Hyper grace

[blue_ladybug]

I don't think it is misinformed reasoning.

But why are you reluctant to confirm you will tell others of Christ in respect that as Christians they will be sold as slaves to sin and evil and unable to do the good they want to do. Surely you see that if you tell them that far more will become Christians, for then they are not obligated to bring any change forth from their lives. They are free to have affairs, get drunk etc, unless you are going to state which sins you believe are acceptable and unacceptable to attain to heaven.

Man your view of christianity is skewed if you truly believe that christians DON'T need to "bring forth any change" in our lives. The whole point of being a christian IS to produce fruitful changes in our lives!! ALL sin is unacceptable to God and will NOT get you into heaven unless they are repented of. Your statement of christians "being free to have affairs, get drunk, etc" is completely and utterly ridiculous..

 

[james57]

Man your view of christianity is skewed if you truly believe that christians DON'T need to "bring forth any change" in our lives. The whole point of being a christian IS to produce fruitful changes in our lives!! ALL sin is unacceptable to God and will NOT get you into heaven unless they are repented of. Your statement of christians "being free to have affairs, get drunk, etc" is completely and utterly ridiculous..

Can you read it again, and the conversation it pertains to. Then hopefully you will see what was being stated

 

[james57]

When you're ready to quit playing your game and have a mature discussion, I'm ready.

The thing is, that is where your belief leads.

Lynn put it very well. There is a difference between a Christian committing sin as they all do, and being a slave of sin.

When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Rom 6:16-19


A person becomes a Christian and are a slave to sin. They are positionally justified immediately you can say before God, for Christ is their righteousness. However, they then have to be justified by faith in Christ in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin(where sin dominates/masters their life) into someone being led into holiness(sanctification begins Gal2:15-18) by the Spirit as they continue to trust in Christ.(

During all of this they are seen as perfect by their father in Heaven for Christ died for all their sins.



But you believe you must sanctify yourself, put your flesh to death yourself. Therefore, as you cannot succeed yourself in doing that, the only answer is to believe Paul is speaking as a Christian in rom7:14-25

Who is better equipped for the sanctification process? You yourself, or Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Grace777x70]

The cry of the heart of David to "create in me a clean heart "...was a prayer answered from God to us New Covenant believers.

I completely understand when people sing that type of song. It's a desire to follow the Lord. It's a desire to know Him. These are good things!

However it is also a sign that we don't "see" our new creation in Christ. We end up asking for something that we already have but we are not acknowledging it. Our faith is make effective when we acknowledge who and what we are in Christ now.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

I firmly believe most of us Christians have a desire to follow the Lord !

But when we do not acknowledge who we are now in Christ and what He has done in His finished work for us - we start asking and doing things that are actually "denying" our Lord.

Is prayer good? Is the Word of God good? Does not God do what He says He will do?..of course! But if all this is used with the wrong information..this can harm us and keep us on a hamster wheel.

Here's an example:

God,..I kneel before You and ask that you would send us the promised Messiah as David and Isaiah talked about in Your Holy Word.

Even if I was to shed sincere desperate tears and spend hours in asking and pleading - it is all in vain.

We know that Jesus has come so because of our knowledge of the Lord we kneel and say:

Father, thank you for Your Son, our Lord Jesus! What a great salvation we have in HIM! What wonderful love You have for us!

Ephesians 3:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP] [/SUP].. that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
[SUP] [/SUP] may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Ephesians 1:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
.

Our New Covenant is full of the grace of God!

Behold!!!! All things are new!

Amen brother Grace777, for years we were told to pray and sing 'create in me a clean heart oh God.' It was a pretty song but in the new covenant we have that new heart. Unlike the believers in the old testament., we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and He doesn't come and go like He did back in the old testament. Another important truth to know for us in the new covenant of grace. We can learn a lot from one another.

In the old testament the Holy Spirit would come and leave people. But not so in the new covenant of grace. He comes INTO the believer and abides there and stays and seals until the day of redemption.
There are so many differences for the new covenant believer as we begin to study it out.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:

The Adamic nature is a slave to to sin. It always will be. It can never be made righteous, but our sinful nature is sanctified by the holy spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree james that it can refer to both things....good point!..either way..it's handled through increasing in the knowledge of Jesus!

I fully agree it is the choice of the christian how much they grow. You mentions bible reading. The amount of prayer time a person has each day I would add to that.
I agree not being able to do the good you want to do can refer to a new christian, but it could equally refer to Paul the Pharisee who ardently wanted to obey the ten commandments but couldn't.

 

[james57]

The Adamic nature is a slave to to sin. It always will be. It can never be made righteous, but our sinful nature is sanctified by the holy spirit.

Lynn put it very well. There is a difference between a Christian committing sin as they all do, and being a slave of sin.

When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:


You have too much of a theological mindset. You need to allow for spiritual understanding/enlightenment here

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Lynn put it very well. There is a difference between a Christian committing sin as they all do, and being a slave of sin.

When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:


You have too much of a theological mindset. You need to allow for spiritual understanding/enlightenment here

How does that address the point I made?

 

[james57]

How does that address the point I made?

The Adamic nature is a slave to to sin. It always will be.(your words)

Hence my post

Lynn put it very well. There is a difference between a Christian committing sin as they all do, and being a slave of sin.

