the rapture

[PlainWord]

Apostle John was not raptured with Jesus giving him His Revelation that was to be sent to the seven Churches (and us). Jesus gave him to see visions of things future by The Spirit to John's spirit while his flesh body was in prison on the Isle of Patmos.

And that vision of the temple in Rev.11:1-2 with those who worship inside it, and the outer court left to the Gentiles, and their treading the city for 42 months is a direct... link to this 42 months period He gave John to see later, in Rev.13:

Rev 13:4-7
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV

Rev.13 is that same time period as Rev.11 within the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. That is tribulation timing just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet when Jesus returns. It's the latter half 1260 days period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9). That's also why we're shown there in Rev.11 God's two witnesses that appear there in Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast for those 1260 days.

All that is really simple if... one simply reads the Scripture as written while keeping in mind what our Lord Jesus showed John in the rest of His Revelation, and not listening to men's doctrines instead that confuse it.

You are only assuming the above. Again, there is no passage anywhere in the Bible which clearly tells us of a third man-made earthly temple to be built in Jerusalem. It is assumed from a passage by Paul and one by John which speaks of a temple but doesn't provide any historical context. Revelation is a highly spiritual book. It's imagery is complex but can be sorted out if one refers back to the OT prophets and their use of the same symbolism.

Revelation 13 deals with the rise of Radical Islam as the 8th Beast and ties to Rev 17 and 18. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any Temple in Jerusalem. Rev 13 ties to this verse from Rev 17:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

The Beast that was, and is not, was the Ottoman Empire which has returned as the Islamic State.

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

If you look closer at Dan.2:32-45, especially the 35th and 45th verses, you should notice that there's actually 5 beast kingdoms there. The one of Dan.2:41 is actually the 5th one, the feet of ten toes of part iron and clay. That's the final one of Rev.13.

Because Dan.2:35 shows all... the pieces together are broken at the same time, when the stone smites them, it is pointing to all the previous beast kingdoms existing with the last one of ten toes. There's another Message God is giving with those pieces. Notice the heaviest material pieces are at the top, with the weakest at the bottom with feet of part iron mixed with clay.

I fully agree! In the same way, there's actually 8 kingdoms in the book of Revelation.
Fourth beast of Daniel = seventh beast of Revelation
Fifth beast of Daniel = eighth beast of Revelation

The fifth/eighth beast is a revival of the fourth/seventh, hence, "he is one of the seven".

John says five kingdoms have fallen, one is (the Roman empire obviously) and the other is yet to come (the seventh). Then comes the eighth which is "out of the seven". So the Antichrist eighth kingdom is a revival of the seventh, not of the sixth. How do most Bible interpreters explain this away? Can the Roman empire be both the sixth, the seventh and the eighth empire?(!)

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

The Beast that was, and is not, was the Ottoman Empire which has returned as the Islamic State.

You're right but I don't think ISIS will ever get popular among Muslims. Saudi Arabia is now asking the ummah to create a "real" caliphate. I.e. the caliphate the prophet Daniel talked about that will come in peace and according to the NT "will destroy many".

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs. — Qur'an, sura 27 (An-Naml), ayat 82

 

[PlainWord]

That's where you are definitely wrong, listening to Preterist or Histocist doctrines of men instead. Christ's seven Messages to the seven Churches serve as Messages to seven anti-types. All those seven Messages are still in effect today all the way up to His second coming.

Same thing with the Book of Daniel about the "vile person" and "little horn" prophecies also; they are especially about the end of days, even as Daniel was told the main prophecies he was given, that they are sealed up for the end, and the wise in the end would understand.

My point is/was that John wrote to the 7 churches in Asia Minor specifically to strengthen, encourage and rebuke (some of) them.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

The things which are - are for the 7 churches. The things which take place after this - are for those who come after. We are to listen to what John wrote to the 7 churches because he wrote to the messenger/spirit of these churches. The location of them, in Turkey is also very important because they are located in the heart of the Islamic Empire of the Ottoman's which come back as the 8th and Final Beast empire.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

I agree that the Little Horn is for the end and that Daniel in back end of Chapter 7, back end of Chapter 11 and all of Chapter 12 deal with the time of the end.

