. They refuse to kid themselves they keep the law, and don't stress others must attain to what in honesty they know they do not attain to themselves
As someone said earlier, pride has much to do with insinuating you keep the law when you dont
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I like how Paul puts the new covenant:
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
They do by nature the things contained in the law. Its clear which law is being spoken of For Paul goes on about the 10 commandments.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
They do by nature the things contained in the law. Its clear which law is being spoken of For Paul goes on about the 10 commandments.
The position of the Torah observers is actually more consistent, if Acts 15, II Corinthians 3, and the whole book of Galatians is taken out of the picture.
By the way if you are saying that ANYONE is justified through the works of the Law, you are in contradiction with Romans 3:20. As II Cornthians 3 states, the Law has a ministry of condemnation, not a ministry of righteousness. Righteousness does not come through observing the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Regardless, if the assertion you are making is that the word nomos in some contexts is talking about the Old Covenant, and in other contexts it's talking about the Ten Commandments, and that the two are separate, that's a hard thing to prove, since nomos is not specific to one or the other. You are the one who is assigning the context based on your doctrinal position.
I believe the unified law approach is more consistent..that the Ten Commandments were in essence a summary of the entire Old Covenant, including the Book of the Covenant, and that it is one unified law. There are additional things added to the Book of the Covenant but in essence the Ten Commandments is a distillation of the entire Old Covenant.
If I were to swallow the arguments of Sabbath-keepers in general, which I do not, I would be a Torah observer rather than accepting the view that the Ten Commandments are the ultimate standard and are a stand-alone unit.
It amazes me people believe the standard to attain Heaven is obedience to the Ten Commandments. There is nothing in the Ten Commandments about forgiving others, yet Jesus said if you do not forgive your father in Heaven will not forgive you. Therefore you could perfectly keep the Ten Commandments(if that were possible) and still be condemned to hell.
If you want to talk about a standard as such, stress the beatitudes, not the Ten Commandments. Sounds old covenant to me.
If you want to talk about a standard as such, stress the beatitudes, not the Ten Commandments. Sounds old covenant to me.
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Who do you think the parties of the New Covenant are?
The New Covenant is an agreement between God the Father and Jesus Christ. The purpose is for Jesus Christ to secure the salvation of a specific group of people; those who place their faith in Him. God the Father and Jesus Christ are the covenant partners. Jesus rendered perfect obedience to the Father, and died on the Cross as conditions of this covenant. Those who are redeemed are beneficiaries rather than covenant parties. They are united with Christ through acceptance of his atoning sacrifice on their behalf. The covenant parties are not God the Father and Christians; the covenant parties are God the Father and Jesus Christ.
The New Covenant is an agreement between God the Father and Jesus Christ. The purpose is for Jesus Christ to secure the salvation of a specific group of people; those who place their faith in Him. God the Father and Jesus Christ are the covenant partners. Jesus rendered perfect obedience to the Father, and died on the Cross as conditions of this covenant. Those who are redeemed are beneficiaries rather than covenant parties. They are united with Christ through acceptance of his atoning sacrifice on their behalf. The covenant parties are not God the Father and Christians; the covenant parties are God the Father and Jesus Christ.
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Agreed although I'd say the beatitudes and the entire body of apostolic writings...but, we can read the Old Covenant with spiritual eyes and discern the underlying spiritual and moral principles and apply those. The specific application to the nation of Israel may not apply, but the underlying spiritual and moral principles do.
I like this article although it may not be perfect:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...eronomy/text/articles/hays-applyinglaw-bs.pdf
I like this article although it may not be perfect:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...eronomy/text/articles/hays-applyinglaw-bs.pdf
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This is pretty interesting if you assert Sabbathkeeping is part of the things that Gentiles did without having the law..how would they know intuitively that Sabbathkeeping is a moral law, if it is a moral law? It is easy to see that the other things are moral in nature, in fact God has written those things on the conscience of mankind. Virtually every society has laws against violating the other things at some level, but not the same for Sabbath related issues. Again, this is part of my conviction that the Sabbath is nor a moral law.
Another interesting thing is that Paul goes on to say in Romans 3:10 that "..None is righteous, no, not one..no one understands, no one seeks for God". So, I don't think there was a Gentile who actually obeyed the law. Romans 3:20 also says explicitly that no one is justified by the law...a strong them is justification by faith.
Another interesting thing is that Paul goes on to say in Romans 3:10 that "..None is righteous, no, not one..no one understands, no one seeks for God". So, I don't think there was a Gentile who actually obeyed the law. Romans 3:20 also says explicitly that no one is justified by the law...a strong them is justification by faith.
I had a quick look through it. The thought I was personally left with is this. The only way you can truly know what ''law'' God wants you to keep is by trusting that law has been written on your mind and placed on your heart.
Whatever law has been placed there you must have a conscience when you break it.
It just seemed by reading of scholars and theologians delving into/studying which law God wants you to keep and which law is not now applicable, isn't needed, unless you want to teach it from the pulpit. But then if your congregation are Christians they would already know
Whatever law has been placed there you must have a conscience when you break it.
