I love your long stupid posts because I know I never have to read past the first line. I never said I was Catholic at one time. Thanks be to God!
I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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I love your long stupid posts because I know I never have to read past the first line. I never said I was Catholic at one time. Thanks be to God!
Your definition of "Church" as exclusive only to "The Roman Catholic Church" is wrong on two counts. Our definition of OUR Church includes yours. Catholics have the right to define herself. It has nothing to do with how you define your church. And your quote is grossly misrepresented. (it always happens when catechism quotes are taken from anti-Catholic sources)
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[SUP]335[/SUP] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[SUP]336
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Here is more context:
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."[SUP]269[/SUP] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[SUP]270[/SUP] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[SUP]271
[/SUP]818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[SUP]272
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819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"[SUP]273[/SUP] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."[SUP]274[/SUP] Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[SUP]275[/SUP] and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."[SUP]276
here is the whole section[/SUP]
so you are dead wrong.
Pope John Paul II’s remark is consistent with the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Notice that he uses the word "reject" which, in context, means making a conscious decision against the Church that one knows to be founded by Jesus Christ.The Catechism of the Catholic Church text confirms this: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it" (CCC 846, emphasis added). (same as quoted above)
In other words, it only applies to Catholics.
There is that word "performing" again. You have a caricature of Catholicism not based in reality.
How about you post the source of your church's mission statement or confession of faith or summary of teachings.(if you have a church) Don't you believe your church is founded on Jesus Christ? If so, then what's the problem? It's not a problem for Catholics who include you in the Body of Christ, but it's a big problem for you to include Catholics as part of the Body of Christ . We hand you an ecumenical olive branch and you spit on it. Yet you say you are Christian and Catholics are not.
Exodus 12:43-45; Ezek. 44:9 - no one outside the "family of God" shall eat the lamb. Non-Catholics should not partake of the Eucharist until they are in full communion with the Church.
1 Cor. 11:30 - this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.
1 Cor. 11:27-30 - thus, if we partake of the Eucharist unworthily, we are guilty of literally murdering the body of Christ, and risking physical consequences to our bodies. This is overwhelming evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These are unjust penalties if the Eucharist is just a symbol.
Not serving Holy Communion to non-Catholics (generally) is not done out of exclusivity, but for their protection. It could make them physically sick.
Budman's words and your quotes have been exposed as fraudulent. Catholicism officially calls you a brother and look at the anti-Catholic hostility that infects this forum. Only Christians who fit your definition of Christian can be called Christian, with half of non-Catholics disagreeing with your definition. That looks pretty "separatist" to me. Your charge of "hostile separatists" is sheer hypocrisy.
The same. The way you and Budman butcher the catechism is a joke.
Hence your narrow-mindedness. tsk..... tsk..
You gotta really love this post.
Pax Christi
But the church, and even 'the Catholic church', are not the same as the Roman Catholic church, which in fact seceded from the Catholic church in 8th century AD.
The 'Catholic church' is outwardly made up of all Christians who believe in the Triune God and in the salvation offered though Jesus Christ. It does not matter what name they are given. Thus it includes all persuasions of Orthodox, the differing Catholic churches, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc etc. All make up 'the Catholic (universal) church. The Roman Catholic church only contains itself, whatever its claims. It has no jurisdiction outside its own sphere. Within the wider 'Catholic church', and a minority within it, are the true church made up of all true believers in the saving activity of Jesus Christ.
But the early church did not base itself on 'Scripture and tradition'. It based itself on Scripture alone. That is why there were all the discussions concerning what was true Scripture. They would have been meaningless if tradition was to be included anyway.
the church is NOT necessary for salvation, it is the RESULT of salvation. The church does not make us one with Christ. True faith in Jesus Christ makes us one with Christ. That is how we become members of His body, united with Him in His body. We are then given the designation 'the church' (the gathered ones).
the first true thing you have said yet. And we come directly to Him for both.
This is wholly untrue. It reveals a misunderstanding of the term 'body of Christ'. we become members of HIS body by being 'baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ' (1 Cor 12.13). When we truly believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit inundates (baptizo) us into Christ's body. We become one with Christ, a living part of the living Christ. This is what forms the true church. The church is a consequence of being saved, not the medium through whom we are saved.
