Hyper grace

[eternally-gratefull]

I know you are going to keep stating this because of your experiences so far, but I would request to do some research on what we are saying.

Have you ever heard of the big, WAKE UP CALL, that was done in the late 80's ???

Tons of preachers around the U.S. banned together to stop the bad teachings corrupting many churches then telling people that could live however they want.

The doctrine that was doing this was Calvinism also known as OSAS. The call was successful but now days we have 4 different versions of it floating around.

This lead me to research by the Holy Spirit's guidance on the subject. Out of all the papers, quotes, and documents I have seen neither osas or eternal security was taught before the 4th century (301-400 AD).

Yep. Lets all revert to A WORKS BASED, SELF RIGHTEOUS SELF FOCUSED, Gospel. where we all water own the law, and instead of taking sin head on, we excuse our sin, we become modern day Pharisees who spend all our energy trying to get all the gnats our of our life, while refusing to swallow the camel.

Religion is not of God. it is of satan, Satan has been using religion to distort the gospel of God since adam and eve first sinned. It is still his main weapon against God, ore powerful that atheism, because it looks good..

One does not have to look at modern day examples to see how destructive your gospel is, they can see it in Gods word.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have listened to over a 1,000 different message on the gospel of the grace of Christ and never heard that it is ok to sin...don't know what happened back in the 80's but it doesn't negate the truth of the wonderful, freedom in Christ...to live His live through and in us.

I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever, free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out to me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self=performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )

If all this bad grace stuff makes me to love Jesus and the Father more ..and to love others more...and to be filled with joy and peace...then give me hyper-grace!

Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


Let's receive the grace of Jesus and the gift of righteousness...then our lives come together and we reign in this life in Him.

..

I know you are going to keep stating this because of your experiences so far, but I would request to do some research on what we are saying.

Have you ever heard of the big, WAKE UP CALL, that was done in the late 80's ???

Tons of preachers around the U.S. banned together to stop the bad teachings corrupting many churches then telling people that could live however they want.

The doctrine that was doing this was Calvinism also known as OSAS. The call was successful but now days we have 4 different versions of it floating around.

This lead me to research by the Holy Spirit's guidance on the subject. Out of all the papers, quotes, and documents I have seen neither osas or eternal security was taught before the 4th century (301-400 AD).

 

[PeterJens]

The essence of the grace alone preachers is the lack of repentance, the changing of Jesus's words into old and new covenant concepts, and some derived idea of being zapped by God to be made righteous, but actually not.

And the reason why this all comes about? People want to answer why they are spiritually standing still and continually in condemnation rather than praise and victory.

I would summarise christian experience simply. How well do you know the christian sitting next to you in church? When I say how well, are they really your brother or sister, as you would count a brother or sister in your family? People talk very easily about faith, but when you get these simply life boundaries it all disappears. But this is where Jesus is talking it really works. Now people vary a vast amount, but it is this serious. You are called to love them to the same level you love yourself.

I know how hard this is, to even begin to get people to open up and start to share about their lives and experience.

But so many would rather run to new doctrine, or work out a way to stay as they are and forget this hard empathy and openness Jesus is calling us to.

I went to a house group with a young man, and suggest I visited him at home. That was just not acceptable.
So I wonder if some know what the ideas of eternity mean beyond a safe place when you die.

 

[KennethC]

Hebrews 10:26

Is talking to the Hebrews that were going to go back to the temple sacrifices....the willful sin is ..hearing that Jesus is the Messiah and then deciding to go back to doing the temple as before.

If just any willful sin sends us to hell....we are all going there...lol.. most all sin people do is willful

remember context is king! it is called Hebrews for a reason...selah

Don't take someone else's medicine...

You are the one taking someone else's medicine.

Sin is sin, and Jesus never taught if you do these sins your fine but if you do these other sins you go to he'll.

LUKE 13 is a clear teaching on this, as Jesus told the man here about two different groups and asks the man if he thinks one group is worse sinners then the other.

