The Immaculate Conception Error

Vdp · Dec 6, 2015

Yes there are tens of thousands of Christian Churches all Worshiping God and NOT Worshiping Mary.

So what is your point fordman?

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

So tell me fordman, why does God say ALL have sinned and NONE are righteous? If Mary truly was born without sin then God would have said Mary was born without sin, because God clearly DID say Jesus was without sin.

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Since God did say Jesus was without sin God would also have to say Mary was without sin. Since God is very quiet on Mary being without sin proves Mary was born a sinner just like the rest of us.

Clearly what we have here is a Marian Cult trying desperately to justify their Worship of Mary as their god by twisting and misinterpreting the Scriptures, and yes fordman, the Catholic Church today is a Cult that Worships Mary as their god.

Like or not fordman you are a cultist trying desperately to over throw Jesus Christ and replace Him with your god Mary!

This is a Christian chat site discussing God and His Truths, not a Catholic chat site Worshiping Mary as a god!

So it would be best if you Catholics would just leave because we are here to discuss the Truth in the Bible, not to brainwash others into Worshiping Mary as a god.

fordman · Dec 6, 2015

KenAllan said:

Which you have yet to do

No you havent. You have yet to answer if those under the age of reason, those still in the womb, those born severly mentaly handicapped or in a vegetative state, or those under the effects of Anesthesiology are capible of comitting personal sin?

Thats just your personal opinion. I've shown you differntly, you just didn't like the answer.

Again you are incorrect. I follow the teachings of the Church which Christ founded and is with forever (Matthew 28:20) that interprets the Bible, as guided by the Holy Spirit, (Mark 13:11) for the "sheep" (the faithful). The Church (not individuals) interpret Scripture. In Catholicism, Scripture is there for meditation, prayer and inspiration, not for individual interpretation to formulate doctrine or dogma. Not some sects thats only been around for a couple of hunderd years (if that) or some fella with an $50 on-line pastors degree that opens a church in his garage.

Hell, Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible. Luther opened a "Pandora's Box" when he insisted that the Bible could be interpreted by individuals and that It is the sole authority of Christianity. Why do we have tens of thousand different non-Catholic Christian denominations? The reason is individuals' "different" interpretations of the Bible, thats why!
　

I've already showed your error in this reguards

Is that right, then maybe you can explain why many "Bible believing" non-Catholic denominations/sects who say "Jesus is Lord" have now ruled that Gay Marrige and Abortion are OK. This includes the likes of Lutherans, some Methodist churches, the United Church, Anglicans, Episcopalians etc. Is that from God's authority? No, I think not, that is their interpretation of Scripture. I have a problem with that. I think Jesus understood the human mind's capacity to rationalize its own wishes even with the Bible in hand, and while saying "Jesus is Lord." I believe we need a higher authority than millions of diverse and conflicting Christians with Bibles in their hands. Catholics think that the final word on the interpretation of Scripture falls on the authority to which Jesus appointed. (Mathew 16:18-19).
　

Normally KA, I usally just pass over your posts as nothing more than hate-filled drivel, but today I was feeling generous and thought I'd give you a few minutes of my time. In closing let me ask, Back on Valleyants post of #440, do you agree 100% of his personal interpretations of those Scripture passages? (or anyone else for that matter) If not, in what way do you disagree? Or would you agree that his interpretation of those passages (by his own admission) inspired by the Holy Spirit are correct, absolute, and free from error?

Have a good day.
　

Pax Christi

Cassian · Dec 6, 2015

VDP,

I find this quite ironic given the OP.

We have several who are bashing the RCC and they are just as incorrect as the RCC is on the topic.

Both the RCC and Protestants hold to the Original Sin theory. Meaning man is born with Adam's sin or guilt, or both. For the RCC to correct the error of Original Sin established the doctrine of IC to make Christ born without sin.

Protestants don't have a doctrine, they just make a lot of philosophical constructs to get around that Christ was born without sin even though every human being is born a sinner.

