Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

I agree that it is ridiculous that Christians think they can do whatever they want and sin because of grace ( which just shows they are not under grace )....but you have this taken out of complete context of what was being said...it's a common practice we have as people when we only "see" certain things.

Man your view of christianity is skewed if you truly believe that christians DON'T need to "bring forth any change" in our lives. The whole point of being a christian IS to produce fruitful changes in our lives!! ALL sin is unacceptable to God and will NOT get you into heaven unless they are repented of. Your statement of christians "being free to have affairs, get drunk, etc" is completely and utterly ridiculous..

 

[james57]

I have looked at that verse for awhile and I believe when we look at the context of this verse it sheds more light.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

We are sons and daughters of our Father now so get rid of everything that is not of Me.

What helped me is when I saw a gold bar drop in the mud..it was filthy..it defiled the outside of the bar but it did not chane the bar itself..the bar was still gold ( gold in the bible speaks of righteousness ).

Now adding some water over the muddy gold bar made it shine forth but at no time did the bar itself lose it's "goldness" or worth!

This is how we get cleansed.
Ephesians 5:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

We are cleaned by the Lord using the Word...we "repent" and agree with the word and thus we are submitting to God.

If only you accepted that a belief Paul is speaking as a Pharisee in Rom 7:14-25 DOES NOT mean a christian must be perfectly sinless you would be fine

 

[Grace777x70]

We are definitely free from sin as you say...it appears we can still yield to it which causes bad stuff to happen..

Do you agree with the following?


When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Rom 6:16-19


A person becomes a Christian and are a slave to sin. They are positionally justified immediately you can say before God, for Christ is their righteousness. However, they then have to be justified by faith in Christ in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin(where sin dominates/masters their life) into someone being led into holiness(sanctification begins Gal2:15-18) by the Spirit as they continue to trust in Christ.(

During all of this they are seen as perfect by their father in Heaven for Christ died for all their sins.

 

[james57]

The outer man (Adam) is a slave to sin. The inner man (Christ) is a slave to righteousness. The total man (both natures) becomes a slave to whichever he yields to.

Do you not know that to whomever you present yourselves [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whomever you obey, whether sin, [leading] to death, or obedience, [leading] to righteousness? Romans 6:16​

This is a day-to day walk. Not just a one-time thing.

​Therefore as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, be walking in him, Colossians 2:6​

You are a slave to sin as Paul means when the old nature completely dominates you. Can we use some discernment here?


If a person came to your church and were a drunk, swore like a trooper, was addicted to Gambling/stealing and was in and out of prison, would you say they can stay in that condition all their Christian life as they cannot do the good they want to do but rather the evil they do not want to do? Of course you wouldn't So why must such a person change, but at the same time none are perfect in the flesh?

Because a person such as described is a slave to sin in the context Paul speaks of. Sin utterly dominates their life. There are certain sins, that if not dealt with by their very nature stop you from being led into holiness. When sin(the old nature completely dominates your life, in that way according to Paul, you are sins slave

 

[Grace777x70]

Not sure..never really thought about it..interesting...I'll look at the term slave to sin and see what is there.

I do know that the word translated " slave" in romans 7:14 is not the same as in Romans 6:16

let's study it out this weekend and see what we come up with.

Whenever Paul uses the term slave to sin it is in the same context. A Christian cannot stay in that condition

If you can produce a statement of Pauls that say Christians remain as slaves to sin please do(apart from the contentious one obviously)

 

[james57]

Not sure..never really thought about it..interesting...I'll look at the term slave to sin and see what is there.

I do know that the word translated " slave" in romans 7:14 is not the same as in Romans 6:16

let's study it out this weekend and see what we come up with.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. rom6:14

[SUP] [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness 16

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:14


I will not study attempts to change what is plainly written. No offence, but I do not do that. Obviously the writers of the NIV believed the two verses meant the same thing. So you have no confidence in the NIV? Is it unreliable for Christians to read?
Not to me, but I rely on the Holy Spirit in me for conviction of truth

 

[Grace777x70]

Exactly...we die because sin is in our body in our flesh! The old man died..was crucified with Christ..we rose again with Him..He gave us a new nature..a new heart in the inner man. This "outer man" thing is just the body..the housing for our new inner man

2 Corinthians 4:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

We do not have the Adamic nature anymore in the new creation in Christ!..if we do..we are not in Christ.

Understanding the new birth and the new man in Christ is vital to our Christian lives. The Adamic nature is not in our new creation..only the residue of sin ( noun ) is still in our flesh in our body..

this is why we have the circumcision of Christ where our new man is cut away from our flesh. Study it out..it'll bless your socks off!

You are delusional if you think you do not still have the Adamic nature. You having the Adamic nature is why you must die.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe the scriptures teach we only have one nature. .we are not schizophrenic..we have an inner man of the heart circumcised from our flesh where sin is. That sin in our flesh wants to do stuff..bad stuff and we are told to yield to the Spirit and not the flesh.

when we diie...body stays in the grace with the sin that is in it.

