Hyper grace

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

None of us can keep God's commandments. If we could there would be no need for Jesus to come.

Christ "obeyed" all the commandments of God for us. He fulfilled all the law for us.

The christian life cannot be lived without Jesus' life living through us...no matter how holy or righteous we may look in our behavior.

Faith in Him alone brings the "fruit" of being righteous and having obedience. No one can live the true Christian life but He can and does through us! It's always all about Him and what He has done for us!

eternally-gratefull said:

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Here is an interesting comparisons between 2 schools of thought on what the gospel of the grace of Christ is....

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Here is another quote from the famous theologian D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

james57 · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

That measure would have to be in our heart wouldn't it, not our head

PeterJens · Dec 2, 2015

Here is my list

Areas of problem

1. I am first and foremost - a sinner saved by grace
2. Eternal security hinges on - faith in Jesus
3. How to overcome sin - being overwhelmed by what love in Jesus actually is
4. We are saved through faith in Jesus
5. Faith is trusting in Jesus
6. Repentance is turning from sin
7. Confession of sins is stating what sins we have commited
8. Forgiveness is accepting christ forgiveness of us because of repentance and the cross
9. Obedience is putting love in Christ into action
10. Sanctification - is the transformation that comes from putting love into action
11. Be holy because that is what it is to walk with Jesus
12. The law helps us see Gods precepts and desires
13. Sacrifice is not counting the cost of meeting needs
14. Gods love is to accept us and transform us if we open up to Him
15. Holy Spirits conviction is a friends leading to life

Your list is an attempt to make people either legalists, ie trying to become something in the Lord by following rules as against the idea we are born into redemption without any free will on our part.

Until you bring into free will, and learning to have communion with the Lord to guide your steps, personal responsibility and effort you have to put in to walk with Jesus is just ignored.

Now I could argue I have no choice but to follow Jesus, but that is because love is core to life and reality. Once you accept this truth, Jesus is all in all. But everyone tends to make the world view fit what they want to do, rather than the other way round. The closer to God you walk, the more obvious everything is, and likewise the more distant you are from life and love, the more hatred, violence, bitterness, anger is the only response. There is no objective place in this world.

PeterJens · Dec 2, 2015

The problem with taking magic perfection

1. We are super-spiritual people who can command things into reality
2. Wealth, health are ours to claim not a gift of grace that is given
3. The circumstances of life are turned into moral Kama, poverty evil, prosperity good, illness a curse, health proof of spiritual authority.
4. Not talking about sin or failure but emphasising magical provision of angels, gold dust, feathers, smoke, gold teeth, speaking with prophets and dead christians in real time.
5. No fear of God, or respect, or setting boundaries of behaviour or relationships

So prophets go into a church and give words which are to be taken as scripture, to rearrange who is married to who, that everything is submitted to the "prophet" who is exalted to an oracle.

The foundation of this is we are perfect, the law is written on our hearts so we can never be deceived or miss-led, sanctification will just happen without obedience to Christ or putting love into action. This is just another version of the born-again gospel which said just gaining knowledge of faith is enough to walk with Jesus.

eternally-gratefull · Dec 2, 2015

PeterJens said:

Eternal security hinges on Gods promise, not on us..there is no security in self.
We are saved by GRACE through faith
We overcome sin by relying on the power of God in our lives.
repentance is turning from self and placing our faith in God.
God forgives us even when we do not forgive ourselves. If we do not understand grace and mercy, in which we harp on past sin, we are not relying on God.
the law led us to Christ, Thats all it can do. Once its purpose is fulfilled in our life. it is done.

other than these points, I think I agree with you..

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Poverty is evil and it's a curse. Illness is a curse as well. Both of these are not from God. It is not God's will for us to be in poverty or to live in illness. That is a lie from our enemy.

Deuteronomy 30:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

There definitely many curses and destructions that to us on this earth and they bring death to us. The Lord says to choose life so that you may live!

Deut 28:15-45 Lists all the things that the Lord says are bad and included that is poverty and sickness.

Jesus redeemed us from all the curses of the law Gal 3:13

Psalm 35:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

God gave Solomon enormous wealth! God is NOT against us having prosperity so that we can be a blessing to others! God is against money having US!