In both cases each has changed the human nature of Christ so that it is not even like unto ours, thus makes Christ a worthless entity since He will not be able to save man because He is not really man like us in every way except did not sin.

First, scripture does not support the fallacy of the Original Sin theory. Man is NOT born a sinner. It is an impossiblity aside from the fact that scripture makes it quite clear that sin nor guilt of one can be passed to another. Thus man is born as a mortal being, a fallen being, but not a sinner until one sins. So, one does not need all these additional false ideas to solve other false concepts.

fordman · Dec 6, 2015

Vdp said:

As does the Catholic Church.

To put it another way......A river or stream, can never be higher that its source. Likewise a creature (the Blessed Virgin Mary) can never be greater than its Creator. (God) And every Catholic knows that

Tens of thousands differnt non-Catholic denominations/sects equal; tens of thousand differnt interpretations of Scripture equals; disunity, confusion, and separation. All supposedly under the insperation of the Holy Spirit.

Thats my point!
　

Pax Christi

fordman · Dec 6, 2015

Magenta said:

Obviously the point I was trying to get across didn't click with ya. The point I was trying to make, is the fact whenever a Catholic crosses your morality line of refuring to someone by a name you find offensive, you pin on your morality police badge and give us a scolding. However, when a Catholic is receiving the same offensive behavior from a non-Catholic, they seem to get a pass, or should I dare say.... your blessing!

As for myself, I have pretty thick skin (Catholics have to in this forum)

and could care less what folks want to refure me too.
　
　

Pax Christi

　

fordman · Dec 6, 2015

Vdp said:

Maybe you'd like to take a crack at answering the question I put forth to K.A.? Are "ALL" those under the age of reason, those still in the womb, those born severly mentaly handicapped or in a vegetative state, or those under the effects of Anesthesiology are capible of comitting personal sin?

Than show in Scripture where it says she wasn't without sin?

Oh..... you mean the cult that has outlasted any other political or religious institution in history. A cult that promotes life from conception to natural death. A cult that respects all other religions and cultures. A cult that has among its adherents, intellectuals, philosophers, scientists, artists, academics as well as simpletons and the least educated in the most primitive of societies. A cult that doesn't require complete knowledge and full understanding of complex doctrines. A cult that has done more for the poor and needy than any other religious organization in the history of the world. A cult that has not wavered in its doctrine or morals from the moment it began. A cult whose message and connection with the Creator has changed the lives of billions throughout the ages. A cult that has inspired its proponents to create some of the most beautiful works of art, music and literature ever produced. A cult whose founder came to earth to suffer and die on a cross for all sinners and inspire untold thousands of its adherents to be martyred for their love of this founder and one another. Is that the cult you are speaking of?

let me tell you something Mr.Vdp, I have belonged to this cult since the day I was conceived, and am proud to call myself a Christian Catholic!

Jesus, I love you and this cult you started called The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Thank you for letting me be a member of this cult!
　

Lol.... Wow, didn't relize just how scared you are of us "Christian Catholics" until now!

　
　
　

Pax Christi

fordman · Dec 6, 2015

Vdp said:

And which one of these tens thousand of non-Catholic, Protestant churches do you belong?

I might have an idea of your answer already, but go ahead.

Pax Christi

Vdp · Dec 7, 2015

Yes fordman you are a cultist promoting Mary as your god.

Clearly God say ALL have sinned and NONE are righteous. Trying to justify your believe that Mary was sinless by insisting babies are sinless will not work.

Read these verses again!

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

ALL have sinned and NONE are righteous!

ALL includes everybody! None means nobody!

Here is the answer to all your questions! Listen to what God has said instead of listening to your god Satan!

valiant · Dec 7, 2015

fordman said:

As far as we know, yes. All have a conscience therefore all can personally sin. Just because we can't fathom it does not mean that it is not so.

what a foolish statement. The Positive statements 'all have sinned' and 'there is none who does good and does not sin' both show conclusively that she was a sinner. And this is confirmed by her life story. She carelessly and foolishly left her 12 year old son alone in Jerusalem where anything could have happened to Him. She later tried to interfere with His ministry so that He repudiated her.

