the rapture

[PlainWord]

You're wrongly applying a spiritual metaphor in the physical sense. Like I said before, there's a reason why Jerusalem is compared spiritually to Sodom and Egypt in that time (Rev.11:8). It will be because of false idol worship there in the end, the very thing that began in ancient historical Sumer-Babylon that migrated to ancient Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome, etc.

Actually, this is what you are doing. If John intended to describe literal Jerusalem when he said, "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where our Lord also was crucified" he simply would have said Jerusalem. But he didn't. He didn't because he was describing something other than a literal place. John was discussing a spiritual power or condition, not a literal place. Of course Christ was crucified literally outside of Jerusalem so John does not need to reveal this fact to us or the churches. John was telling us that the same Satanic evil forces (Sodom = wickedness; and Egypt = worship of false gods) will be the same spiritual wicked powers that in the end will kill the two churches.

John uses the below symbolism and calls them a mystery.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Therefore a LAMPSTAND = a CHURCH

You don't have to guess about this. John isn't going to tell us that a Lampstand is a church in Rev 1 then use the same symbol to represent a person in Rev 11. Thus if a lampstand is a church in Rev 1, then the two witnesses (lampstands) in Rev 11 are also churches.

I already proved that these are not literal men. Men do not breathe literal fire from their mouths to destroy their enemies. We don't see fire breathing men anywhere in the Bible. But hey, if you want to think the two witnesses are two literal fire breathing men who get killed by a beast which crawls up from the ground, you go right ahead. I'm going to see this passage tying to the "falling away" of 2 Thes 2 and the beast overcoming the saints in Rev 13 and Dan 7 rather than introducing a new concept that was never discussed anywhere else.

So when the world system comes to end on that day, so will Babylon applied to Jerusalem in the spiritual sense also be destroyed and never be found again. When our Lord Jesus returns, that will end the Babylon system upon this earth.

Now you are spiritualizing Babylon. Sodom and Egypt = Babylon system????

Rev.13:1-2 is about a kingdom beast. That's why in Rev.13:2 Jesus used the beast kingdom animals of Dan.7 in comparison with it. It's that 1st beast kingdom that receives the deadly wound, not the second or "another beast" mentioned later.

Agreed Rev 13:1-2 describes a beast kingdom and that it ties to Dan 7. Disagree that it is the first beast kingdom that receives a deadly wound. Where is your support for that? A "Mountain" is not a Beast Kingdom!! A mountain is a religion or spiritual belief system. A Beast is a kingdom. A head = A mountain = A religion or system of worship. A beast isn't carrying another beast; beast carry or support false religions. It is all about false worship to God (Exod 20).

Isaiah 2:2
Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord’s house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.

Isaiah is telling us that in the latter days God's "mountain" (or true worship of the true God) will be established above all other religions. Guess what?? Christianity is the largest faith on the planet. The "latter days" began when Christ rose from the dead.

The Rev 13 passage tells us "one of the heads," (or false worship system) not the first head, was mortally wounded. I'm telling you that it was the seventh head that was wounded. Now please look at this:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues."

The people described here are waters made up of different multitudes, nations and languages. These are Muslims. They come from all over the world during the Haj to worship at Mecca and to circle and bow down to the Kaaba Stone "a meteor which has fallen from the sky." This point is hugely significant. Now, take the symbol "MOUNTAIN" (Religion) together with WATER or SEA (multitudes of people) and look at this verse in a new light:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The GREAT MOUNTAIN is ISLAM
The SEA are PEOPLE
THIRD PART OF THE SEA (PEOPLE) ARE SPIRITUALLY KILLED - These are Muslims

Those who follow ISLAM have died spiritually and are predestined for damnation. They are mentioned several times here:


Revelation 13:8

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from thefoundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

and here in Rev 14:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he...shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This is pretty sobering stuff. Remember what Paul teaches in Gal 4?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic... “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

HAGAR = EGYPTIAN = FLESH = ISHMAEL = MUSLIMS = SPIRITUAL DEATH

[SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem...

Two covenants, two spiritual cities. Where is MECCA located? Arabia???

Rev.17:15 is describing that first beast, a kingdom, and it will include all nations upon the earth. It's basically the one-world government system we're seeing being completed today, but it will turn into a world kingdom when the pseudo-Christ arrives in Jerusalem, as he will be king over it.