Then Jesus tells him no and brings him into the fold by telling him that unless he repentance of his sins he also will perish.

The whole context of teaching some sins acceptable and others not comes from the misuse of 1 JOHN 5:16-17.

The sins that don't lead to death here are repented/confessed sins that a believer still is struggling with.

Verses 14-15 clearly show these sins were petitioned in prayer for help and forgiveness of.

 

[Grace777x70]

The truth is that grace teachers "repent" constantly!... When I hear people say that grace teachers say you don't have to repent is a clear sign they have never heard them..or what they did hear conflicted with their understanding of what repentance is..

.. we need to bring out the scriptures and it all becomes obvious. We need to go by the scriptures are actually saying about everything we believe..not our religious traditions,,

.Mark 7:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


again..it's what others that have been taught repentance through their religious beliefs handed down to us from church..man's traditions that affect what we "hear" when people say certain words.

Here is a short 7 minute video..I encourage people to go view it and ask yourself if repentance is not taught..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDgqUP2-FOw

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The essence of the grace alone preachers is the lack of repentance, the changing of Jesus's words into old and new covenant concepts, and some derived idea of being zapped by God to be made righteous, but actually not.

And the reason why this all comes about? People want to answer why they are spiritually standing still and continually in condemnation rather than praise and victory.

I would summarise christian experience simply. How well do you know the christian sitting next to you in church? When I say how well, are they really your brother or sister, as you would count a brother or sister in your family? People talk very easily about faith, but when you get these simply life boundaries it all disappears. But this is where Jesus is talking it really works. Now people vary a vast amount, but it is this serious. You are called to love them to the same level you love yourself.

I know how hard this is, to even begin to get people to open up and start to share about their lives and experience.

But so many would rather run to new doctrine, or work out a way to stay as they are and forget this hard empathy and openness Jesus is calling us to.

I went to a house group with a young man, and suggest I visited him at home. That was just not acceptable.
So I wonder if some know what the ideas of eternity mean beyond a safe place when you die.

The main idea of grace alone through FAITH alone is repentance.

You can not have true faith unless you have true repentance.

so what you said is not founded on what true grace teaches.

 

[Grace777x70]

All sin is bad, bad, bad!

grace teaches us to deny it.. grace preachers love the grace of God!!!

Titus 2:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

You are the one taking someone else's medicine.

Sin is sin, and Jesus never taught if you do these sins your fine but if you do these other sins you go to he'll.

LUKE 13 is a clear teaching on this, as Jesus told the man here about two different groups and asks the man if he thinks one group is worse sinners then the other.

Then Jesus tells him no and brings him into the fold by telling him that unless he repentance of his sins he also will perish.

The whole context of teaching some sins acceptable and others not comes from the misuse of 1 JOHN 5:16-17.

The sins that don't lead to death here are repented/confessed sins that a believer still is struggling with.

Verses 14-15 clearly show these sins were petitioned in prayer for help and forgiveness of.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one taking someone else's medicine.

Sin is sin, and Jesus never taught if you do these sins your fine but if you do these other sins you go to he'll.

LUKE 13 is a clear teaching on this, as Jesus told the man here about two different groups and asks the man if he thinks one group is worse sinners then the other.

Then Jesus tells him no and brings him into the fold by telling him that unless he repentance of his sins he also will perish.

The whole context of teaching some sins acceptable and others not comes from the misuse of 1 JOHN 5:16-17.

The sins that don't lead to death here are repented/confessed sins that a believer still is struggling with.

Verses 14-15 clearly show these sins were petitioned in prayer for help and forgiveness of.

so when are you going to believe this.

Sin is sin, And all have sinned, are sinning, and will continue to sin. thus we will continually fall short of the glory of God.

