Hyper grace

[KennethC]

Christian is not under the moral law as far as keeping it for righteousness. I agree with you that the love of God in us fulfills the law of Moses in our hearts. The 10 commandments are the very weapons that satan uses against us but thank God that Jesus nailed that to cross with Him Col. 2:13-15.

Christ fulfilled the law for us which is why we are not under the law anymore for righteousness. Christ's life in us fulfills the law as His life is expressed in our lives. The law of love as you say does constrain us to live "righteously" if you will. This love in reality has nothing to do with keeping the law of Moses - the love in us goes way beyond the keeping of the law.

We are not under the law for righteousness anymore but that is not saying that murder now for example is a good thing. The law is good!! - it's just that we cannot keep it. Jesus did it for us!

Nobody is saying the law makes us righteous, please do not falsely read that in to what I say or use that faulty excuse toward me.

Doing so you would be doing the same false accusations against another that you say is done to you when some say to you you use Grace to allow sinful lives to continue.

You don't like false allegations, and neither do we.

Where do you get Satan uses the commandments against us ???

Lord Jesus and God's word says multiple times those who love Him keep His commandments, and those that don't love Him do not, and when Satan tested Jesus our Lord used the word to fend him off.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet that chastising is still for our correction, not for us to continue living enmity lifestyles against Him.

It Cleary says in John that one of the things the Holy Spirit was sent to do is convicted us believers when we sin to correct us by helping us turn from those ways so we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

You have that a little backwards.

We are not condemned because we are Gods children and have chastening. Thats why a child of God can not live in sin.

A child of the world has no access to this, and has rjected Christ, so he is condemned already, because he has not believed.

 

[james57]

Nobody is saying the law makes us righteous, .

If you say Heaven hinges/is determined by obedience to the law on your heart, however you word it, you are indeed saying obedience to the law makes you righteous

 

[royalscot]

Absolutely saved by grace-a gift.
What law was given to the Gentiles? It would include the following I suggest:


You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness-not full stop Rom 10:4

Sin always has been transgression of the law.
Jesus died for all our sins at calvary, past, present and future.
Therefore Paul states.
No one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law(Rom 3:20)
And
The Christian has a righteousness apart from the law(Rom3:21&22)

Why are the above statements true?

For sin is transgression of the law, and Jesus died for all the Christians sins at calvary

i suggest believing in and listening to , i am not saved by law, but a saviour.

show me a temple of stone, after 70 ad. so who can follow law. (again requirements of the law given to jewish people.)


6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49


my salvation , would asks ,what part do i play. it would also ask, what was god doing through these people. ie 70 ad

paul is dead,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The lake of fire is for unbelievers and the disobedient both.

Lord Jesus gave two teachings about warning in being disobedient servants, and in both teachings the ending result for such people is not eternally life.

The unbeliever is disobedient.. They are both.

according to the law. The believer is disobedient also But he was made a child of God. so the law can bot longer condemn him.

The requirement of th elaw is what condemns the unbeliever and shows their disobedience. Not anything else.

 

[james57]

i suggest believing in and listening to , i am not saved by law, but a saviour.

show me a temple of stone, after 70 ad. so who can follow law. (again requirements of the law given to jewish people.)


6 he says:
"It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."Isaiah 49


my salvation , would asks ,what part do i play. it would also ask, what was god doing through these people. ie 70 ad

paul is dead,

I have never said you are saved by the law. You are not, nor can the obedience to the law make you righteous in God's sight.
But the core terms of the new covenant state:

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
It also states
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

The law on your heart is not your righteousness to attain Heaven, Christ is, for your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. The law on your heart cuts out the licence to sin, that is why you get the grace

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i suggest believing in and listening to , i am not saved by law, but a saviour.

I see it as I am saved FROM THE LAW by A savior, the lamb of God, who took away my sin (Penalty)

 

[KennethC]

John 16:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

There is no place in the New testament that says the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of sin. I realize that is commonly taught but here in John it clearly states that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they do not believe in Me.

Unfortunately many of our traditions taught to us are not really in the bible. Jesus said :

Mark 7:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

I encourage you to search this out in the scriptures.

I have searched this out and whenever I sin, or even think about doing wrong I feel the Holy Spirit in me convicted me.

There are multiple warnings in the NT that is directed and given to BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit works mightily in me to keep me on the proper path through Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have searched this out and whenever I sin, or even think about doing wrong I feel the Holy Spirit in me convicted me.

There are multiple warnings in the NT that is directed and given to BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit works mightily in me to keep me on the proper path through Jesus.

Yep but acording to your own belief, you can still fall away thus you have the power to resist the spirit and fall away.

So it is still depending on your own power to resist the flesh and not fall away..

 

[royalscot]

I have never said you are saved by the law. You are not, nor can the obedience to the law make you righteous in God's sight.
But the core terms of the new covenant state:

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
It also states
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

The law on your heart is not your righteousness to attain Heaven, Christ is, for your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more. The law on your heart cuts out the licence to sin, that is why you get the grace

was that not the gist of what i said in my first post.(grace a gift)
it say, if you read on, god will teach you. laws or ways, if you live by the golden rule, then your a law unto your self.

 

[Grace777x70]

Great question!

The answer I believe is in the very same passage in John. The Holy Spirit "convicts" ( which really means convinces in the original greek language ) us of righteousness because He goes to the father. The Holy Spirit convinces/convicts the believer that we are the righteousness of God in Christ now. He says "this is not who you are! "

If you read the start of 1 Corth Paul say you are complete in Christ, Christ is made for you wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption. Paul tells the people in Corinth who they actually are, then foes on to correct with words their behavior.