No my friend. That's a diversionary tactic used by Satan to keep our eyes off the real threat which is ISLAM. ISLAM is the final of the beast's religions. It is the one that copies Christianity. Satan is Allah!! Right now 1/4 of the world is Muslims. Once the church is taken out (overcome and killed and end up as the Great Multitude in Heaven) then ISLAM will make up 1/3 of mankind.

 

[popeye]

Actually, this is what you are doing. If John intended to describe literal Jerusalem when he said, "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where our Lord also was crucified" he simply would have said Jerusalem. But he didn't. He didn't because he was describing something other than a literal place. John was discussing a spiritual power or condition, not a literal place. Of course Christ was crucified literally outside of Jerusalem so John does not need to reveal this fact to us or the churches. John was telling us that the same Satanic evil forces (Sodom = wickedness; and Egypt = worship of false gods) will be the same spiritual wicked powers that in the end will kill the two churches.

John uses the below symbolism and calls them a mystery.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Therefore a LAMPSTAND = a CHURCH

You don't have to guess about this. John isn't going to tell us that a Lampstand is a church in Rev 1 then use the same symbol to represent a person in Rev 11. Thus if a lampstand is a church in Rev 1, then the two witnesses (lampstands) in Rev 11 are also churches.

I already proved that these are not literal men. Men do not breathe literal fire from their mouths to destroy their enemies. We don't see fire breathing men anywhere in the Bible. But hey, if you want to think the two witnesses are two literal fire breathing men who get killed by a beast which crawls up from the ground, you go right ahead. I'm going to see this passage tying to the "falling away" of 2 Thes 2 and the beast overcoming the saints in Rev 13 and Dan 7 rather than introducing a new concept that was never discussed anywhere else.



Now you are spiritualizing Babylon. Sodom and Egypt = Babylon system????



Agreed Rev 13:1-2 describes a beast kingdom and that it ties to Dan 7. Disagree that it is the first beast kingdom that receives a deadly wound. Where is your support for that? A "Mountain" is not a Beast Kingdom!! A mountain is a religion or spiritual belief system. A Beast is a kingdom. A head = A mountain = A religion or system of worship. A beast isn't carrying another beast; beast carry or support false religions. It is all about false worship to God (Exod 20).

Isaiah 2:2
Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain of the Lord’s house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.

Isaiah is telling us that in the latter days God's "mountain" (or true worship of the true God) will be established above all other religions. Guess what?? Christianity is the largest faith on the planet. The "latter days" began when Christ rose from the dead.

The Rev 13 passage tells us "one of the heads," (or false worship system) not the first head, was mortally wounded. I'm telling you that it was the seventh head that was wounded. Now please look at this:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues."

The people described here are waters made up of different multitudes, nations and languages. These are Muslims. They come from all over the world during the Haj to worship at Mecca and to circle and bow down to the Kaaba Stone "a meteor which has fallen from the sky." This point is hugely significant. Now, take the symbol "MOUNTAIN" (Religion) together with WATER or SEA (multitudes of people) and look at this verse in a new light:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

The GREAT MOUNTAIN is ISLAM
The SEA are PEOPLE
THIRD PART OF THE SEA (PEOPLE) ARE SPIRITUALLY KILLED - These are Muslims

Those who follow ISLAM have died spiritually and are predestined for damnation. They are mentioned several times here:


Revelation 13:8

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from thefoundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

and here in Rev 14:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he...shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This is pretty sobering stuff. Remember what Paul teaches in Gal 4?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic... “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

HAGAR = EGYPTIAN = FLESH = ISHMAEL = MUSLIMS = SPIRITUAL DEATH

[SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem...

Two covenants, two spiritual cities. Where is MECCA located? Arabia???


No my friend. That's a diversionary tactic used by Satan to keep our eyes off the real threat which is ISLAM. ISLAM is the final of the beast's religions. It is the one that copies Christianity. Satan is Allah!! Right now 1/4 of the world is Muslims. Once the church is taken out (overcome and killed and end up as the Great Multitude in Heaven) then ISLAM will make up 1/3 of mankind.

Verse 8 is a meteor.

Sea is not people there. Ships and sea creatures do not operate in/on people

 

[popeye]

Partially correct, partially wrong. Paul was speaking of the Jerusalem in bondage and it indeed is different than the Jerusalem which comes down from heaven. Also correct that there are plenty of prophecies remaining for Jerusalem, both OT and NT.

Incorrect in thinking that the current (old) Jerusalem is the location of Mystery Babylon's Great City. When Christ returns at the beginning of Rev 18 He announces that Babylon has fallen. Then another angel announces several times the destruction of Babylon.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’

For in one hour she is made desolate.’

“Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

The above describes a "Great (not because of size but wickedness) City" being destroyed by fire in one hour. The City will become desolate and not found. But the end is not here. New Jerusalem does not come down to replace this city because ship masters are standing off the coast and mourning her.

Burned with Fire
Destroyed in one hour
Made Desolate (uninhabited)
Found No More

Can this be said of Jerusalem? Jerusalem is going to go through a fierce battle and many will be killed. But it is not totally destroyed. Zechariah describes the scene in Jerusalem in Chapter 14 and Jerusalem is clearly identified where Babylon is not:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

In the above we see that half of Jerusalem is captured (Not utterly destroyed) and that a remnant of the people are still in the city!! We see a conventional war being fought, not utter destruction in one hour.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

Then we see that the Lord comes and fights in Jerusalem and stands on the Mount of Olives. If Babylon is/was Jerusalem there would be nobody there for the Lord to fight because we are told that Babylon is utterly destroyed, found no more and made desolate.



I am not moving Rev 13 to Mecca. Rev 13:1-10 deals with the Beast of the Sea located in the region of Iraq and Syria. There are several concepts or aspects of Islam being discussed. You have the BEAST which is a political power. You have the Harlot, which is the religion they follow then destroy. And you have the Great City which is the center of their worship. All of these point to ISLAM. The Jews are not going to destroy their faith.



Mat 24:2 dealt with the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, not some future 3rd temple. I agree that if the Dome of the Rock is still standing by the time Christ returns, he will obliterate it.



This very well could be true.



Yet we continue to arm everyone in the middle east so that they can fight this final war. Banning guns in the US will never happen and if it does, we will have a civil war here.



Lawlessness abounds. We are in the time of the Beginning of Sorrows:


Matthew 24:12

And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

This lawlessness was already at work in Paul's day and continues. I submit to you that the unopposed killing of Christians and worshiping ISLAM is lawlessness.

Now you have"great city",according to you,as small but wicked.

Dude ,this is lame.

You are getting bizarre with this Muslim thingy.

 

[PlainWord]

The Harlot of Rev.17 is the "great city" mentioned in the very last verse of that chapter. It does not represent a religion, it's about a certain city where the pseudo-Christ will reign the rest of the nations and peoples from.

No, no, no!!! The HARLOT is the MOTHER OF ALL FALSE RELIGIONS and is ALSO a CITY.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Jerusalem isn't reigning over all "kings" or any king. Name me a Jewish king alive today? Mecca reigns over ALL OF THE MUSLIM KINGS. The Qaran states that ALL MUSLIMS must do a pilgrimage to MECCA once in their lifetime. Therefore MECCA has power over every MUSLIM. They must face MECCA and bow down towards MECCA 5 times a day. Such requirements do not exist for Jews or Christians relative to Jerusalem.

It will be Jerusalem, because that is where the "abomination of desolation" our Lord Jesus warned us about is to occur. For that "abomination of desolation" event to occur, it requires another Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end, and sacrifices started up again. That will be the "temple of God" that Apostle Paul told us about the false one will sit in playing God (2 Thess.2:4). The orthodox Jews today have long since had the materials ready to build that third temple, even cornerstones cut.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the A of D is set up in a new 3rd Jewish man made temple and that the so-called AntiChrist goes there claiming to be God. What makes you think that means Jerusalem has to be destroyed? Read Dan 11:29-45. Do you see any hint of Jerusalem being destroyed there?

 

[PlainWord]

Now you have"great city",according to you,as small but wicked.

Dude ,this is lame.

You are getting bizarre with this Muslim thingy.

It's bigger than Jerusalem:

Population of Mecca, Saudi Arabia Population

The population of Mecca, Saudi Arabia is 1,323,624 according to the GeoNames geographical database.

_______________________________________________________________

Jerusalem’s population at the end of 2011 was 804,400, making the capital the largest municipality in Israel by a considerable margin, according to figures released by the Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) ahead of Jerusalem Day Wednesday.

Mecca is nearly twice the size of Jerusalem yet you won't consider it a great city from a size prospective yet you have no problem seeing Jerusalem as a great city based on its size.

This Muslim "thingy" is going to kill virtually all of us.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

[PlainWord]

Verse 8 is a meteor.