It just seemed by reading of scholars and theologians delving into/studying which law God wants you to keep and which law is not now applicable, isn't needed, unless you want to teach it from the pulpit. But then if your congregation are Christians they would already know
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How logically do you arrive at that conclusion?
By the way I believe God writes His moral law on the hearts of those who are regenerated, but we would disagree on the Sabbath as being a moral law. And I would view this moral law as being much more expansive than just the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments in thsmselves are a pretty low standard..they are but a faint glimmer of God's holiness. The fullest revelation of God's holiness is Jesus Christ...the law compared to Jesus Christ is like the difference between candlelight and the blazing sun.
By the way I believe God writes His moral law on the hearts of those who are regenerated, but we would disagree on the Sabbath as being a moral law. And I would view this moral law as being much more expansive than just the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments in thsmselves are a pretty low standard..they are but a faint glimmer of God's holiness. The fullest revelation of God's holiness is Jesus Christ...the law compared to Jesus Christ is like the difference between candlelight and the blazing sun.
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You translate "his commandments" to mean the Ten Commandments, rather than all the commandments of God that apply to Christians. The Old Covenant was given to ancient Israel, not to God and Christians. The assumption you are making is a pretty minimalistic one. "His commandments" relates to everything that we are commanded to observe.
Out of interest, do you think God kept the Sabbath prior to creation? Do you think angels keep the Sabbath? If these things are part of God's eternal law, how did they keep the Sabbath prior to creation if the laws of time and the sun and moon didn't even exist? Do the humans on "unfallen worlds" keep the Sabbath? If so, do you think that every "unfallen world" in SDA theology has a 24 hour time cycle like the Earth does?
I am wondering if you think the Ten Commandments apply to every being in the universe, including God, the angels, and the beings on unfallen worlds that SDA theology teaches. This is an interesting question for me.
Out of interest, do you think God kept the Sabbath prior to creation? Do you think angels keep the Sabbath? If these things are part of God's eternal law, how did they keep the Sabbath prior to creation if the laws of time and the sun and moon didn't even exist? Do the humans on "unfallen worlds" keep the Sabbath? If so, do you think that every "unfallen world" in SDA theology has a 24 hour time cycle like the Earth does?
I am wondering if you think the Ten Commandments apply to every being in the universe, including God, the angels, and the beings on unfallen worlds that SDA theology teaches. This is an interesting question for me.
Yes, when I became a Christian I believed Jesus died to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, then heaven hinged on obeying the law well enough. The interesting thing was, I actually knew the standard the law set instinctively, 100% perfect obedience. For I knew no sin at all was acceptable to God . Which pretty soon after conversion left me miserable and full of guilt.
Once I was alive apart from the law but when the commandment came sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died(spiritually) The commandment that was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(for I could not keep it)
Once I was alive apart from the law but when the commandment came sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died(spiritually) The commandment that was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(for I could not keep it)
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Another interesting question..do you think that Israel was disobedient because God didn't give them the Holy Spirit so that they could obey him? Do you think God simply failed at something he intended to accomplish with Israel? Or, that he was using them for a specific purpose?
You do believe in God's exhaustive foreknowledge right?
I believe God accomplished everything that he intended to accomplish with ancient Israel, and that God is totally sovereign. They did not respond in obedience because they were not regenerate. He knew before they made the covenant that they would not be obedient to it as a whole. I believe that is part of why the Ten Commandments were written on stone..to represent the hardness of their hearts. They had hearts of stone rather than hearts of flesh.
God is not a man who makes plans that fail. That's the open theist view.
I find this topic to be interesting as a monergist. If you can explain your view in detail regarding what purposes you think God intended to happen with ancient Israel, and what actually happened, I'd appreciate it.
You do believe in God's exhaustive foreknowledge right?
I believe God accomplished everything that he intended to accomplish with ancient Israel, and that God is totally sovereign. They did not respond in obedience because they were not regenerate. He knew before they made the covenant that they would not be obedient to it as a whole. I believe that is part of why the Ten Commandments were written on stone..to represent the hardness of their hearts. They had hearts of stone rather than hearts of flesh.
God is not a man who makes plans that fail. That's the open theist view.
I find this topic to be interesting as a monergist. If you can explain your view in detail regarding what purposes you think God intended to happen with ancient Israel, and what actually happened, I'd appreciate it.
Do you think the Creator of all need a clock to keep time?
God kept the Sabbath when He created the world. He instructed us to keep the Sabbath. He never mentioned the angels. Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, so I don't think the angels will keep the Sabbath because there is no salvation for them. If they sin they are fallen angels.
God kept the Sabbath when He created the world. He instructed us to keep the Sabbath. He never mentioned the angels. Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, so I don't think the angels will keep the Sabbath because there is no salvation for them. If they sin they are fallen angels.
Do you think the Creator of all need a clock to keep time?
God kept the Sabbath when He created the world. He instructed us to keep the Sabbath. He never mentioned the angels. Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, so I don't think the angels will keep the Sabbath because there is no salvation for them. If they sin they are fallen angels.
God kept the Sabbath when He created the world. He instructed us to keep the Sabbath. He never mentioned the angels. Jesus said that the Sabbath was created for man, so I don't think the angels will keep the Sabbath because there is no salvation for them. If they sin they are fallen angels.