So any statement that she was without sin would have been (and was) repudiated immediately.

fordman · Dec 7, 2015

Vdp said:

Oh....once again, you mean the cult that has outlasted any other political or religious institution in history. A cult that promotes life from conception to natural death. A cult that respects all other religions and cultures. A cult that has among its adherents, intellectuals, philosophers, scientists, artists, academics as well as simpletons and the least educated in the most primitive of societies. A cult that doesn't require complete knowledge and full understanding of complex doctrines. A cult that has done more for the poor and needy than any other religious organization in the history of the world. A cult that has not wavered in its doctrine or morals from the moment it began. A cult whose message and connection with the Creator has changed the lives of billions throughout the ages. A cult that has inspired its proponents to create some of the most beautiful works of art, music and literature ever produced. A cult whose founder came to earth to suffer and die on a cross for all sinners and inspire untold thousands of its adherents to be martyred for their love of this founder and one another. The cult that worships God and God only. But venerates his mother, The Blessed Virgin Mary. Is that the cult you are talking about?
　

Nice dodge! Does this mean you are not sure if "ALL" those under the age of reason, those still in the womb, those born severly mentaly handicapped or in a vegetative state, or those under the effects of Anesthesiology are capible of comitting personal sin?
　
　

p.s. Couldn't help but notice you completely ignored my post #487. Why is that? I'll repost:

"And which one of these tens of thousand non-Catholic, Protestant churches do you belong"

Pax Christi

epostle · Dec 7, 2015

epostle said:

No one has touched that one. Matt Slick says healing and repentance are the work of Satan.

Roberth said:

That does not prove The Blessed Virgin Mary was a sinner. It proves that all people without salvation are unrighteous, that is, not even one is righteous. Without being aware of it, you are saying Jesus' own mother is not saved.
Examples of righteousness in scripture:

that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Mat 5:45)

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.(Mat 9:13)

Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. (Mat 10:41)

For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. (Mat 13:17)

I have 22 more if you want to see them. You seem to have a Calvinist "Total Depravity" view.

The claim that the BVM gave birth only to the human half of Jesus is a heresy called Nestorianism. I suggest you look that up. Most evangelicals are Nestorian without realizing it.

When Jesus says, "There is none good but one, that is, God..." He is referring to himself, His Divinity. Mary has nothing to do with this verse because Mary is not divine, but a human being. This has been the constant teaching of the Church, contrary to psychotic ramblings of certain anti-Catholic bigots.

There are lots of non-Catholics that disagree with you, including all the early reformers. You can be in PROTEST to Protestant reformers and form/join any church that suits you. Claiming you are not Protestant is Protestantism to the core. Non-denominationalism is a denomination, there is no way around it.

The doctrine hinges on the meaning of "Full of Grace", which I have repeatedly posted from various Protestant Greek scholars on this thread, and on the typology of the Ark of the Covenant revealed in the Ark of the New Covenant, with copious amounts of scripture. You just ignore them.

Roberth said:

valiant · Dec 7, 2015

fordman said:

Oh....once again, you mean the cult that has outlasted any other political or religious institution in history. A cult that promotes life from conception to natural death. A cult that respects all other religions and cultures. A cult that has among its adherents, intellectuals, philosophers, scientists, artists, academics as well as simpletons and the least educated in the most primitive of societies. A cult that doesn't require complete knowledge and full understanding of complex doctrines. A cult that has done more for the poor and needy than any other religious organization in the history of the world. A cult that has not wavered in its doctrine or morals from the moment it began. A cult whose message and connection with the Creator has changed the lives of billions throughout the ages. A cult that has inspired its proponents to create some of the most beautiful works of art, music and literature ever produced. A cult whose founder came to earth to suffer and die on a cross for all sinners and inspire untold thousands of its adherents to be martyred for their love of this founder and one another. The cult that worships God and God only. But venerates his mother, The Blessed Virgin Mary. Is that the cult you are talking about?
　