Sea is not people there. Ships and sea creatures do not operate in/on people

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Now why would Satan want to kill all the fishes in the sea? EARTH AND SEA is not land and oceans. The EARTH and SEA are used here too:

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

The SEA and EARTH used above are not literal!! They are places where people dwell. It has nothing to do with sea creatures. You just don't understand Biblical symbols. No wonder you think there will be a pre-trib rapture fly away to heaven.

 

[DP]

And you just did what?

Ignore the obvious analogy with Noah as the ingredient of Gods dealing with his people

All you see Is "tribulation"

Tell us about Noah.
Tell us what became of him post flood,in relation to a postrib deliverance that you guys adhere to.

Will await that observation.

You're heeding doctrines of men, because you don't even realize the relation of the flood used as a metaphor for the end that our Lord Jesus gave in Revelation and His Olivet Discourse. One would have to have studied the OT prophets first to know that, which those men you listen to clearly have not.

 

[DP]

Actually, this is what you are doing. If John intended to describe literal Jerusalem when he said, "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where our Lord also was crucified" he simply would have said Jerusalem. But he didn't. He didn't because he was describing something other than a literal place. John was discussing a spiritual power or condition, not a literal place. Of course Christ was crucified literally outside of Jerusalem so John does not need to reveal this fact to us or the churches. John was telling us that the same Satanic evil forces (Sodom = wickedness; and Egypt = worship of false gods) will be the same spiritual wicked powers that in the end will kill the two churches.

I am holding to the symbology given there in Rev.11:8 about literal physical Jerusalem. You are not. Again, see Isaiah 1 where God used pagan places to describe His people's false worship in Jerusalem. Better yet, study Ezekiel 8 to see how they do that right inside the temple in Jerusalem making Him jealous.

I know you and your Jewish brethren hate the idea of Jerusalem being associated with the false idol worship at the end of this world, but that is what Christ is revealing in His Revelation to John. Jesus even told those of His servants living in Jerusalem in the time when they see that "abomination of desolation" idol setup, to get out of that area, and for those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem in that time (Luke 21; Mark 13).

John uses the below symbolism and calls them a mystery.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Therefore a LAMPSTAND = a CHURCH

You don't have to guess about this. John isn't going to tell us that a Lampstand is a church in Rev 1 then use the same symbol to represent a person in Rev 11. Thus if a lampstand is a church in Rev 1, then the two witnesses (lampstands) in Rev 11 are also churches.

God's two witnesses will be two flesh men in Jerusalem who will be killed with their dead bodies left laying in the street for 3.5 days, as written there in Rev.11. Because the symbol of two candlesticks is also mentioned along with them, that is pointing to two Churches also. The event of Christ's servants that are delivered up in the end to give a Witness for Christ against them is going to be an event happening not just in Jerusalem, but on a world-wide scale.

I already proved that these are not literal men. Men do not breathe literal fire from their mouths to destroy their enemies. We don't see fire breathing men anywhere in the Bible. But hey, if you want to think the two witnesses are two literal fire breathing men who get killed by a beast which crawls up from the ground, you go right ahead. I'm going to see this passage tying to the "falling away" of 2 Thes 2 and the beast overcoming the saints in Rev 13 and Dan 7 rather than introducing a new concept that was never discussed anywhere else.

Well, no, you have not proven that. What you offer on it is conjecture. Even your not understand the fire out of their mouths shows how you've missed understanding it. See Mark 13 again what Jesus told those who are to be delivered up to councils and synagogues (churches) to give a Witness for Him during the tribulation. And in the days of Elijah, we do discover fire rained down from Heaven by God to singularly destroy bands of 50 men.

Now you are spiritualizing Babylon. Sodom and Egypt = Babylon system????

You mean you're not familiar with the start of pagan idol worship in ancient Sumer which later became Babylonia and Babylon? That is where worship of Bel (and thus the Baal system) first began, with Sargon I. The Assyriologist Sayce put the time of his arrival among the ancient Sumerians originally at 3800 B.C. They called him 'son of Bel' (son of the dragon). His metal death mask is in the British museum, showing he was a Semite. That is where false pagan idol worship first began, which later pagan nations followed.

In Rev.11:8, Christ is using pagan Sodom and Egypt in the spiritual sense to represent fallen Jerusalem in that future time of God's two witnesses in Jerusalem. Again, see Isaiah 1 for like references to Jerusalem using pagan references.