Such nonsense. We believe and are baptised, but it is the belief which saves not the baptism (Eph 2.8-9). Any Christian can baptise us. It is simply a way by which we identify that we have become Christians. An hierarchical church is unnecessary. Indeed it interferes between the believer and Christ, vaunting itself.
As the Catholic church is not necessary in order for a person to be a Christian it is clear that this statement is meaningless. It is the Catholic church abrogating to itself something which only Jesus Christ can do for us. He alone can save us as we come personally to Him. Any believer can point to Him, but it is only Christ Who saves. This was where the church began to go wrong in the post-Apostolic period. It abrogated to itself the work that only Christ can do..
"...Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation..."
Who wrote the above paragraph?
1) Billy Graham
2) T.D. Jakes
3) Ian Paisley
4) Pat Robinson
5) Pope John Paul II
Why are you quoting from Pope John Paul II epostle? Do you not know he never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior? Do you not know the god Pope John Paul II Worshiped was Mary?
The fact is epostle that you and all the other Catholics Worship Mary as your god and I can prove it.
1. Catholicism teaches Mary was sinless.
2. Catholicism teaches Mary is our Mediator.
3. Catholicism teaches Mary can hear and answer prayers to her.
4. Catholicism teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
And the greatest lie ever told by the Catholic Church was replacing the nation Israel with Mary!
Face it epostle you are nothing more than a Cultist trying to replace God with Mary!
The fact is epostle that you and all the other Catholics Worship Mary as your god and I can prove it.
1. Catholicism teaches Mary was sinless.
2. Catholicism teaches Mary is our Mediator.
3. Catholicism teaches Mary can hear and answer prayers to her.
4. Catholicism teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
And the greatest lie ever told by the Catholic Church was replacing the nation Israel with Mary!
Face it epostle you are nothing more than a Cultist trying to replace God with Mary!
I haven't seen much evidence of Roman Catholics doing this on this site. Maybe you should have a word with them?
weren't you supposed to do this to VDP?
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I've noticed than whenever you feel you're losing the debate, you come up with some ridiculous excuse and put that person on ignore
Hence your narrow-mindedness. tsk..... tsk..
You gotta really love this post.
Pax Christi
Hi, Fordman! Still running I see!
I'm gonna keep re-posting this to you until you answer it:
You claimed that when Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran, it was simply out of "respect" for Islam and Muslims.
WHY would any true Christian show "respect" for a religion that is literally leading billions of people to hell?
It's the same as showing respect to Satanism, or Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, or any other religion that is damning souls!
Would you kiss the Satanic Bible, Ford? How about the book of Mormon? Would you kiss the Koran?
Will Muslims make it to heaven, Ford? How about Buddhists, Hindus, Satanists, Mormons, etc.?
Odd, you are going against one of your Popes who said:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her." (Pope Eugene: "Cantate Domino")
We protestants are "heretics" and "schismatics" because we refuse to submit to the authority of the Pope, and reject the notion that the sacraments are necessary for salvation.
So, nope. We are not included within the Catholic church - nor desire to be.
I have a copy of the Catechism downloaded. It didn't come from any "anti-catholic" source.
How in the world do you get the notion that it "only applies to Catholics"? Nowhere in the statement does it claim that. Christians also believe that the church was founded by Jesus, just not your church. Catholic means "universal" which is a good definition - but your kind have perverted Christ's universal church with your un-biblical doctrines. (Purgatory, Eucharist as a continual sacrifice for sins, penance for the forgiveness of sins, etc.)
Yet again, according to your so-called "church", without the Eucharist, people will not have their sins forgiven and they will be lost.
So, there is no way the RCC and Christian churches are in any way joined, or the same.
You do love your word games, don't you. Either way, it means the same - without them = no salvation, as taught by your "church".
It's the same thing as if a bunch of satanists, or muslims, or any other non-Christian sect offered an ecumenical olive branch - we will not be joined with anything that tramples the blood of Christ underfoot with wicked and false teachings.
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14)
Catholics are unbelievers in the Jesus of the Bible - you have another Jesus - one who's sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to cover all the sins of mankind.
Tell me fordman why do you hate Jesus Christ so much that you are willing to spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire?
Until you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will never be allowed to enter into Heaven fordman.
Is this really what you and epostle really want? Because God will allow both of you to keep on rejecting Him for the god of the Catholic Church.