When are you going to start teaching this, so you can move on from legalism, truly repent, and start going to your real father (God) and not your false God (self)

 

[KennethC]

I have listened to over a 1,000 different message on the gospel of the grace of Christ and never heard that it is ok to sin...don't know what happened back in the 80's but it doesn't negate the truth of the wonderful, freedom in Christ...to live His live through and in us.

I am living a much fuller life now, more deeply in love with Jesus and the Father then ever, free from the horrible religion of self-effort, having the love of God pour out to me to help others now that I understand the grace that is in Christ then I did when I was doing the self=performance based gospel ( which is not the gospel )

If all this bad grace stuff makes me to love Jesus and the Father more ..and to love others more...and to be filled with joy and peace...then give me hyper-grace!

Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


Let's receive the grace of Jesus and the gift of righteousness...then our lives come together and we reign in this life in Him.

..

One of the problems you keep jumping to it seems is that you think we are against grace, or think it's a bad thing.

Your own words show you think that way.

Problem is that is so far from the truth.

We love God's grace He shows to us !!!

The problem stems I think where we differ is that grace alone can not be taught.

Jesus, Paul, James, and John did not preach grace alone, nor did the preach faith alone.

This grace or faith alone comes from the misuse of two scriptures from Paul in ROMANS and EPHESIANS.

Neither one of those void out works, they only show the works are not what does the saving.

If it voided out works completely then the multitude of teachings from Jesus and the Apostles showing our walk/actions would show proof we are saved would be all lies and we could toss them out of the bible.

 

[Grace777x70]

Whenever we are basing our life on our own self-effort..our own self-salvation..we are denying the grace of Christ.

..that self-performance based religion has the "appearance" of good..but it has no power to effect change..Jesus said.."without Me you can do nothing!"

2 Timothy 3:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul and James were in perfect harmony....it would appear that they contradict each other. .Martin Luther actually wanted the book of James out of the bible because he mistook what it said....lol

have a lookie see...

What About James? (Are We Really Justified by Works?) – Escape to Reality

One of the problems you keep jumping to it seems is that you think we are against grace, or think it's a bad thing.

Your own words show you think that way.

Problem is that is so far from the truth.

We love God's grace He shows to us !!!

The problem stems I think where we differ is that grace alone can not be taught.

Jesus, Paul, James, and John did not preach grace alone, nor did the preach faith alone.

This grace or faith alone comes from the misuse of two scriptures from Paul in ROMANS and EPHESIANS.

Neither one of those void out works, they only show the works are not what does the saving.

If it voided out works completely then the multitude of teachings from Jesus and the Apostles showing our walk/actions would show proof we are saved would be all lies and we could toss them out of the bible.

 

[Grace777x70]

Context is always king! We can get the bible to say anything we want by taking a scripture here and there. If not in context that text will con you!

Here is a very common thing.. We insert "Jesus" or "it's in the bible " into our statements to validate what we are saying.

What we just said was our interpretation of what was said. So, if we insert "God, Jesus. bible..etc" it gives it the "appearance" of being correct. I mean..after all...Jseus and God and His word are pretty important so in our minds that must mean the interpretation must be right. Not necessarily! We always need to go and look at what a scripture says and in context...just sayin'

 

[Grace777x70]

we need to be like the Bereans....be eager to receive but search the scriptures to see whether those things being told us are true or not...what is really being said to us??...is it a tradition?..a religious mindset, a fruit of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? ( ever notice that knowing good is of the same tree as knowing evil?....same fruit..

Acts 17:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Grace777x70]

A very bifg factor in looking at scripture is the "lens" you use to view the scripture.

In the Old Covenant " you had to do or else"..If you do this..then I God will do that.." = conditional on the person performing

New Covenant = Jesus has done it for you which empowers you to "do"

Let's take a look at a common scripture with these 2 mindsets.

Jesus said.." If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"

Old Covenant mindset = conditional on the person "doing"..so they would read it this way.."IF you love Me you will keep My commandments"..in their mind it's saying.."Keep My commandment and you will prove you love Me."

