Hyper grace

[KennethC]

I have not seen this so-called cheap-grace thing before taught anywhere. People obviously have not listened to men of God like Joseph Prince teach on grace because if they did..it would be impossible to comeback and say.. "they are saying that you can do whatever you want and sin all you want" ..it is impossible to live in the grace of Christ and continue in sin!

If the gospel we preach does not make people say.."What?..are you saying we can sin all we want..then you have not preached the gospel..you preached something else."

Again deny it all you like, but it is taught.

Just because you hSmithave not seen just means you need to get around more.

Preachers who preach this way are not hard to find.

Also as for bringing up Joseph Prince I use to watch him a lot until he said two things contradictory to scripture.

He said the Holy Spirit does not convicted believers when they sin, and he did say we can live however we want.

He also uses the gospel as a means to financial gain, and there is a clear warning for doing that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe we are trying to tackle the problem from the wrong direction.

Can we agree we have to change, become something different, to walk in the Spirit?

It appears though people say yes, there are two paths being painted, trying to abide by a set of rules or walking in the Spirit.

Now we all know rules do not work, because they are just a measure of failure or success, not the how or why.

Some seem to argue that knowing God loves us is enough. There is no active choice or walk.

I would hold 100% there is a walk and a choice, it is the fruit of the open door in Jesus, He invites us to walk with Him.
It is like being taught how to sail a boat, and thinking by just sitting in it it will sail itself. The kingdom is about action, about becoming through doing. It is actually a sin to do nothing, sloth, laziness. Now the reason, the direction are all inspired by the love at work in our hearts, but we are the ones doing the actions.

If you hold it is not our walk or actions, then you are simply dead and not alive. Everything in your life is your choice, from the moment you get up to the time you go to sleep, all your choice. You could argue it is your motivation or view, ie for self or for some vision or set of ideas. But the failure appears to be by simply trying to do things without being transformed means human nature or the flesh takes over. So Paul and the apostles give long lists of what thinking in the spirit is, and walk walking in the flesh is. Again they emphasis choice. Can it be any clearer.

Lets start here

How does this change take place?

By the power of God

Or by us changing?

 

[Grace777x70]

yes Peter..we all agree that there will be a change in us after coming to Christ.

We need to have some definitions down first.

There is a difference between being "in the Spirit". and walking "according to the Spirit."

All Christians are "in the Spirit"

.Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Then we walk according to the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Romans 8:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Another way that Paul uses is in Galatians " walk by " the Spirit. ( according to and by = same thing )
Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

So grace-based believing maintain that it is in seeing who we are in Christ that we are transformed by the Spirit of God.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

So, this is abiding in Christ and then His life flows through and in us and it produces the "fruit " of righteousness which are seen outwardly.

John 15:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

So grace-based believing says that as we behold Christ and acknowledge His finished work on our behalf, His life is produced in us.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

So, we say that Christ is our righteousness and holiness, redemption, our wisdom...we are agreeing with Christ and not denying the Lord nor His finished work for us.

We declare what is true about who we are in our new creation in Christ. Our faith starts to work on our behalf when we acknowledge that because of Jesus and His grace..sin shall not have dominion over us.

Philemon 1:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.


So, we declare who we are in Christ and His life becomes manifested outwardly The life looks like this - being made holier in behavior, loving Jesus and our Father deeper then ever before, and thus loving others, growing in the knowledge of Him and in His grace.

Job 22:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "You will also decree a thing, and it will be established for you; And light will shine on your ways.

Sin falls off of us like dead leaves that drop from a vine....then the life of the vine comes and produces fruit..His fruit in us.

SO...all true grace-based teachers are against sin!.... but we get rid of sin from the life of Christ in us not by self-effort. There is a vast difference altho outwardly they may appear to be the same.

The life of Jacob turning into Israel is a beautiful picture of the Christian "seeing' who they are in Christ and then walking that out.

Maybe we are trying to tackle the problem from the wrong direction.

Can we agree we have to change, become something different, to walk in the Spirit?

It appears though people say yes, there are two paths being painted, trying to abide by a set of rules or walking in the Spirit.

Now we all know rules do not work, because they are just a measure of failure or success, not the how or why.

Some seem to argue that knowing God loves us is enough. There is no active choice or walk.