Until you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will never be allowed to enter into Heaven fordman.
Is this really what you and epostle really want? Because God will allow both of you to keep on rejecting Him for the god of the Catholic Church.
Hence your narrow-mindedness. tsk..... tsk..
You gotta really love this post.
Good to see you back. You disappeared for a while after getting slammed on your stupid Catholic views. Glad to see you licked your wounds and came back for more.
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[TD="width: 100%"]Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces
by Father William G. Most
Closely related to the Catholic teaching on Mary's cooperation in the redemption is the teaching that, with through and under her Son, she is Mediatrix of all graces. What exactly does this mean?
The term Mediatrix in itself could refer to either the objective redemption (the once-for-all earning a title to grace for all men), to the subjective redemption (the distribution of this grace to individual men), or to both. It is most usual to use it to refer only to subjective redemption, i.e. , the process of giving out the fruits of the objective redemption, throughout all centuries. We must consider whether or not the term Mediatrix applies to all graces or only to some. We will ask also about the nature of the mediation: is it only by way of intercession, that is, does Mary simply pray to her Son that he may give us grace, or does God also use her as an instrument in distributing grace.
To begin, we can say without doubt that the title "Mediatrix" is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary.
The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:
... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.
This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer...."
We notice that Vatican II did not add the words "of all graces." However, as many papal texts point out, Mary's role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII,Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer...."
Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having "practically limitless power." St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the "neck" connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said "Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion." These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.
Objection
Protestants object to this , saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God's plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.
Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer--it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God's plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.
Really, the Father did not need her at all, except that if He decreed the incarnation, He necessarily decreed a Mother: she was and is that Mother. But everything else in which He has employed her is not needed.
Yet, if we recall the economy of redemption, it is clear that the Father wants everything to be as rich as possible, so that He will not stop with something lesser if there is more than can be done. Really, the incarnation in a palace, without death, would have been infinite in merit and satisfaction, as we have seen in the section on her cooperation in the redemption.
Further, the principle of St. Thomas helps here. In Summa Theologiae I. 19. 5. c., Thomas says that it pleases God to have one thing in place to serve as a title or reason for granting something further, even though that title does not move Him. It is His love of all goodness and good order that leads Him to act this way. Hence too, even though Calvary earned infinite forgiveness and graces, the Father wills to provide titles for giving out these, in the Mass. Even though He did not need even our Lady, yet He willed to employ her. Even though there is no need of any other saints, in objective or subjective redemption, yet He wills to add them--all to make everything, every title, as rich as possible.
Lumen gentium speaks of her as taking care of all her children. We are extremely numerous, but yet not infinite in number. Therefore, we are not too numerous for her to see and care for. For her capacity for that infinite vision of God is in proportion to her love on earth, so great that Pius IX, as we saw, said it was so great that "none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."
Is her mediation merely by intercession, prayer for us to her Son and to God the Father? Or does she also play a role in the distribution of graces from the Father through her Son to us? Many today, influenced by Protestant theology, tend to speak of grace merely as favor, and so say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power.
So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII,Iucunda semper, said:
"... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.'"
https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm[/TD]
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1.Catholicism teaches Mary was sinless.
3. Catholicism teaches Mary can hear and answer prayers to her.
4. Catholicism teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
1. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
3. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
4. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
And Roman catholics are told to pray this:
Holy mary mother of god
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death...
And is that "By a special grace of god,
and not of your own doing, too, lady?
If that's the case, how 'bout we just believe God
And trust in JESUS NOW,
and the hour of our death is covered!
{{{Jesus said unto her,
'I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believes in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
And whosoever lives and believes in me
shall never die.
Do you believe this?'}}}
~~~John11:25-26~~~
3. Catholicism teaches Mary can hear and answer prayers to her.
4. Catholicism teaches Mary was assumed into Heaven.
1. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
3. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
4. By a special grace of God and not of her own doing.
And Roman catholics are told to pray this:
Holy mary mother of god
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death...
And is that "By a special grace of god,
and not of your own doing, too, lady?
If that's the case, how 'bout we just believe God
And trust in JESUS NOW,
and the hour of our death is covered!
{{{Jesus said unto her,
'I am the resurrection, and the life:
he that believes in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
And whosoever lives and believes in me
shall never die.
Do you believe this?'}}}
~~~John11:25-26~~~
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