I agree there are excesses but it is foolish to throw the baby out with the dirty water.

God does want us as any loving Father does for his children to prosper and be healthy. There are so many scriptures that show the heart of God towards us!

I agree that excess in areas can happen but it does not negate the truth of the heart of a loving Father.

Gluttony is not good for us but the bible doesn't say..don't eat!

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"...imagine heaven full of poverty and sickness?..it's ridiculous!

Make no mistake about it that poverty and illness is not from our loving Father. Jesus always blessed people by healing them and providing them with good things!

PeterJens said:

Budman · Dec 2, 2015

And yet Jesus had no place to lay His head.

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Refusing the prosperity of the Lord at it's core is extreme self-centeredness ...characterized by a distorted view of our loving heavenly Father. The purpose of wealth is to be a blessing to others!!!

We take the admonitions in the bible against wealth in a totally wrong way, The bible warns about NOT trusting in riches and NOT in God..

1 Timothy 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Notice that it is God who richly supplies us with all thing to enjoy....

People who think that poverty and sickness are a virtue and from God sent to "teach" us something....are going to have an enormous fit when they get to heaven! They will also not be able to learn anything new because there is no poverty and sickness there to "teach" them things. It's going to be a horrible experience for them! Traumatic!

The enemy wants us to believe poverty and sickness are good things so that he can stop the work of our loving Father to others that need our help!

eternally-gratefull · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

Refusing the prosperity of the Lord at it's core is extreme self-centeredness ...characterized by a distorted view of our loving heavenly Father. The purpose of wealth is to be a blessing to others!!!

We take the admonitions in the bible against wealth in a totally wrong way, The bible warns about NOT trusting in riches and NOT in God..

1 Timothy 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Notice that it is God who richly supplies us with all thing to enjoy....

People who think that poverty and sickness are a virtue and from God sent to "teach" us something....are going to have an enormous fit when they get to heaven! They will also not be able to learn anything new because there is no poverty and sickness there to "teach" them things. It's going to be a horrible experience for them! Traumatic!

The enemy wants us to believe poverty and sickness are good things so that he can stop the work of our loving Father to others that need our help!

God does not promise anyone wealth.

The wealth God promises is in our hearts, and eternity Yes he blesses some with money, but bot everyone.

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

He found the place to lay His head...

John 19:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] ... He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

The word "bowed" is the exact same greek word as "lay" in what you quotes in Matt 8:20

What a wonderful Savior we have!!

..no place to lay His head has absolutely nothing to do with poverty being evil...BTW Jesus had His own home...

Budman said:

Budman · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

Refusing the prosperity of the Lord at it's core is extreme self-centeredness ...characterized by a distorted view of our loving heavenly Father. The purpose of wealth is to be a blessing to others!!!

We take the admonitions in the bible against wealth in a totally wrong way, The bible warns about NOT trusting in riches and NOT in God..

1 Timothy 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.

Notice that it is God who richly supplies us with all thing to enjoy....

People who think that poverty and sickness are a virtue and from God sent to "teach" us something....are going to have an enormous fit when they get to heaven! They will also not be able to learn anything new because there is no poverty and sickness there to "teach" them things. It's going to be a horrible experience for them! Traumatic!

The enemy wants us to believe poverty and sickness are good things so that he can stop the work of our loving Father to others that need our help!

You really need to read this: What does the Bible say about being poor?

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Wealth is a relative term.... but I will give out this scripture anyway..

Deuteronomy 8:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

He wants us to have all of our needs met and to have plenty left over to be a blessing to other...

In most 3rd world countries they would say 99% of the people living in the US are wealthy....the term wealth is subjective..

Money is not evil... the love of money is the root of all evil tho...

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

God never promised anyone wealth, The passage you quoted was to a nation, not to individuals.

Your right, it is subjetive term But sadly, people preach it, and when someone does not get "wealthy" they blame God. so health and wealth is a dangerous doctrine.

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

I read it. I guess God didn't read this guys take on it because He gave wealth and riches to Solomon, Abraham, Issac, Jacob.

Jesus had a home..
Mark 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home.
And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.