I would hold 100% there is a walk and a choice, it is the fruit of the open door in Jesus, He invites us to walk with Him.
It is like being taught how to sail a boat, and thinking by just sitting in it it will sail itself. The kingdom is about action, about becoming through doing. It is actually a sin to do nothing, sloth, laziness. Now the reason, the direction are all inspired by the love at work in our hearts, but we are the ones doing the actions.

If you hold it is not our walk or actions, then you are simply dead and not alive. Everything in your life is your choice, from the moment you get up to the time you go to sleep, all your choice. You could argue it is your motivation or view, ie for self or for some vision or set of ideas. But the failure appears to be by simply trying to do things without being transformed means human nature or the flesh takes over. So Paul and the apostles give long lists of what thinking in the spirit is, and walk walking in the flesh is. Again they emphasis choice. Can it be any clearer.

 

[Grace777x70]

I also think that us grace-based believers have been guilty of being a "grace-Pharisee" . Where we impose the idea that all people who don't understand the teaching of grace or the definitions of the meaning of certain words are legalistic.

That is not true! Some people genuinely want to know what is being said and what does all this grace stuff mean. It is good and healthy to have legitimate questions about things they hear.

Forgive us if we have done that to you.

We all want to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus and our Father. TOGETHER!

 

[Grace777x70]

I also believe that mis-understandings come into play when some people hear the teaching of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

There are two aspects of Grace. The very first foundational one is "acceptance grace". This acceptance grace is where thoughts go screaming in our heads and we say..."What?... does that mean you can do all the sin you want? ( this is a sure sign that the true gospel is being preached ).

The acceptance grace throws us off the deep end because it is so UNCONDITIONAL. This is offensive to our way of thinking in this world.

There are 2 aspects to grace.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you". It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is "empowerment grace" - Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now. ( walking out in this world our true nature in Christ )


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you." The grace of God speaks of better things!

Knowing that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.

 

[PeterJens]

yes Peter..we all agree that there will be a change in us after coming to Christ.

Your "doing" is just believing, and possibly confessing.

Good works are not part of your theology, or acts of righteousness, or engaging in life itself. For you to even mention this or quote scripture that clearly encourages and commands us to action, is legalism, or self justification.

As John said, seeing a starving person at your feet, love causes you to act. But to talk as if we can act righteously, or even aspire to be lights in a dark place, is wrong to you. Now you claim to embrace the whole gospel, but this is the point of the gospel, to capture and transform the whole being. Are you so scared of good deeds, because you might count this as not the fruit of Gods grace and love, but self righteousness? This is being a pharisee and falling for a law of good works are evil in case they are hypocracy.

What I do not see at all, is how you think I do not accept grace. You have painted the world black and white, and you are spiritual and those not like you are carnal. That is judgementalism and error.

The Lord has given me wisdom to bless others. Everything has its proper place, but you want to ignore things because you have to balance out your sin and failure.

Part of your argument is we are made fully righteous, but then you say we are not. That is called situational arguing, taking a position to counter a point, but contradicting yourself in the process. Either sin still has dominion over you or not.
Either Christ has set you free and you can walk in righteousness, or you have failed to enter the Kingdom.

If you were a real sinner, with a jet black history you would know what this means, but you have spent your life being religious so nit pick over nothing. I would say get real and grow up.

 

[PeterJens]

There is a reason why the Lord does not boom out His view. You would argue with Him rather than just follow.

The gospel in essence is about being a servant, seeing a need and meeting it with a good heart.
Jesus washed the disciples feet.

There is a real problem, when christians do not believe they are saved, loved, made whole.
In their unbelief they obey, trying to prove themselves worthy. Then these same unbelieving christians suddenly realise they are loved, but their attempts at self salvation where legalism, so any works are legalism. It is still unbelief.

I am saved, the cross is enough for me, I need nothing else, the Lord has purchased my victory.
So I help who I can, work day and night using my gifts and I hope and pray that the Lord can bless and use my offering of thanks. I laugh at those who think any works I do are self justification, for they do not know how massive is my debt and how low in worth I am. But He counts me worthy, and lifts me up from the pit because He died for me, Hallelujah, what a saviour.

So woe to you who pour scorn on any good works done by anybody, you do not know the judge who rewards any good deed done on this earth, because he truly knows how lost we really are.

