Really? Better for God to sin and force one to be saved???
Then He should have forced Lucifer not to rebel and we wouldn't have this mess....But God doesn't work like that. God is love...He is not a God of force, but choice.
Once Saved, Always Saved??
- Thread starter elizabethlear
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Really? Better for God to sin and force one to be saved???
Then He should have forced Lucifer not to rebel and we wouldn't have this mess....But God doesn't work like that. God is love...He is not a God of force, but choice.
....this is ridiculous!
Ok..guys...good luck on your self-salvation!
I'm bowing out of this discussion before it gets any weirder.
Be blessed!
Ok..guys...good luck on your self-salvation!
I'm bowing out of this discussion before it gets any weirder.
Be blessed!
How would it be a sin if he forced us to know him and have a love with him that we could never begin to imagine? If he chose to force us into his loving arms it wouldn't be a sin
This is about a believer, who was made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, but apostatized (not to be confused with backsliding) and now the Holy Spirit is removed from his life and he therefore has no desire to repent.
This believer committed the unpardonable sin. It's the sin of unbelief.
I am in no way trying to kid anyone, forcing something is not a sin it's the heart behind it that makes it a sin.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (see Heb 10:10, i.e., "in Christ" we have salvation full an complete), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
So anyone who sins willfully, i.e., tramples the Son of God (Christ) underfoot and insult the Spirit of God, has hardened his heart. He had gone back under the law and the law will judge him harshly in the judgment.
Really? Then you have issues. Try forcing my will and see if you don't end up behind bars.
Nut theology:
Hey, I'm God, I love you, but if you don't love me back I'll burn you forever!
or
Hey, I'm God, I love you, you can't leave me. I'll force you to stay with me no matter what you want to do. I do what I want....I don't even know why I ask you to believe in me...I should have made you believe. I do what I want.
Hey, I'm God, I love you, but if you don't love me back I'll burn you forever!
or
Hey, I'm God, I love you, you can't leave me. I'll force you to stay with me no matter what you want to do. I do what I want....I don't even know why I ask you to believe in me...I should have made you believe. I do what I want.
Yes I have issues many of them but not the kind you speak of. Think of this if you have kids and one of them was walking into a venomous snake pit and you said for them to stay away from it but they didn't want to listen you would force him to stay away by any means out of love and protection correct? Or would you let him choose?
The force that God would use if he chose to force us to be saved would be like that
Sure, God will try to reason with us through His Spirit, but ultimately that choice is ours, isn't it? Then faith is a daily choice made by free-will believers. Follow?
That's because it is a cop out. It's the popular no-true-Scotsman fallacy, or in this case, the no-true-exchristian fallacy. They believe that once someone genuinely accepts Christ as their Savior, they can never disbelieve or walk away from the faith.
Now people who don't believe in OSAS have no problem acknowledging that exchristians exist. To them, these are people who have accepted Christ at one point in their life, but for various reasons, have walked away from their faith and have lost their salvation as a result of that.
For the believer of OSAS, there is a problem here, since salvation cant be lost. When someone walks away from their faith, sometimes even openly rejecting the existence of the God they once believed in wholeheartedly, is it logical to believe that God still keeps them saved? Most people will say no, and so they have no choice but to believe that the person must have never been genuinely saved to begin with. They are backed into a corner here with this belief. It doesn't matter how strong the person's testimony is. It doesn't matter how much evidence they give as to how much they truly believed in and loved God at one point in time. It really doesn't matter what sort of evidence is presented or shown, the believer of OSAS is forced to believe that the person must have never been a true believer solely because they are now no longer a believer. Herein lies the fallacy that they must accept in order to keep their beliefs rational.
Of course, there are some progressive OSAS believers who acknowledge that people can fall away, but they would still be saved. They draw their defense mostly from the argument of time and how God exists outside of time. In today's world, there is so much emphasis placed on where you are spiritually at the time of your death. If someone was a genuine believer since age 15, but no longer believed for their last 5 years of life, what (other than time) makes this person different from someone who was a nonbeliever all their life but accepted Christ and lived 5 more years before they died. Both of them had a period in their life where they truly and genuinely believed in and loved God and accepted Christ as their savior. Both also had periods where they did not believe. Yet...due to timing alone...one goes to heaven and the other to hell. That's why some argue that once you are saved, you are always saved no matter what (just don't expect many rewards in heaven in some cases).
Either way, the important thing is to make sure you aren't backing yourself up into a theological corner. Former believes exist out there. I know way too many Christians believe they don't exist, but they do. So when it comes to OSAS, you need to acknowledge that and decide whether you believe in OSAS acknowledging that these people who walk away are still saved or if you don't believe in OSAS and these people are now unsaved. I would say search the Scriptures, but I'm sure you know that the Bible seems to have a litany of verses supporting both sides of the argument. In this Biblical gray area, one must rely, at least in part, on logical reasoning.