Agreed Rev 13:1-2 describes a beast kingdom and that it ties to Dan 7. Disagree that it is the first beast kingdom that receives a deadly wound. Where is your support for that? A "Mountain" is not a Beast Kingdom!! A mountain is a religion or spiritual belief system. A Beast is a kingdom. A head = A mountain = A religion or system of worship. A beast isn't carrying another beast; beast carry or support false religions. It is all about false worship to God (Exod 20).

If you disagree it's that 1st beast, a kingdom, that receives the "deadly wound" of Rev.13, then you are disagreeing with the Scripture as written there:

Rev 13:12
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


If you're not going to stay with the Scripture as written, then I'm just wasting my time with you.

 

[eternallife7]

So I want to learn a little bit more about the Rapture from what I read I'm starting to see a lot of signs in the world I like what I message was church the other day it was are you living a Christian life outside of church are you going with the Rapture are you staying even though you go to church doesn't mean you're always living the word.plese help by answering whats the mark of the beast really mean.and our we not gonna be able to eat and stuff

Most preachers are keeping people under the bondage of the law.

 

[DP]

No, no, no!!! The HARLOT is the MOTHER OF ALL FALSE RELIGIONS and is ALSO a CITY.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Jerusalem isn't reigning over all "kings" or any king. Name me a Jewish king alive today? Mecca reigns over ALL OF THE MUSLIM KINGS. The Qaran states that ALL MUSLIMS must do a pilgrimage to MECCA once in their lifetime. Therefore MECCA has power over every MUSLIM. They must face MECCA and bow down towards MECCA 5 times a day. Such requirements do not exist for Jews or Christians relative to Jerusalem.

Ancient Babylon is the mother of harlots, the original beginning of pagan idol worship. And that false worship trekked to other nations, and even had its stay among old Israel when they fell to it, which is why God removed the majority of the children of Israel (ten tribes) and caused the king of Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and take the Jews captive to Babylon for 70 years. Yet He remembered His promise to David and to Jerusalem that there would always be "one tribe" left in Jerusalem (1 Kings 11), and that was the remnant of Israelites that returned after that 70 years captivity.

Right, as of TODAY, there is no king with a kingdom ruling in Jerusalem. But that Revelation prophecy is for the time when the pseudo-Christ arrives in Jerusalem, the "league" of Dan.11 is made, and then later the "abomination of desolation" idol is set in place there. That's another reason why... we know that "great city" is not Mecca, nor Rome, nor New York, but Jerusalem only in a certain timeframe, i.e., the time of "great tribulation" which is the "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying (Matt.24; 1 Thess.5).

When the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ shows up in Jerusalem, and rises to power, he will be the beast king of Rev.17, the seventh. That will be the devil himself, the king of the bottomless pit of Rev.9. He is coming to play Christ Who is our True King. That's why that false one is called the pseudo-Christ in the Matt.24:24 Scripture in the Greek, and why our Lord Jesus warned us when others say He is here, or there, to not believe it. THAT... will be the time when Jerusalem will become the "great city" ruling over all the kings of the earth, specifically the ten kings (ten horns) pointed out in Rev.17 that rule with the beast for one hour.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that the A of D is set up in a new 3rd Jewish man made temple and that the so-called AntiChrist goes there claiming to be God. What makes you think that means Jerusalem has to be destroyed? Read Dan 11:29-45. Do you see any hint of Jerusalem being destroyed there?

[/quote]

When Jesus said not one stone will be standing on top of another there in Jerusalem at that temple mount complex, that means He is going to destroy that area. Why? Because of the pseudo-Christ and his idol worship that he will have had setup there with a rebuilt temple. God's consuming fire is going to burn the elements of man's works off the earth on that day of Jesus' second coming. The earth will tremble with a great shaking, the whole earth, not only in Jerusalem.

 

[KennethC]

Isaiah 21 tells us where to look for the Mystery Babylon of the end times.

In that chapter the destruction of Babylon is mentioned, and when researched to find the locations mentioned being destroyed we will see they are in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia was not part of the Ancient Babylonian empire.

Only a very small northwestern corner was.

 

[DP]

Isaiah 21 tells us where to look for the Mystery Babylon of the end times.

In that chapter the destruction of Babylon is mentioned, and when researched to find the locations mentioned being destroyed we will see they are in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia was not part of the Ancient Babylonian empire.

Only a very small northwestern corner was.

More than one "burden" is being mentioned in that Isaiah 21 chapter, which is how that section of Isaiah burden chapters is prophecy about the fall of other kingdoms around the land of Israel. Cyrus took other lands too, which is why some of them are mentioned along with Babylon. There's also a link of the merchants of those lands like Dedan, Kedar, etc. with old Tyrus which Alexander destroyed (Ezek.27).