In unbelief so many strive because the nature of their sin they have not seen, or how flawed their whole being is.
No I do not need some new doctrine or understanding, the cross was God dying for me and mankind to show Love is eternal and complete. To raise anything, idea or doctrine above this love is to fail the Lord of all. To take the eternal words of Christ and call them the old covenant is equally heresy and denial of one you call Lord. Woe to you if this is what you do.

 

[Grace777x70]

The reason we haven't talked much about what the fruits of righteousness should look like is because we are still trying to get over the hurtle of describing what grace is first.

It's the acceptance grace that is offensive to people and I understand that.

There are lot's of things we haven't discussed yet like ...what are some good works we can do to help people that are hurting.

I believe it is in the gospel just like Paul said that has the power to effect change to our lives..to those who are hurting....and unless we give people the true gospel of the grace of Christ - they will be stuck in whatever has them in bondage. .. .relying on the world's philosophies to give life to them.

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."


I pray constantly that the Father would grant to us according to His riches in glory to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in our inner man, that Christ would dwell in our hearts by faith....that we would be rooted in love....and to know the love of Christ.

...that our Father would give us a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him..

Maybe we can agree on that...bless you!

Your "doing" is just believing, and possibly confessing.

Good works are not part of your theology, or acts of righteousness, or engaging in life itself. For you to even mention this or quote scripture that clearly encourages and commands us to action, is legalism, or self justification.

As John said, seeing a starving person at your feet, love causes you to act. But to talk as if we can act righteously, or even aspire to be lights in a dark place, is wrong to you. Now you claim to embrace the whole gospel, but this is the point of the gospel, to capture and transform the whole being. Are you so scared of good deeds, because you might count this as not the fruit of Gods grace and love, but self righteousness? This is being a pharisee and falling for a law of good works are evil in case they are hypocracy.

What I do not see at all, is how you think I do not accept grace. You have painted the world black and white, and you are spiritual and those not like you are carnal. That is judgementalism and error.

The Lord has given me wisdom to bless others. Everything has its proper place, but you want to ignore things because you have to balance out your sin and failure.

Part of your argument is we are made fully righteous, but then you say we are not. That is called situational arguing, taking a position to counter a point, but contradicting yourself in the process. Either sin still has dominion over you or not.
Either Christ has set you free and you can walk in righteousness, or you have failed to enter the Kingdom.

If you were a real sinner, with a jet black history you would know what this means, but you have spent your life being religious so nit pick over nothing. I would say get real and grow up.

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter..my precious brother...no one is judging your good works..you are "projecting" that onto yourself. I did not see anyone accusing you of having bad works or self-justification.

We bless you! We have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus!

There is a reason why the Lord does not boom out His view. You would argue with Him rather than just follow.

The gospel in essence is about being a servant, seeing a need and meeting it with a good heart.
Jesus washed the disciples feet.

There is a real problem, when christians do not believe they are saved, loved, made whole.
In their unbelief they obey, trying to prove themselves worthy. Then these same unbelieving christians suddenly realise they are loved, but their attempts at self salvation where legalism, so any works are legalism. It is still unbelief.

I am saved, the cross is enough for me, I need nothing else, the Lord has purchased my victory.
So I help who I can, work day and night using my gifts and I hope and pray that the Lord can bless and use my offering of thanks. I laugh at those who think any works I do are self justification, for they do not know how massive is my debt and how low in worth I am. But He counts me worthy, and lifts me up from the pit because He died for me, Hallelujah, what a saviour.

So woe to you who pour scorn on any good works done by anybody, you do not know the judge who rewards any good deed done on this earth, because he truly knows how lost we really are.

In unbelief so many strive because the nature of their sin they have not seen, or how flawed their whole being is.
No I do not need some new doctrine or understanding, the cross was God dying for me and mankind to show Love is eternal and complete. To raise anything, idea or doctrine above this love is to fail the Lord of all. To take the eternal words of Christ and call them the old covenant is equally heresy and denial of one you call Lord. Woe to you if this is what you do.

 

[PeterJens]

It's the acceptance grace that is offensive to people and I understand that.

I think you believe you are preaching to the unsaved.

Offence is caused if you cause those who believe themselves righteous as sinners. I do not understand how you did not understand grace when you first became a christian. It would lead me to suggest you are very religious. Rather than setting people free from religion into real life, you are creating some odd idea that righteousness is this higher behaviour we can only dream about. I wonder if you have ever accepted someone as they actually are, strengths and weaknesses and not go annoyed at their different behaviours, no matter how insulting or procative they might be.