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Are you once saved, always saved folks reading my Bible quotes or ignoring them?
We are once saved, always saved as long as our faith remains in Christ Jesus. Dig?
I mean, come on folks...have you lost your ever loving minds.....Common sense.
I know it works I was only saying it would be better if all were saved and lathered in his love
instead of some burning in the fire, however I trust him and I know he does everything for a reason. The phrase I spoke saying God treasures a willing heart not a forced one was he spoke to me when I was young in faith and Begged him to take my free will because I had no problem being a mindless puppet for him
Well, God does....He wants genuine belief in Him and His Son. He doesn't want forced belief (like the RCC did back in the dark ages). If He did, it wouldn't really be belief, would it?
Sarcasm is at no charge.....
[h=2]Re: Why have so many people left cc?[/h]
The seemingly never ending debate surrounding OSAS. In all it's incantations, that as quickly as they are dispatched, 2 more take their place, are a big reason why some have left.
I do think one thing the site could do to mitigate it is to not show ALL the posts of the SAME thread down the whole front page, but rather just the LAST post.Not sure how logistically this could be done though. This would enable more, and varied threads to be shown on the home page without scrolling down to a thread someone wants to respond to.
I do think one thing the site could do to mitigate it is to not show ALL the posts of the SAME thread down the whole front page, but rather just the LAST post.Not sure how logistically this could be done though. This would enable more, and varied threads to be shown on the home page without scrolling down to a thread someone wants to respond to.
Okay, time for encouragement:
Heb 10:
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
In other words keep the faith....Don't abandon Christ, if you do it's over for you.
Again, we are talking about premeditated apostasy, not back sliding.
Heb 10:
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
In other words keep the faith....Don't abandon Christ, if you do it's over for you.
Again, we are talking about premeditated apostasy, not back sliding.
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One more post..and then I'm done.
The book of Hebrews was for the Hebrews..in Chapter 6 and 10 the author of Hebrews was telling those Jewish people that if after hearing about Jesus as the Messiah..coming to a knowledge of the truth.. they then reject "receiving" Jesus and go back to the temple to do their jewish sacrifices. If you reject Jesus..there is no other sacrifice for sins..His Blood is enough!..That's why there is no repentance. There is only one sin that is unpardonable = not believing in Christ.
The willful sin one is just so lame..again talking about Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and going to the temple for their cleansing of sins and not accepting Jesus as Savior.
All sin is willful too..If it was willful sin...none would be saved according to this doctrine.....no..it's the willful sin of rejecting Jesus that leads one to destruction
Hebrews 6 :4-8 is talking about jewish unbelievers who saw God in action..miracles ( partakers of the Holy Spirit..like Judas did and saw )..they were "enlightened" that Jesus was the Messiah but refused Him.
Hebrews 6:9 is now talking to believers.." But, beloved ( this is a believer ) we are convinced of better things of you., and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking these things."
The author of Hebrews wanted to reassure the believing jews that this ( verses 4-8 ) did not pertain to them incase they took it wrong and it upset them.
Context is everything....you can't take a scripture out of it's setting...context is everything.! If you take scripture out of it's context..that "text" will "con" you...
Ok..I'm out!..Be blessed everyone!
The book of Hebrews was for the Hebrews..in Chapter 6 and 10 the author of Hebrews was telling those Jewish people that if after hearing about Jesus as the Messiah..coming to a knowledge of the truth.. they then reject "receiving" Jesus and go back to the temple to do their jewish sacrifices. If you reject Jesus..there is no other sacrifice for sins..His Blood is enough!..That's why there is no repentance. There is only one sin that is unpardonable = not believing in Christ.
The willful sin one is just so lame..again talking about Jewish people rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and going to the temple for their cleansing of sins and not accepting Jesus as Savior.
All sin is willful too..If it was willful sin...none would be saved according to this doctrine.....no..it's the willful sin of rejecting Jesus that leads one to destruction
Hebrews 6 :4-8 is talking about jewish unbelievers who saw God in action..miracles ( partakers of the Holy Spirit..like Judas did and saw )..they were "enlightened" that Jesus was the Messiah but refused Him.
Hebrews 6:9 is now talking to believers.." But, beloved ( this is a believer ) we are convinced of better things of you., and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking these things."
The author of Hebrews wanted to reassure the believing jews that this ( verses 4-8 ) did not pertain to them incase they took it wrong and it upset them.
Context is everything....you can't take a scripture out of it's setting...context is everything.! If you take scripture out of it's context..that "text" will "con" you...
Ok..I'm out!..Be blessed everyone!
It doesn't say that and you know it. Look at the context:
Heb 10:22 ....let us (believers) draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (i.e., meeting in church), as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we (believers) sin willfully ....
Shame on you for distorting what Paul is actually saying...Shame.