 

[PlainWord]

You're right but I don't think ISIS will ever get popular among Muslims. Saudi Arabia is now asking the ummah to create a "real" caliphate. I.e. the caliphate the prophet Daniel talked about that will come in peace and according to the NT "will destroy many".

And when the Word is fulfilled against them (the unjust), we shall produce from the earth a beast to (face) them: He will speak to them, for that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our Signs. — Qur'an, sura 27 (An-Naml), ayat 82

The Saudis and Gulf States are the "Kings of the Earth" who mourn when Mecca is nuked. They are also depicted in the third seal as the rich and poor. (Hint: Seals 1-4 depict ISLAM. The white horse was Muhammad, his conquests and start of Islam. The Red Horse was the Ottoman Empire from start to finish including the remnant which sided with Hitler. The Black Horse describes the extreme differences in the "haves" and "have nots" within Islam. The 4th horse (GREEN, not pale) describes radical Islam which will take over all of Islam. The Man of Sin aka Little Horn, aka AntiChrist will rise up and direct all Muslims to unite behind the Beast from the Sea.

Whether it is ISIS or Iran, Turkey or Pakistan which becomes the Beast of the Sea is still an open question. Right now ISIS is doing everything to match. But let's face it, there are two sects of Islam, the Shia and Sunni. Sunnis follow Muhammad and are the dominant sect while the Shiites favor Ali, Muhammad's nephew. You have radical influences in both which kill and want to take over the other. ISIS is Sunni and Iran is Shia. It will be interesting to see which takes over.

A northern Islamic Empire will battle with a southern Islamic Empire. At some point during this battle, they will invade Israel.

 

[DP]

The "great city" of Revelation is about Jerusalem.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense in that time because it will be in a state of false worship. The "great city" identifier is mentioned 10 times in Revelation, and the very last one is about the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God.

The rapture moonshine has gotten so many blinded today, that they can't see what the end of this world involving Jerusalem is about. It's the about the devil taking it over for a "short time" at the end and substituting himself there in place of Christ; that's who has always wanted to be God and worshiped as God, even from the beginning when he sinned against God coveting His Throne.

That's who the symbolic "woman" called the "whore" and Babylon harlot is in that future time. It's Jerusalem fallen to false worship.

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

 

[popeye]

Postrib,if it is ever to be taken seriously,is in desperate need of honesty.

They can start by gathering verses they reject,and stop the silliness of their "gotcha by default",telling us where we obtained our belief.
Bizarre indeed since they can not face the light of the verses we bring to the table.
They basically have no rapture at all by cramming it into a mid air jump onto rider less horses,and skipping Jesus promised business IN HEAVEN AT THE LAST SUPPER.

"Wicked always gathered first" is a blatant lie,as is their comical stumbling over no brainers like the 10 virgins,and wild screaming about "secret rapture" when it was Jesus himself that called the gathering "like a thief"

These departures,and rabbit trails into extra biblical desperations,to me says they are outta gas.

Actually,they better stick to that nonsense since what they are doing would just butcher the bible worse than they already have.

Guys,you really,really need new material....er uh,maybe not.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Postrib,if it is ever to be taken seriously,is in desperate need of honesty.

They can start by gathering verses they reject,and stop the silliness of their "gotcha by default",telling us where we obtained our belief.
Bizarre indeed since they can not face the light of the verses we bring to the table.
They basically have no rapture at all by cramming it into a mid air jump onto rider less horses,and skipping Jesus promised business IN HEAVEN AT THE LAST SUPPER.

"Wicked always gathered first" is a blatant lie,as is their comical stumbling over no brainers like the 10 virgins,and wild screaming about "secret rapture" when it was Jesus himself that called the gathering "like a thief"

These departures,and rabbit trails into extra biblical desperations,to me says they are outta gas.