I know this having children. It takes real grace to work through this. It also takes time to know if this provocation is real rebellion or just growth pains. I often think our spiritual quests work like this, going off on tangents, but coming back later.

I hope this is what you are doing, because I have no clue how you can accept only one view on some verses and ignore the contradiction to your position from others. This suggests you have got a lot wrong.

As I feel zero condemnation, and am not feeling my fellow believers have got it wrong, I do not understand why you are inventing this mad extreme to deal with a problem that exists for you and those hyper sensitive types but not for most people in the Kingdom.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

Hyper grace exists to meet the need of hyper sensitive types who want to please God and probably everyone they meet to the point of being annoying. Some literally live their lives buying acceptance through gifts.

Now to over emphasise their being ok, is probably the only answer. Now the problem with this theological position is how could God judge anyone, because actually he loves and accepts all, and no one is truly evil worthy of hell, it is just a little miss-understanding. In fact you are not even responisible for your sin, it is your flesh, which when you have a new body is just go rid of.

The problem with this formulation is it does not meet the core essence of an individual, how they relate and what they are.
Jesus said new birth is like becoming a seed, when you were only chaff. This model suggests walking with Jesus is the real reality. Paul may have tried to explain the divide of desires of life against eternal issues, but love is part of the flesh and also God himself. So mixing these concepts creates a mess. In our core we desire to be loved and to love, yet this is part of our existence or flesh, so this attempt fails to encompass the greater spiritual reality, you are saved, flesh, spirit and soul.

I would hold we are to redeem the flesh through new emotional and spiritual experience so naturally we respond with love to aggression, forgiveness to sin, and peace to violence. But maybe this is just too advanced for Hyper grace merchants...

 

[ladylynn]

I agree ladylynn. When I read romans 7:14-25 - what struck me was this "sin" that dwelled in our flesh...a left over residue from the fall of Adam. This flesh is not the real us. The body is good because Jesus had a body.

That's why there is a difference between "sin" and "sinning" Sin is a noun which is a person, place or things. It's an identity..an "entity" if you will in our flesh. The real us is our new creation in Christ. That's why Paul talks about the circumcision of the flesh and heart.. Also called the circumcision of Christ. We have been separated from our flesh and our new man in Christ.

God "cut away " ( as in natural circumcision ) our flesh from our inner man and sealed with with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The greek structure here is rich in meaning when it says ..you were sealed = ( aorist passive )

It is in the aorist tense = past tense.

It is passive = this means an action is happening to you without your participating in it.

So, when we receive Jesus the Holy Spirit seals us by separating our flesh ( where that pesky "sin" parasite still remains ) from our true real nature which is the new man in Christ...created in righteousness and holiness.

We are still responsible to choose to walk according to the Spirit in us and not according to the flesh. We are to tell our body ( which houses the flesh with the "sin" in it ) what to do and as we follow " the life of Christ " in us..His fruit is produced in and through us which manifests as "good fruits of righteousness "...but it is His fruit....not something we manufacture ourselves.

Knowing this...then the considering yourself to be dead to sin becomes takes on new fresh meaning...I hope I am articulating what I'm seeing here...lol

Hi Grace777, I just got some sleep and read your post. Yes., it makes sense when I think each idea out one by one and follow the idea after some rest. What speaks to me most is the realization that without Him we can do nothing. We are walking out our Christian lives unlike those who are not aware of Jesus. Without Jesus we would be totally and horribly lost and without hope and then we see and remember there are many people who are without Him. So we magnify Him in our lives and give Him place in our thoughts.

Since believing in His constant and abiding love for me., my mind is more peaceful., is not confused or worried about tomorrow. Having the security of His love is an anchor. Like that song "The Anchor Holds" His salvation that took away the wrath and judgement of God was the beginning., and now the other parts of salvation to learn; Sonship and abiding; direction and protection from the HolySpirit's comfort and teaching.

Knowing in our flesh we are not worthy but God looks on the new heart In Jesus and the gift of grace and truth takes care of our failures daily. The gift of grace; unmerited unearned undeserved love and favor. Jesus is constantly and will always be our Great High Priest. Words of old hymns come to mind ...