Nice dodge! Does this mean you are not sure if "ALL" those under the age of reason, those still in the womb, those born severly mentaly handicapped or in a vegetative state, or those under the effects of Anesthesiology are capible of comitting personal sin?
　
　

p.s. Couldn't help but notice you completely ignored my post #487. Why is that? I'll repost:

"And which one of these tens of thousand non-Catholic, Protestant churches do you belong"

Pax Christi

come off it fordman. you know perfectly well that the Roman Catholic church was not founded until 8th century AD when it seceded from the universal church.

fordman · Dec 7, 2015

valiant said:

As far as we know? So in other words, like Vdp, you too are not sure.
　

And who is this "we" you speak of ? Maybe you and the "we" you speak of can't fathom it, but I can. For the God I beleive in is a loving and merciful God, without limitations.

I'll address your personal opinion and interpretation of Scripture on this matter later Valleyant, for now I'm leaving to take my 16 y.o. grandson to take his drivers licence test.
　
　

Pax Christi

epostle · Dec 7, 2015

fordman said:

Awesome post!
　

"ALL have sinned" is the "gotcha verse" that doesn't work.

Rom. 3:23 "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

(this logic escapes those with blind prejudiced which is why they repeat the "ALL" gotcha verse over and over again).

Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.
　
　

p.s. Couldn't help but notice you completely ignored my post #487. Why is that? I'll repost:

"And which one of these tens of thousand non-Catholic, Protestant churches do you belong"

Pax Christi[/QUOTE]

Vdp · Dec 7, 2015

ALL have sinned is not about original sin.

Where in the Scriptures does God say the infants, the retarded and the senile cannot sin? I can tell you its not in the Scriptures, its been made up by you epostle.

Its not in the Scriptures because God clearly has said ALL have sinned. Jesus was the exception to ALL have sinned because Jesus is God. Mary is not God, therefore Mary was a sinner.

Will you ever accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior epostle? Or will you keep on rejecting Jesus to follow Mary instead?

Enouch and Elijah were taken up into the future. These are the two witnesses in the "End Times'.

Revelation 11:3-6
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Why do you hate Jesus Christ so much epostle? Why did God ever do to you to deserve your hatred of Him?

epostle · Dec 7, 2015

==========

Magenta · Dec 7, 2015

Roman Catholics are very practiced at ignoring the truth.

epostle · Dec 7, 2015

Scripture Supporting Original Sin

Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

Magenta · Dec 7, 2015

epostle said:

Most Catholics deny the sin nature exists in all. In fact they are not allowed to accept that it exists in all. It is mandatory for Roman Catholics to deny Scripture.

All does not mean all for Roman Catholics.

The RCC made up the so-called infallible doctrine of the immaculate conception for Mary so she could be preserved from the stain of sin, not just at her conception, but for her whole life, according to the RCC! Accoeding to the RCC, Mary needed to be sinless so that Jesus Christ, the living Son of God, could be sinless.

The RCC does not accept that sin affects all people. They normally teach otherwise, so it is interesting to see you posting Scripture that refutes the RCC view.

Again, the RCC teaches that sin does not affect all people.

LOL. Do you read what you copy and paste?

All includes Mary, quite contrary to RCC teaching.

KenAllan · Dec 7, 2015

Again epostle and fordman God clearly says ALL have sinned and NONE are righteous which applies to me, to you, and to Mary.

I do believe the reason you Catholics refuse to accept the Truth from God is because none of you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

The road to the gate to God is winding and narrow and not everybody finds it.

Matthew 7:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way.

I truly believe the reason the Catholics teach the doctrine of Mary being without sin is because they have not found God yet. They are still walking in the darkness and have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Repent epostle, repent fordman and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior before its too late.

The Immaculate Conception Error

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