But the main historical fall of old Babylon was by king Cyrus, whom God called His "anointed" in Isaiah 45:1 (see also Isaiah 44:28). What Cyrus did to historical Babylon's fall, serves as a type for our Lord Jesus' second coming to end the last days Babylon system. So where to is our Lord Jesus coming to on the earth, His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives causing a great split in the land? East of Jerusalem.

 

[Dillon88]

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
i believe what this is telling you is that the rapture will happen at once! Also read Mathew 24:20 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[PlainWord]

Ancient Babylon is the mother of harlots, the original beginning of pagan idol worship. And that false worship trekked to other nations, and even had its stay among old Israel when they fell to it, which is why God removed the majority of the children of Israel (ten tribes) and caused the king of Babylon to conquer Jerusalem and take the Jews captive to Babylon for 70 years. Yet He remembered His promise to David and to Jerusalem that there would always be "one tribe" left in Jerusalem (1 Kings 11), and that was the remnant of Israelites that returned after that 70 years captivity.

Ancient Babylon religion is the forebearer of ISLAM, not Judaism. Mystery Babylon is a continual succession of false religions which every beast empire "carried" or supported. There were 7 historical beast empires. Satan controlled all 7 of these Beast Empires:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns...

John then teaches that one of the 7 heads is mortally wounded yet lives (returns) as the eighth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

This CANNOT be said of Israel or her Great City Jerusalem. It can, however, be said of 1) Egypt, 2) Assyria, 3) Babylon, 4) Medo-Persia, 5) Greece, 6) Rome and 7) the Ottoman Empire. These 7 were in a line of a continual succession with one empire replacing the previous empire. One of these 7 empires is said to be mortally wounded yet lived. Many think it will be Rome but Italy is showing no signs of becoming a dominant world power again. Notice Israel is not one of the 7? Instead, Israel is and was impacted by all of the 7 and will be again by the 8th.

Roots of False Worship goes back to Babel which of course is where Babylon gets its name. There are specific people who settled Babel after the Flood, the Sons of Ham which included Cush and then Nimrod. Abraham is from the line of Shem. Of Noah's three sons, only the descendants of Shem remain Monotheistic while the sons of Ham are polytheistic. The Sons of Ham included Cush and Nimrod (as I mentioned) and Canaan, Jebusite, Hivite, Put, Amorite, and Girgsite. These are the peoples that Israel struggled with as a young nation in their land. These sons of Ham settled the area of Babylon, Egypt, North Africa, Syria and Jordan.

The first mention of Idol Worship comes in Gen 31:19. Laban, the father of Rachel, had idols which his daughter took from him when she left with her husband, Jacob. Laban was a Syrian (Gen 25:20). Years later Jacob came to Egypt, because of the famine, and was reunited with Joseph the tiny Nation of Israel really began flourish and grow. Remember Abraham had also gone to Egypt with Sarah prior to this. 400 years or so later when Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egypt he led them into the Sinai Peninsula which today is Saudi Arabia. One of the first things the Children of Israel did was to build a Golden Calf to worship. This wasn't something they learned on their own, they learned this from the Egyptians. Hagar, the Mother of Ishmael who is the Father of Islam, was Egyptian. The Golden Calf's horns were the first known Satanic symbol, a derivative of which was present in all 7 beast empires and in Islam today.

Thus the Children of Israel did not start Idol Worship. Instead they were exposed to it by all 7 beast empires and when they entered the Land. The Children of Israel instead of defeating the Sons of Ham, instead "fell into bed" with them and worshiped their Idols as we see in many passages including these:

Exodus 34:16
and you take of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters play the Harlot with their gods and make your sons play the harlot with their gods.

2 Kings 17:15
And they rejected His statutes and His covenant that He had made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He had testified against them; they followed idols, became idolaters, and went after the nations who were all around them, concerning whom the Lord had charged them that they should not do like them.

Judges 10:6
Then the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served the Baals and the Ashtoreths, the gods of Syria, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the people of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; and they forsook the Lord and did not serve Him.

Israel NEVER originated IDOL worship. The nations around them did the originating, Israel simply followed and were influenced by it. Thus ISRAEL is not the MOTHER.

Study the ancient symbols of the 7 beasts and what they worshiped. See that Islam worships the same symbol today. What is Islam's symbol?