Come Thou Fount of every blessing tune my heart to sing thy grace
Streams of mercy never ceasing call for songs of loudest praise,
Teach me some melodious sonnet Sung by flaming tongues a bove
Praise the mount I'm fixed upon it, Mount of Thy redeeming love

Here I raise my Ebenezer (sign of victory), Hither by Thy help I'm come
And I know, by Thy good pleasure, Safely to arrive at home
Jesus sought me when a stranger, Wandring from the fold of God
He to rescue me from danger, interposed His precious blood

Oh to grace how great a debtor Daily I'm constrained to be
Let Thy goodness like a fetter, Bind my wandering heart to Thee
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, Prone to leave the God I love,
Here's my heart O take and seal it, Seal it for Thy courts above.

If you ever read those old hymns you can see that those saints were aware of grace..This unmerited love and favor. I love the words "daily I'm constrained to be a debtor to grace" We don't seek to cast the pearls of grace into the mud for the world to crush into the ground. (casting pearls to swine) True Grace causes us to daily be constrained. The LOVE of God constrains us. Wow. If people would get a grasp on grace!!! We have every reason NOT to sin and instead are constrained by it to seek to do well and in Christ to be able to do well.

 

[JFSurvivor]

The holy spirit witnessing with our conscience.

But does everyone listen to their conscience? What happens if you don't listen?

 

[JFSurvivor]

If you truly love your parents. And you know you did something wrong. What keeps you accountable when they forgive you unconditionally?

Well it's different for everyone. For some people their own fear of their parents keeps them accountable. For other people nothing keeps them accountable and they keep making the same mistakes over and over. You see this all the time with drug addicts and parents who forgive again and again and again. It soon becomes enabaling.

 

[JFSurvivor]

ever read romans 7 (Not asking sarcastically, just honestly)

Why do kids have the most loving parents anyone could ask. Yet still fail to live up to their standard. What is it inside us that keeps us from being the perfect child..

What is your deffinition of love? Some parents define love as beating their kid silly and kicking them out of the house before they are ready and other parents belive love to be throwing money at their kids constantly. Other parents belive love to be settin healthy boundaries for their kids and rules so the kid learns right from wrong and implementing appropriate consequences for when the kid breaks one of the rules.

 

[JFSurvivor]

I disagree.

A parents love is what causes a child to want to be like them, and obey them. Not a parents condemnation.

Grace is not a license to sin, that is a legalistic viewpoint on things, Grace teaches us not to sin, because it does not condemn us when we do. and make us live a life where we have this guideline where we have to keep (which in the reality of things, we can't keep anyway no matter how hard we tried) but a life where we see and experience the love of a Father unlike any love we have experienced before from any of our earthly family. And this love causes us to want to be like him. But not be feared when we screw up. but knowing we can go to our Abba father.

But what is parental love? Is it to forgive again and again and again? Or is it to set rules in place so the kid doesn't hurt themselves and possibly die or rules that help the kid lead a healthy and productive life? When the kid breaks the rules of course there is no condemnation but is the parent going to just let it slide. I assume the parent will expect the kid not to do it again...and again and again and again. And if the kid needs help avoiding a certian behavior the parent helps them. But they are not going to allow the kid to keep doing the same thing over and over and over.

Also are you saying that Gods love keeps us from sinning?

 

[JFSurvivor]

One of the problems you keep jumping to it seems is that you think we are against grace, or think it's a bad thing.

Your own words show you think that way.

Problem is that is so far from the truth.

We love God's grace He shows to us !!!

The problem stems I think where we differ is that grace alone can not be taught.

Jesus, Paul, James, and John did not preach grace alone, nor did the preach faith alone.

This grace or faith alone comes from the misuse of two scriptures from Paul in ROMANS and EPHESIANS.

Neither one of those void out works, they only show the works are not what does the saving.

If it voided out works completely then the multitude of teachings from Jesus and the Apostles showing our walk/actions would show proof we are saved would be all lies and we could toss them out of the bible.

I wan to second this!

 

[JFSurvivor]

Maybe we are trying to tackle the problem from the wrong direction.

Can we agree we have to change, become something different, to walk in the Spirit?

It appears though people say yes, there are two paths being painted, trying to abide by a set of rules or walking in the Spirit.

Now we all know rules do not work, because they are just a measure of failure or success, not the how or why.