It is much like us telling our children when they mis-behave that you are not like that...that is not the real you!

Who, if not the Holy Spirit convicted the man sleeping with his father's wife of sin to the point where he repented. 1Cor and IICor ?

 

[KennethC]

If you say Heaven hinges/is determined by obedience to the law on your heart, however you word it, you are indeed saying obedience to the law makes you righteous

I am saying obedience to Christ, not obedience to the written ordinances.

Please understand the difference, and we are commanded to observe/obey all that Jesus taught/commanded.

He did not give us suggestions, He gave commandments

John 3:21, Luke 6:46-49 Jesus showed those who believe in Him are those that DO what He said.

 

[james57]

I am saying obedience to Christ, not obedience to the written ordinances.

Please understand the difference, and we are commanded to observe/obey all that Jesus taught/commanded.

He did not give us suggestions, He gave commandments

John 3:21, Luke 6:46-49 Jesus showed those who believe in Him are those that DO what He said.

. Do you obey every literal command of Christ? No! So are you condemned?
I have never met any Christian in forty years of going to church who obeys each and every literal command of Christ. Paul showed how to fulfil the law of Christ

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

 

[Grace777x70]

I think it's more like the Holy Spirit convicting/convincing you that you are righteous now - you have the life and love of God in you. Be who you really are! When we see Jesus -we are transformed into His image through the Spirit.

We can confuse those "feelings" we have with the tradtions we were taught about "conviction of sin".

I have searched this out and whenever I sin, or even think about doing wrong I feel the Holy Spirit in me convicted me.

There are multiple warnings in the NT that is directed and given to BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit works mightily in me to keep me on the proper path through Jesus.

 

[royalscot]

I see it as I am saved FROM THE LAW by A savior, the lamb of God, who took away my sin (Penalty)

you need a law to be saved from v the punishment of god. if this was also fixed by jesus, then adams sin was also atoned for.

6 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.Romans 5




29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3



follow god, and his ideas, you see a different picture.

humans speaking words that god told them, now we can see .what god said through them. etc

 

[crossnote]

Great question!

The answer I believe is in the very same passage in John. The Holy Spirit "convicts" ( which really means convinces in the original greek language ) us of righteousness because He goes to the father. The Holy Spirit convinces/convicts the believer that we are the righteousness of God in Christ now. He says "this is not who you are! "

If you read the start of 1 Corth Paul say you are complete in Christ, Christ is made for you wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption. Paul tells the people in Corinth who they actually are, then foes on to correct with words their behavior.

It is much like us telling our children when they mis-behave that you are not like that...that is not the real you!

So you are trying to say that this sin committed was not one to be repented of but his problem was he didn't see his position in Christ?
I hardly think that matches the facts, besides many understand their position in Christ but unfortunately use it to serve the flesh...

2Co 2:3-11 And I wrote as I did, so that when I came I might not suffer pain from those who should have made me rejoice, for I felt sure of all of you, that my joy would be the joy of you all. (4) For I wrote to you out of much affliction and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to cause you pain but to let you know the abundant love that I have for you. (5) Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. (6) For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, (7) so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. (8) So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. (9) For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. (10) Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, (11) so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.


Gal 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

 

[KennethC]

You make the mistake many do, you think obedience is by looking to the literal letter of commandments. Do you obey every literal command of Christ? No! So are you condemned?
I have never met any Christian in forty years of going to church who obeys each and every literal command of Christ. Paul showed how to fulfil the law of Christ

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal6:2

No the mistake is to continue to apply the MORAL and WRITTEN as one and the same.

Second how do figure you will transgress/sin if you are walking in LOVE and bearing the burdens of others ???

If we are walking as mentioned in the question, and also how Paul commanded then we would be producing the Fruit of the Holy Spirit.

When you look at list given by Paul you will see the fruit is the direct opposite and will not lead one to transgress, or like Peter said, "will not stumble."

This is why Paul said no condemnation to those in Christ who walk by the Spirit.

Walking by the Spirit will lead us from giving into the flesh !!!

 

[crossnote]

The danger I see here is the danger of short circuiting the ongoing sanctification process of the Holy Spirit in the name of "We have already been sanctified and made complete in Him".

It's hard for some to hold both truths.

 

[Grace777x70]

The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross. Satan uses the law against us. Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law. BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us. When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed". If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. How great is our salvation in Him!

Nobody is saying the law makes us righteous, please do not falsely read that in to what I say or use that faulty excuse toward me.

Doing so you would be doing the same false accusations against another that you say is done to you when some say to you you use Grace to allow sinful lives to continue.

You don't like false allegations, and neither do we.

Where do you get Satan uses the commandments against us ???

Lord Jesus and God's word says multiple times those who love Him keep His commandments, and those that don't love Him do not, and when Satan tested Jesus our Lord used the word to fend him off.

 

[KennethC]

I think it's more like the Holy Spirit convicting/convincing you that you are righteous now - you have the life and love of God in you. Be who you really are! When we see Jesus -we are transformed into His image through the Spirit.

We can confuse those "feelings" we have with the tradtions we were taught about "conviction of sin".

I am not confusing anything as I am not speaking on man's teachings or traditions.

I am speaking directly on how and what the Holy Spirit is doing in and through me.

I see so little now days of people thanking God for what He is doing for us by His Holy Spirit. God said that we only need to lean on Him for understanding, and He will give us the Truth we seek by the Holy Spirit.