New Covenant mindset = it's a description of who you are in Christ . they would see this "Jesus' love is in me so I keep His commandments"..it stems out of relationship and it is not conditional but descriptive of the believer.

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Then there is more..lol..there seems to be more sometimes eh?..just what are His commandments anyway?..Be perfect as My Father in heaven is perfect?...can we possibly do that?..of course not..that is Moses 2.0

Ahhh..found His commandments

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

...the "lens" that we view scriptures greatly affects us. Religious traditions of men, philosophies of men, ..what we were told all our lives in church or in the world etc. ..all influence how we view scripture. Sometimes some of our "sacred cows" can get sacrificed and it's painful.

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

...just throwin' in out there for us to ponder...

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm all done now.....lol

 

[Ahwatukee]

.
Grace that sanctions sin isn't grace; it's licentiousness and lawlessness.

Hi HeRose,

Anyone who thinks of grace in this way is not of Christ and as Paul said, their condemnation is deserved.

 

[KennethC]

Paul and James were in perfect harmony....it would appear that they contradict each other. .Martin Luther actually wanted the book of James out of the bible because he mistook what it said....lol

have a lookie see...

What About James? (Are We Really Justified by Works?) – Escape to Reality

He is not the only one that did not want James in the bible.

Many of people tried to keep it and other books out such as 1 John and the epistles from Peter. They would not even preach those letters to their congregations.

The reason is because of the convicting teachings they carried, and warnings if one's walk does not match the faith in Christ.

They wanted to preach a cheap grace, or teach people no matter how they lived didn't matter. Completely teaching deception !!!

 

[KennethC]

Hi HeRose,

Anyone who thinks of grace in this way is not of Christ and as Paul said, their condemnation is deserved.

Yes and problem is that some grace only followers deny this type of teaching exists.

They try to reverse it to say we misunderstand what they said.

It is not a misunderstanding when they have clearly stated you can live however you want.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have not seen this so-called cheap-grace thing before taught anywhere. People obviously have not listened to men of God like Joseph Prince teach on grace because if they did..it would be impossible to comeback and say.. "they are saying that you can do whatever you want and sin all you want" ..it is impossible to live in the grace of Christ and continue in sin!

If the gospel we preach does not make people say.."What?..are you saying we can sin all we want..then you have not preached the gospel..you preached something else."

He is not the only one that did not want James in the bible.

Many of people tried to keep it and other books out such as 1 John and the epistles from Peter. They would not even preach those letters to their congregations.

The reason is because of the convicting teachings they carried, and warnings if one's walk does not match the faith in Christ.

They wanted to preach a cheap grace, or teach people no matter how they lived didn't matter. Completely teaching deception !!!

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe we are trying to tackle the problem from the wrong direction.

Can we agree we have to change, become something different, to walk in the Spirit?

It appears though people say yes, there are two paths being painted, trying to abide by a set of rules or walking in the Spirit.

Now we all know rules do not work, because they are just a measure of failure or success, not the how or why.

Some seem to argue that knowing God loves us is enough. There is no active choice or walk.

I would hold 100% there is a walk and a choice, it is the fruit of the open door in Jesus, He invites us to walk with Him.
It is like being taught how to sail a boat, and thinking by just sitting in it it will sail itself. The kingdom is about action, about becoming through doing. It is actually a sin to do nothing, sloth, laziness. Now the reason, the direction are all inspired by the love at work in our hearts, but we are the ones doing the actions.

If you hold it is not our walk or actions, then you are simply dead and not alive. Everything in your life is your choice, from the moment you get up to the time you go to sleep, all your choice. You could argue it is your motivation or view, ie for self or for some vision or set of ideas. But the failure appears to be by simply trying to do things without being transformed means human nature or the flesh takes over. So Paul and the apostles give long lists of what thinking in the spirit is, and walk walking in the flesh is. Again they emphasis choice. Can it be any clearer.