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want Gal5:17

If you only have one nature, there wouldn't be any conflict

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are a slave to sin as Paul means when the old nature completely dominates you. Can we use some discernment here?

Paul says his flesh serves sin, not served (past tense). Yet he himself served righteousness because he would not allow the flesh to reign.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:25​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I believe the scriptures teach we only have one nature. .we are not schizophrenic..we have an inner man of the heart circumcised from our flesh where sin is. That sin in our flesh wants to do stuff..bad stuff and we are told to yield to the Spirit and not the flesh.

when we diie...body stays in the grace with the sin that is in it.

By saying that, it tells me that you really don't understand grace, and your understanding is compartmentalized, and not integrated and whole.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I believe the scriptures teach we only have one nature. .we are not schizophrenic..we have an inner man of the heart circumcised from our flesh where sin is. That sin in our flesh wants to do stuff..bad stuff and we are told to yield to the Spirit and not the flesh.

when we diie...body stays in the grace with the sin that is in it.

Having two conflicting thoughts doesn't make one schizophrenic. Nor does having two natures (one earthly, one spiritual). Make a choice and move on. It's when a person halts between the two and can't make a decision that a divided mind results.

 

[Grace777x70]

I do know that carnal = flesh in greek

I do know that the older versions of the NIV say "sinful nature" where they should have translated it "flesh".

They have recently corrected that in the new versions of the NIV.

Yes..the Holy Spirit leads us and reveals all of the Lord Jesus to us! he is our ultimate source!! Thank God!

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. rom6:14

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness 16

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:14


I will not study attempts to change what is plainly written. No offence, but I do not do that. Obviously the writers of the NIV believed the two verses meant the same thing. So you have no confidence in the NIV? Is it unreliable for Christians to read?
Not to me, but I rely on the Holy Spirit in me for conviction of truth

 

[Grace777x70]

Oppps..lol..it was supposed to say ..body stays in the grave...not the grace..lol..srory

By saying that, it tells me that you really don't understand grace, and your understanding is compartmentalized, and not integrated and whole.

 

[Grace777x70]

The battle is in the mind. An unrenewed mind in not knowing who we are in Christ = we give in to the urges of our body ( where that pesky sin in our flesh resides )..when we know who we are..then as you asy we are not slaves to sin anymore..we declare we are free in Christ and because of His grace we are not under the dominion of sin anymore.

That's the way I look at it.

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want Gal5:17

If you only have one nature, there wouldn't be any conflict

 

[james57]

Paul says his flesh serves sin, not served (past tense). Yet he himself served righteousness because he would not allow the flesh to reign.

This is plainly untrue in those verses, the flesh did reign:


We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.

So how did the flesh not reign in the above? The flesh won every time, it dominated Paul, he was its slave

 

[james57]

Paul says his flesh serves sin, not served (past tense). Yet he himself served righteousness because he would not allow the flesh to reign.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:25​

This is what Paul the Christian states:

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom 6:14

And he MUST be talking about the Adamic nature, for as you admitted, the other nature does not sin!

And the above is not compatible with rom 7:14-25, for in those verses sin was definitely Paul's master

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes..the flesh did reign..but then he found out the there in no condemnation to those in Christ..about walking according to the Spirit instead of the flesh..it's beautiful!

This is plainly untrue in those verses, the flesh did reign:


We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[SUP][d][/SUP] a slave to the law of sin.

So how did the flesh not reign in the above? The flesh won every time, it dominated Paul, he was its slave

 

[james57]

Yes..the flesh did reign..but then he found out the there in no condemnation to those in Christ..about walking according to the Spirit instead of the flesh..it's beautiful!

Great point!

When did Paul find out there was no condemnation for those in Christ who walk not according to the flesh but to the Spirit? When he became a Christian!

Is there any mention of the Holy Spirit in ch7 after verse 6? No!

When does the Holy Spirit get mentioned? ch8:2

 

[Grace777x70]

Hey james..send me a message with what you are saying ..I find it hard to piece things together from different posts..it's me..not you. I'd rather to sit down and read in one place what the thoughts are so that I can get a clearer understanding of what is being said...it is definitely a complex subject...lol

This is what Paul the Christian states:

For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace Rom 6:14

And he MUST be talking about the Adamic nature, for as you admitted, the other nature does not sin!

And the above is not compatible with rom 7:14-25, for in those verses sin was definitely Paul's master

 

[Grace777x70]

Good point! I think he is thinking as a Christian the whole time. I tend to believe he was just outlining the internal thinking of what was happening to him..kinda like setting up the scene of the crime before he gives the solution.

Great point!

When did Paul find out there was no condemnation for those in Christ who walk not according to the flesh but to the Spirit? When he became a Christian!

Is there any mention of the Holy Spirit in ch7 after verse 6? No!

When does the Holy Spirit get mentioned? ch8:2