Some seem to argue that knowing God loves us is enough. There is no active choice or walk.

I would hold 100% there is a walk and a choice, it is the fruit of the open door in Jesus, He invites us to walk with Him.
It is like being taught how to sail a boat, and thinking by just sitting in it it will sail itself. The kingdom is about action, about becoming through doing. It is actually a sin to do nothing, sloth, laziness. Now the reason, the direction are all inspired by the love at work in our hearts, but we are the ones doing the actions.

If you hold it is not our walk or actions, then you are simply dead and not alive. Everything in your life is your choice, from the moment you get up to the time you go to sleep, all your choice. You could argue it is your motivation or view, ie for self or for some vision or set of ideas. But the failure appears to be by simply trying to do things without being transformed means human nature or the flesh takes over. So Paul and the apostles give long lists of what thinking in the spirit is, and walk walking in the flesh is. Again they emphasis choice. Can it be any clearer.

This is an excellent way of describing it.

 

[ladylynn]

I have read Bill Gillmans book..I didn't quite understand it back then..I found a couple of videos that helped me tho with the "sin" in the flesh..thing..


Here is a short 6 minute video that helped me to see some of these things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNdsZt8rthw


Here is one..at the 27:30 mark he talks about it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyWi5ErcbZ0

Have missed a lot of posts while at work., Wow, so you have listened to Bill Gillham.,? that is really something! I liked his story about the man who was chased by this horrible snarling sharped toothed bear. The man runs to the safety of this cave with a solid metal door with bars. The man gets to the cave and shuts the door and the bear is snarling swinging making all kinds of fearful gestures and the guy in the cave is so scared his heart is beating out of his chest and his blood pressure goes up. Although he is safe behind that locked metal door he didn't believe it to the point of relaxing. That many of us Christians are the same., we have all we need to be safe but don't live like it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes I have read some of those old hymns and they sure do speak of God's wonderful grace!

The peace of mind and heart that comes with knowing how great our Lord's sacrifice was for us!

Now I understand when Jesus said "Come to Me...My yoke is easy and My burden is light!"..it's Him.

Hi Grace777, I just got some sleep and read your post. Yes., it makes sense when I think each idea out one by one and follow the idea after some rest. What speaks to me most is the realization that without Him we can do nothing. We are walking out our Christian lives unlike those who are not aware of Jesus. Without Jesus we would be totally and horribly lost and without hope and then we see and remember there are many people who are without Him. So we magnify Him in our lives and give Him place in our thoughts.

Since believing in His constant and abiding love for me., my mind is more peaceful., is not confused or worried about tomorrow. Having the security of His love is an anchor. Like that song "The Anchor Holds" His salvation that took away the wrath and judgement of God was the beginning., and now the other parts of salvation to learn; Sonship and abiding; direction and protection from the HolySpirit's comfort and teaching.

Knowing in our flesh we are not worthy but God looks on the new heart In Jesus and the gift of grace and truth takes care of our failures daily. The gift of grace; unmerited unearned undeserved love and favor. Jesus is constantly and will always be our Great High Priest. Words of old hymns come to mind ...

Come Thou Fount of every blessing tune my heart to sing thy grace
Streams of mercy never ceasing call for songs of loudest praise,
Teach me some melodious sonnet Sung by flaming tongues a bove
Praise the mount I'm fixed upon it, Mount of Thy redeeming love

Here I raise my Ebenezer (sign of victory), Hither by Thy help I'm come
And I know, by Thy good pleasure, Safely to arrive at home
Jesus sought me when a stranger, Wandring from the fold of God
He to rescue me from danger, interposed His precious blood

Oh to grace how great a debtor Daily I'm constrained to be
Let Thy goodness like a fetter, Bind my wandering heart to Thee
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, Prone to leave the God I love,
Here's my heart O take and seal it, Seal it for Thy courts above.

If you ever read those old hymns you can see that those saints were aware of grace..This unmerited love and favor. I love the words "daily I'm constrained to be a debtor to grace" We don't seek to cast the pearls of grace into the mud for the world to crush into the ground. (casting pearls to swine) True Grace causes us to daily be constrained. The LOVE of God constrains us. Wow. If people would get a grasp on grace!!! We have every reason NOT to sin and instead are constrained by it to seek to do well and in Christ to be able to do well.