When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:

 

[Grace777x70]

I think it was referring to whatever we "yield" ourselves to is what we are in bondage to..either to that parasite-sin which leads to death or to obedience to the Spirit that results in righteous behavior..

Absolutely, christians still sin but ARE NOT slaves of sin, that I it in a nutshell.

The person however mentions in ch7:14-24 was sold as a slave to sin, he said so in verse 14.
He said he could not do the good he wanted to.
Note he didn't say SOMETIMES I can do the good i want to. He said I CANNOT do the good I want but rather the evil I do not want to do this I keep on doing. He spoke of sin being his master, not a struggle where sometimes the flesh won and sometimes it lost.

 

[james57]

I think it was referring to whatever we "yield" ourselves to is what we are in bondage to..either to that parasite-sin which leads to death or to obedience to the Spirit that results in righteous behavior..

Whenever Paul uses the term slave to sin it is in the same context. A Christian cannot stay in that condition

If you can produce a statement of Pauls that say Christians remain as slaves to sin please do(apart from the contentious one obviously)

 

[james57]

I think it was referring to whatever we "yield" ourselves to is what we are in bondage to..either to that parasite-sin which leads to death or to obedience to the Spirit that results in righteous behavior..

Do you agree with the following?


When Paul mentions the term ''slave to sin'', it is always in the same context, the Christian cannot stay in that condition:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Rom 6:16-19


A person becomes a Christian and are a slave to sin. They are positionally justified immediately you can say before God, for Christ is their righteousness. However, they then have to be justified by faith in Christ in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin(where sin dominates/masters their life) into someone being led into holiness(sanctification begins Gal2:15-18) by the Spirit as they continue to trust in Christ.(

During all of this they are seen as perfect by their father in Heaven for Christ died for all their sins.

 

[Grace777x70]

If we still have the Adamic nature in us...we are not in Christ. He is the last Adam!

The parasite sin is in our flesh in our body...which is why it is called the "works" of the flesh....Folks..we have a new nature now in Christ in our inner man!..apart from the flesh..but we can still "yield" to the flesh..

Romans 8:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. .

The Adamic nature is a slave to to sin. It always will be. It can never be made righteous, but our sinful nature is sanctified by the holy spirit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If we still have the Adamic nature in us...we are not in Christ. He is the last Adam!

The parasite sin is in our flesh in our body...which is why it is called the "works" of the flesh....Folks..we have a new nature now in Christ in our inner man!..apart from the flesh..but we can still "yield" to the flesh..

You are delusional if you think you do not still have the Adamic nature. You having the Adamic nature is why you must die.

 

[james57]

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want Gal5:17

If you only have one nature, there wouldn't be any conflict

 

[PeterJens]

Conceptually you are admitting slavery.

"a Christian committing sin as they all do"

This is recognition of slavery, it is something inevitable. What Paul and the apostles are suggesting is this is now broken.
It is possible to walk without sinning.

Now that is the language. Once you get into sinning you are a slave to it, in other words the impulse causes an inevitable repeat etc. To say, oh you do sin, but that is not slavery, because you could choose not to, but you don't.

All the theology of grace etc fails, unless you believe what they are saying. Walking in the spirit sets you free.
But it is not a simple black and white, it is work, a battle, a choice. A slave cannot choose, a free person can.

So which do you walk in and claim?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want Gal5:17

If you only have one nature, there wouldn't be any conflict

That is why 1 John says we cannot sin. The indwelling incorruptible seed will not allow it to continue and conflict will result. Unbelievers do not have this restraining force, and so habitually sin without thought or conflict. That is how we know those who are born of GOD, and those who are not.

 

[james57]

Conceptually you are admitting slavery.

"a Christian committing sin as they all do"

This is recognition of slavery, it is something inevitable. What Paul and the apostles are suggesting is this is now broken.
It is possible to walk without sinning.

Now that is the language. Once you get into sinning you are a slave to it, in other words the impulse causes an inevitable repeat etc. To say, oh you do sin, but that is not slavery, because you could choose not to, but you don't.

All the theology of grace etc fails, unless you believe what they are saying. Walking in the spirit sets you free.
But it is not a simple black and white, it is work, a battle, a choice. A slave cannot choose, a free person can.

So which do you walk in and claim?

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8

 

[Grace777x70]

I have looked at that verse for awhile and I believe when we look at the context of this verse it sheds more light.

2 Corinthians 6:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

We are sons and daughters of our Father now so get rid of everything that is not of Me.

What helped me is when I saw a gold bar drop in the mud..it was filthy..it defiled the outside of the bar but it did not chane the bar itself..the bar was still gold ( gold in the bible speaks of righteousness ).

Now adding some water over the muddy gold bar made it shine forth but at no time did the bar itself lose it's "goldness" or worth!

This is how we get cleansed.
Ephesians 5:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

We are cleaned by the Lord using the Word...we "repent" and agree with the word and thus we are submitting to God.

And which of those natures would the following refer to?

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2Cor2:7

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The outer man (Adam) is a slave to sin. The inner man (Christ) is a slave to righteousness. The total man (both natures) becomes a slave to whichever he yields to.

Do you not know that to whomever you present yourselves [as] slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whomever you obey, whether sin, [leading] to death, or obedience, [leading] to righteousness? Romans 6:16​

This is a day-to day walk. Not just a one-time thing.

​Therefore as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, be walking in him, Colossians 2:6​