The guys article is absolutely right that God is against people trusting in riches instead of God but to say God wants us poor is totally against the volume of scripture that says God gives us wealth so that we can be a blessing to others.

Budman said:

crossnote · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

Umm, I agree with most the chart on the HG side but I do see it unfair (3rd up from the bottom) to put repentance and confession as a means of "How to overcome sin". When a child confesses to his father he is not overcoming anything, he is healing a relationship gone a bit sour.

Grace777x70 · Dec 2, 2015

Hmmm I'm pretty sure that the nation of Israel consisted of people....selah If I was going to address a million people in one place and said I was giving them $100...I would bet anything everyone of them would be in the line-up to get that $100.

Just because people take the teachings wrong and "blame God is not a good reason not to embrace all the Lord has for us so we can bless others!

Health and wealth are good things.....poverty and sickness are evil things..

Acts 10:38 (KJV)
[SUP] [/SUP] How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

eternally-gratefull said:

Angela53510 · Dec 2, 2015

Grace777x70 said:

And the last one CHRIST-CONSCIOUS is the reason why this whole hyper-grace thing is totally wrong.

Back in the 1970's, I was in the New Age movement. For many, the goal of "spirituality" was to develop "Christ-consciousness."

The very use of that word, which you can find in many New Age books, but NOT the bible, tells me the entire hyper-grace movement needs to be thrown out.

We are to have Christ work in and through us. We are to renew out minds in Christ through the Holy Spirit. But never are we instructed that "the message makes me Christ-concious."

I am very glad you posted this chart, as it shows to me the underlying fallacy of the entire hypergrace movement.

Here is a quote from a New Age website. It says exactly what I was taught back in the 1970's.

"“Christ consciousness” is a term which means different things to different people.Some use it to mean the same as an ascended being, such as an ascended master or such as us after Ascension. The galactics often use it in this context.
Since the Fifth Dimension is the same as the Mental Plane on the spirit planes, it follows that it would also mean the state of consciousness attained by those who reach the Mental Planes. But those who are in the Mental Planes rarely refer to themselves as having Christ Consciousness, which has often caused me to ponder this particular usage. (See New Maps of Heaven.[1])
Some associate it with Brahmajnana or supposed “God Realization,” a state of samadhi attained when the kundalini or spiritual energy reaches the seventh or Crown chakra. At this state of enlightenment, the spiritual heart or hridayam opens but shuts again and the state of samadhi therefore is not permanent.
Others associate it with sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, which is a more advanced state of enlightenment, visible in Ramana Maharshi and (I believe) Adyashanti. At sahaja, the spiritual heart opens and does not shut again. This is the level of mukti or liberation, not Brahmajnana.
Still others use it as a synonym for “perfection.” But there is no perfection short of mergence with God which comes at a level probably well beyond the highest orders of angels. Paramahansa Yogananda used often to employ it to mean “the perfect man or woman.” “Christed being” is another probable example of this use of the term.
A few reserve it to mean an avatar or a descent of God into form. But if this were the case it could not be used for very many people and certainly would not apply to us, who are ascenders, and not descenders.
Some don’t use the term at all, such as Sri Ramakrishna, even though he was a great admirer of Christ and merged with him in one of his many spiritual experiences.
The “Christ” itself refers to the Light that we are – the Self, the Atman, the Buddha nature, the Child of God, pearl of great price, treasure buried in a field, measure of meal that leavened the whole loaf, or mustard seed that grew into a great tree.
The “Christ” is the “particle” of the Formless that is placed in the womb of Shakti, the Holy Spirit, who is the Divine Mother, mater, matter. (Note the Trinity here of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or Brahman, Atman, and Shakti – or, for that matter, Osiris, Isis and Horus.)"
What is Christ Consciousness? - Golden Age of Gaia

A google search reveals Deepak Chopra, Edgar Cayce (totally and absolutely a spiritist!) Blavatsky (Theosophy) as well as a bunch of "modern" philsophers use this term!

crossnote · Dec 2, 2015

Jas 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

My experience is when you've got the world's goodies in your lap, trusting and depending on God for your necessities TENDS to become only a doctrine.

Hyper grace

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member