The Crescent (Moon) and Star - RIGHT?? What does God say about this?

Deuteronomy 4:19:
And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, Which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.

GOD COMMANDS DO NOT WORSHIP THE MOON AND STAR(S).

Who has the symbol of the Moon and Star and who worships a meteor (Kaaba Stone) which is the Chief Corners stone at the Temple of Allah in Mecca? The Kaaba is a BLACK STONE. Do you see that??? A BLACK STONE. What are we given????

Revelation 2:17

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

The MUSLIMS worship a black stone and it is their chief cornerstone. We are given a white stone as our chief cornerstone which represents Christ. The compare and contrasting imagery is as compelling as it is awesome.

Acts 7:43
You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Images which you made to worship; And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’

Psalm 106:28
They joined themselves also to Ba’al of Peor, And ate sacrifices made to the dead. 34 They did not destroy the peoples,
Concerning whom the Lord had commanded them, 35 But they mingled with the Gentiles And learned their works; 36 They served their idols, Which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds.

IT IS THE NATIONS AND PEOPLES ALL AROUND ISRAEL WHO INITIATED AND STILL FOLLOW FALSE GOD(S) TODAY. ISRAEL IS NOT BABYLON, THOSE AROUND HER ARE BABYLON.

And again, Jerusalem is attacked and badly damaged but never destroyed thus cannot be Babylon which is destroyed and left desolate.

 

[DP]

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
i believe what this is telling you is that the rapture will happen at once! Also read Mathew 24:20 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Not really, it's not about a rapture at all.

It is showing us the difference when our Lord Jesus comes, that all will see and recognize it, just as when lightning strikes in the sky from one point to the other, it is seen over a wide area by many people. That is being given in comparison with how the pseudo-Christ comes that was mentioned in the previous Matt.24:23-26 verses, which he will be announced as having come, meaning the false one will not come in glory in the clouds like our Lord Jesus will.

It is dangerous to pull out just one verse and take it out of context when it is given in context with other verses. All the verses of a subject flow must be weighed together as a whole. And the previous verses about the coming false messiah He covered is part of that.

 

[DP]

Ancient Babylon religion is the forebearer of ISLAM, not Judaism. Mystery Babylon is a continual succession of false religions which every beast empire "carried" or supported. There were 7 historical beast empires. Satan controlled all 7 of these Beast Empires:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns...

Your responses are getting more and more incoherent. You should always include the Book and Chapter with Scripture quotes.

The Rev.12:3-4 event happened at Satan's first original rebellion against God. That system only has seven crowns instead of the one in Rev.13 for the end which is to have ten crowns.

And YES, Judah did fall to the old pagan worship of Baal from ancient Babylon, just as the ten-tribed northern kingdom did also. That's why God removed the "house of Judah" captive to Babylon for 70 years, because of their falling into false worship against Him. And during that time in Babylon, they left off use of Hebrew as the main language and went to Aramaic. And the system of Judaism came into existence with the creation of the Babylonian Talmud traditions of men which became "the Jew's religion" which Apostle Paul escaped out of through Christ Jesus.

John then teaches that one of the 7 heads is mortally wounded yet lives (returns) as the eighth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

No, no, no. Rev.13:12 shows plainly that it is the 1st beast (a beast kingdom) of Rev.13:1-2 that receives the "deadly wound":

Rev 13:12
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
KJV


The beast king of Rev.17:8-11 is NOT that 1st beast of Rev.13:1 which is a kingdom beast. The beast king of Rev.17:11 is the same "another beast" John saw of Rev.13:11 forward, a certain person, the pseudo-Christ of Matt.24:23-26.

One of the "seven heads" (mountains per Rev.17:9) is what suffers the deadly wound that is healed.

The beast king of Rev.17:8, 10, & 11 is the devil himself, that's who ascends out of the bottomless pit. The beast that was is about Satan's original attempt of Rev.12:3-4 when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him, long ago when he first sinned against God. He "was" (back then), and "is not" (not now, not yet), and for the end will ascend out of the bottomless pit to play king Christ in Jerusalem to deceive the world prior to our Lord Jesus' return.