Actually,they better stick to that nonsense since what they are doing would just butcher the bible worse than they already have.

Guys,you really,really need new material....er uh,maybe not.

So true popeye! In fact, both the event of the resurrection and catching away of the church and the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age are opposite. In the resurrection, the righteous are caught up and the wicked left, but when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the wicked are collected first and the righteous are left, as can be demonstrated by the following:

Believers removed and wicked left:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Wicked taken and believers left:
"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’

"He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Postrib,if it is ever to be taken seriously,is in desperate need of honesty.

They can start by gathering verses they reject,and stop the silliness of their "gotcha by default",telling us where we obtained our belief.
Bizarre indeed since they can not face the light of the verses we bring to the table.
They basically have no rapture at all by cramming it into a mid air jump onto rider less horses,and skipping Jesus promised business IN HEAVEN AT THE LAST SUPPER.

"Wicked always gathered first" is a blatant lie,as is their comical stumbling over no brainers like the 10 virgins,and wild screaming about "secret rapture" when it was Jesus himself that called the gathering "like a thief"

These departures,and rabbit trails into extra biblical desperations,to me says they are outta gas.

Actually,they better stick to that nonsense since what they are doing would just butcher the bible worse than they already have.

Guys,you really,really need new material....er uh,maybe not.

In addition:

The Known Day and the Unknown Day Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Mt.25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Rev.12:6,14 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Mt.24:15-21, 2 Thes.2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan.9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev.13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev.19:20,2 Thes.2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

 

[DP]

You are only assuming the above. Again, there is no passage anywhere in the Bible which clearly tells us of a third man-made earthly temple to be built in Jerusalem. It is assumed from a passage by Paul and one by John which speaks of a temple but doesn't provide any historical context. Revelation is a highly spiritual book. It's imagery is complex but can be sorted out if one refers back to the OT prophets and their use of the same symbolism.

Revelation 13 deals with the rise of Radical Islam as the 8th Beast and ties to Rev 17 and 18. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any Temple in Jerusalem. Rev 13 ties to this verse from Rev 17:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

The Beast that was, and is not, was the Ottoman Empire which has returned as the Islamic State.

It's not an assumption. Anyone who actually studies the order of the last three trumpets should know that Rev.11 Scripture is given within the time period of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, because per the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe, all the kingdoms become those of The Father and The Son, meaning He is reigning over all nations on earth right after that 7th trumpet.

This means the events prior to that 7th trumpet are tribulation timing events. That 42 months the Gentiles tread the city is a direct link to the symbolic "one weeK" of the Daniel 9 prophecy, not only the Rev.13 chapter which tells us the dragon is given power for 42 months.

Hard to miss all that for one who has studied. You're simply in denial of those Scriptures. Saying all that's about Islam is terribly funny.

 

[DP]

I fully agree! In the same way, there's actually 8 kingdoms in the book of Revelation.
Fourth beast of Daniel = seventh beast of Revelation
Fifth beast of Daniel = eighth beast of Revelation

The fifth/eighth beast is a revival of the fourth/seventh, hence, "he is one of the seven".

John says five kingdoms have fallen, one is (the Roman empire obviously) and the other is yet to come (the seventh). Then comes the eighth which is "out of the seven". So the Antichrist eighth kingdom is a revival of the seventh, not of the sixth. How do most Bible interpreters explain this away? Can the Roman empire be both the sixth, the seventh and the eighth empire?(!)

I only see 5 piece sections of the statute image in Daniel.

The beast king in Rev.17 is easily misunderstood. The 6th king was in John's day, the 7th was still to come, and that will be the coming pseudo-Christ of our day. The 8th beast king is for a time after.

 

[popeye]

Question for postribs,
If thief in your world translates "secret" then how would rev 19 be either one?

Do you have an example that exists someplace proving a normal person would see an invading army descending from the sky on horses with a general leading them with lightning proceeding from his mouth and his enemies being slaughtered....then someone says "that God on that lead horse reminds me of a thief".

Do you guys not see the quandary of your poorly thought out doctrine?

 

[popeye]

Question for postribs

Why is it that your teachers,in 2000 years,have never,one time ,initiated a teaching on the bride /groom dimension?

The biggest event about to happen and your camp is clueless?

That is not a red flag?

 

[popeye]

Think guys. Don't just look up Ken Anderson or prophecy club standard smoke and mirrors.

 

[PlainWord]

The "great city" of Revelation is about Jerusalem.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense in that time because it will be in a state of false worship. The "great city" identifier is mentioned 10 times in Revelation, and the very last one is about the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven from God.

The rapture moonshine has gotten so many blinded today, that they can't see what the end of this world involving Jerusalem is about. It's the about the devil taking it over for a "short time" at the end and substituting himself there in place of Christ; that's who has always wanted to be God and worshiped as God, even from the beginning when he sinned against God coveting His Throne.

That's who the symbolic "woman" called the "whore" and Babylon harlot is in that future time. It's Jerusalem fallen to false worship.

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

ABSOLUTELY WRONG!! SORRY. The GREAT CITY, BABYLON is all about ISLAM and worship of a False God. Israel recognizes the correct God although most do not recognize His Son as of yet, but they will. If you look at all the clues given here's why it cannot be Jerusalem/Judaism:

1.Among smallest Religion <.5%

2.Not part of a 7 kingdom succession
3.Few peoples/nations worship her
4.Not Similar to former Babylon
5.Not Located in a Wilderness/Desert
6.John did not recognize her
7.No Kings of Earth Fornicate with her
8.Doesn’t Behead People
9.Not Near a busy seaport
10.Few get rich from selling her “goods”
11.Merchants would rejoice at demise
12.Can’t be destroyed as Christ returns
to Jerusalem and reigns from there

 

[PlainWord]

Question for postribs

Why is it that your teachers,in 2000 years,have never,one time ,initiated a teaching on the bride /groom dimension?

The biggest event about to happen and your camp is clueless?

That is not a red flag?

The Wedding takes place after the Second Coming and it located as such if you read Rev 19.

 

[PlainWord]

Question for postribs,
If thief in your world translates "secret" then how would rev 19 be either one?

Do you have an example that exists someplace proving a normal person would see an invading army descending from the sky on horses with a general leading them with lightning proceeding from his mouth and his enemies being slaughtered....then someone says "that God on that lead horse reminds me of a thief".

Do you guys not see the quandary of your poorly thought out doctrine?

The "Thief in the Night" analogy is not about Christ coming in secret, it is about most people not recognizing the warning signs of His coming.

You don't see the thief until he breaks the window and enters the house.

 

[popeye]

Question for post trib

How does the bride become the wife in rev 19,receive white robes,mount horses,return to earth,.....and gather what? Clones?

Iow,how are they in heaven,mounting horses when you guys say they can't mount them till they are visible in earths atmosphere?

Another quandary?

 

[popeye]

The Wedding takes place after the Second Coming and it located as such if you read Rev 19.

Clearly wrong.

It even says wife. The wife is on horses IN HEAVEN.

 

[popeye]

The "Thief in the Night" analogy is not about Christ coming in secret, it is about most people not recognizing the warning signs of His coming.

You don't see the thief until he breaks the window and enters the house.

Flawed pat answer.

You guys now have a thief destroying a thousand square miles of humanoids,taking nothing,
And Jesus saying "see,that is what all thiefs do"

And the survivors describing the slaughter as a thief in the night

Not even remotely plausible.


Oh wow could he have actually been referring to the Taking of his bride pretrib?

You; "no,I'll figure something else out"...."there's gotta be a way to make an invading army that takes nothing appear to be a thief"

BTW,Your analogy that a thief always alerts those Asleep,makes Jesus look stupid.

Play it out. Just one time...play it out.