 

[PlainWord]

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
i believe what this is telling you is that the rapture will happen at once! Also read Mathew 24:20 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

We already discussed and proved that the "One(s) taken" are evil and are being removed from the future earthly kingdom of Israel where Christ will reign for 1,000 years.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Jesus is comparing HIS return to Noah's Flood. The wicked mentioned above are taken away just as the Flood took the wicked of Noah's day away. The above passage makes no mention of the "taken" going to heaven. Quite the opposite is the implication. Compare with Christ's parable of the Wheat and Tares from a little earlier in Matthew 13:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” [SUP]38 [/SUP]The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

We see when Christ returns that He sends out His angels to gather out of the kingdom all of the wicked. The righteous are left to be gathered into the barn/kingdom. In the above we are clearly told that the wicked one is taken. The same analogy is in use. They are "in the field" and then the harvest comes. The righteous remain and SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN.

All of this happens AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, not before it as Daniel 12 confirms.

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

We see again that the righteous SHINE LIKE THE STARS (sun) FOREVER. This happens at the end of the age which is when Christ returns to begin His 1,000 year reign.

Notice the question again asked by the desciples in Mat 24:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

They are connecting CHRIST'S RETURN TO THE END OF THE AGE just as Christ did in Mat 13. The "Rapture" of 1 Thes 4 is totally and completely unrelated to the above passages. The Rapture happens on the very last day of planet earth after the 1,000 year reign and is instead related to 2 Peter 3:8-13:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


THE DAY OF THE LORD LASTS 1,000 YEARS. It begins with the RETURN OF CHRIST and ends with the burning of the elements and the RETURN OF GOD the FATHER.

Notice Peter calls this the DAY OF GOD? Now look who Paul is saying is returning in 1 THES 4:13-17.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Notice GOD WILL BRING, (not Jesus) those who sleep in Jesus?

When Jesus returns, He brings a limited select group of believers, the martyred of the Tribulation as Jude tells us:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.

When God returns, He brings ALL THE SAINTS as Zechariah 14 tells us:

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Ten Thousands vs. ALL. Read Rev 20-22 and this is confirmed.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

CHRIST REIGNS with those who were beheaded and did not worship the BEAST.

God returns after the 1,000 years:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away.

Notice the earth and heaven fled away now which agrees with Peter?

 

[PlainWord]

Thus the correct order of events:

1. 42 months of the 8th BEAST (Ottoman Empire back to life)
- THIS MAY HAVE STARTED on June 29, 2014

2. MAN of SIN appears and does miracles claiming to be above all called God
3. Sets up ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
4. All MUSLIMS unite under RADICAL ISLAM
5. ALMOST ALL OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD IS KILLED
6. MECCA destroyed and with it normal ISLAM (Mystery Babylon)
7. ISRAEL ATTACKED and brought to brink of destruction
8. ALL MUSLIMS (TARES) are KILLED (1/3 of the world population) at 6th Trumpet
9. CHRIST RETURNS
10. SATAN IS BOUND
11. SAINTS are Gathered
12. CHRIST REIGNS 1,000 years
13. SATAN Released
14. SATAN deceives world again
15. SATAN attacks ISRAEL again
16. God sends fire down and consumes them all
17. GOD RETURNS
18. RAPTURE of those Saints still Alive and Remaining
19. Heaven and Earth consumed
20. GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
21. New Heaven and EARTH

This is how I see it anyway.

 

[popeye]

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
i believe what this is telling you is that the rapture will happen at once! Also read Mathew 24:20 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Yes,that verse in mat 24 is the rapture.

Jesus gives 2 pretrib examples of A "catching away" with lot and Noah.

 

[popeye]

Thus the correct order of events:

1. 42 months of the 8th BEAST (Ottoman Empire back to life)
- THIS MAY HAVE STARTED on June 29, 2014

2. MAN of SIN appears and does miracles claiming to be above all called God
3. Sets up ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
4. All MUSLIMS unite under RADICAL ISLAM
5. ALMOST ALL OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD IS KILLED
6. MECCA destroyed and with it normal ISLAM (Mystery Babylon)
7. ISRAEL ATTACKED and brought to brink of destruction
8. ALL MUSLIMS (TARES) are KILLED (1/3 of the world population) at 6th Trumpet
9. CHRIST RETURNS
10. SATAN IS BOUND
11. SAINTS are Gathered
12. CHRIST REIGNS 1,000 years
13. SATAN Released
14. SATAN deceives world again
15. SATAN attacks ISRAEL again
16. God sends fire down and consumes them all
17. GOD RETURNS
18. RAPTURE of those Saints still Alive and Remaining
19. Heaven and Earth consumed
20. GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
21. New Heaven and EARTH

This is how I see it anyway.

Then Paul would have said"THEY which are alive and remain"

He said "WE"

THEY expected Jesus' return.