Hyper grace

[PeterJens]

Hyper-grace

Prince talks about a court room in which the guilty are found guilty. His view seems to be the court room is no more in Jesus.
The court room is pictured as the law condemning the guilty.

I see Jesus as saying the court room is righteous and justice and can never be destroyed. On the contrary, He desires to transcend the court room and ask, is not the problem about trust and loyalty?

Sin starts with I want. Then I can take. Then it is unfair I do not have. Then I will possess.
Jesus starts with you have needs. Then I will give. You can trust me. The wants of the world are blown in the wind.

So sin stops being an issue, because righteousness, doing what is appropriate is put in its place.

In following Jesus we fulfill the law, because we desire to do what is helpful, to meet needs, to serve, to be humble and take the lowest place, because that is where we need to be.

If I could touch one person with how much love God has for them, then I would do it. Much of how good society functions is to balance out failure and success, so success benefits all and failure is recognised and abandoned.

But this is not the picture of hyper-grace. It blames legalism for spiritual failure, rather than a deeper walk with Jesus that overcomes sin and failure. It is the emotional barriers in our hearts that block the potential Jesus has for us.

To know where you stand imagine you had all the wealth and power any person could ever get. What would you do?
Very soon you will find you take control, and your own agenda, lifestyle, benefits become a priority to make the future secure, safe, without risk. But already illusion and sin have crept in and we have not noticed. It is very hard to keep a good balance, which is why the lottery win is often a curse rather than a blessing to most.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree with you on how love looks like in action with regards to others...

again this is a "straw-man" as it appears you are going off on a psychological/philosophical/emotional tangent ( albeit it is true that the good questions to ask are who do you trust...Jesus fulfills your true needs...etc...all good stuff but not the purpose of the teaching ).

You have completely missed the whole purpose of the teaching which was to show what the new commandments are in the New Covenant. To not go back to the law commandments as these 2 commandments fulfill all the law..

The judicial court thing was just saying that the law demands retribution to your actions. It was 2 seconds long.

The teaching then went on to say that we are to love one another "as" I have loved you. That we need to focus in on how much Jesus loves us so that His love will flow out of us to others. How can we really love others unless we know the love of God. ( Paul has this is his prayer in Eph 3:16-19..whic is to know the love of Christ to be filled up with all the fullness of God )

The teaching then went on to say that God blesses every ministry that from the pulpit they teach you about the love of Jesus as they are helping you to fulfill the new commandment - love one another...

Here is the video..if anyone wants to see what is being said...it's a blessing to learn of the love of our Lord for us!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOuRstEVz14

Hyper-grace

Prince talks about a court room in which the guilty are found guilty. His view seems to be the court room is no more in Jesus.
The court room is pictured as the law condemning the guilty.

I see Jesus as saying the court room is righteous and justice and can never be destroyed. On the contrary, He desires to transcend the court room and ask, is not the problem about trust and loyalty?

Sin starts with I want. Then I can take. Then it is unfair I do not have. Then I will possess.
Jesus starts with you have needs. Then I will give. You can trust me. The wants of the world are blown in the wind.

So sin stops being an issue, because righteousness, doing what is appropriate is put in its place.

In following Jesus we fulfill the law, because we desire to do what is helpful, to meet needs, to serve, to be humble and take the lowest place, because that is where we need to be.

If I could touch one person with how much love God has for them, then I would do it. Much of how good society functions is to balance out failure and success, so success benefits all and failure is recognised and abandoned.

But this is not the picture of hyper-grace. It blames legalism for spiritual failure, rather than a deeper walk with Jesus that overcomes sin and failure. It is the emotional barriers in our hearts that block the potential Jesus has for us.

To know where you stand imagine you had all the wealth and power any person could ever get. What would you do?
Very soon you will find you take control, and your own agenda, lifestyle, benefits become a priority to make the future secure, safe, without risk. But already illusion and sin have crept in and we have not noticed. It is very hard to keep a good balance, which is why the lottery win is often a curse rather than a blessing to most.

 

[james57]

But Jesus spoke in the present tense when he stated the law hung on two commandments when the old covenant was in force. And under that covenant the law remained in place.

In my view the law God requires you to keep remains in place under the new covenant( the heart of the law) but the penalty for breaking it has been removed, for Jesus died for your sins
The law cannot condemn you with the attached penalty removed, and the penalty for disobedience is the true power of sin, not the holy, good and righteous laws of God themselves

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hyper-grace

Prince talks about a court room in which the guilty are found guilty. His view seems to be the court room is no more in Jesus.
The court room is pictured as the law condemning the guilty.

I see Jesus as saying the court room is righteous and justice and can never be destroyed. On the contrary, He desires to transcend the court room and ask, is not the problem about trust and loyalty?

Sin starts with I want. Then I can take. Then it is unfair I do not have. Then I will possess.
Jesus starts with you have needs. Then I will give. You can trust me. The wants of the world are blown in the wind.

So sin stops being an issue, because righteousness, doing what is appropriate is put in its place.

In following Jesus we fulfill the law, because we desire to do what is helpful, to meet needs, to serve, to be humble and take the lowest place, because that is where we need to be.

If I could touch one person with how much love God has for them, then I would do it. Much of how good society functions is to balance out failure and success, so success benefits all and failure is recognised and abandoned.

But this is not the picture of hyper-grace. It blames legalism for spiritual failure, rather than a deeper walk with Jesus that overcomes sin and failure. It is the emotional barriers in our hearts that block the potential Jesus has for us.

To know where you stand imagine you had all the wealth and power any person could ever get. What would you do?
Very soon you will find you take control, and your own agenda, lifestyle, benefits become a priority to make the future secure, safe, without risk. But already illusion and sin have crept in and we have not noticed. It is very hard to keep a good balance, which is why the lottery win is often a curse rather than a blessing to most.

No one is teaching love has no actions. In fact we are teaching love fulfills the law.

One can not love the way God loves unless God loves them first. that is why a non believer who has never experienced Gods love can not do any righteous deed, thats why it says there are non righteous no not one, no one who seeks Gods will. They can't

in the same token, a person who has truly experienced Gods love can never live as he did before. thats why john says they have been born of God, thats why they cant sin (live in sin)

 

[Budman]

in the same token, a person who has truly experienced Gods love can never live as he did before. thats why john says they have been born of God, thats why they cant sin (live in sin)

So true. Before salvation, sinning came natural to us. We weren't bothered by it. After salvation, it has become repugnant to us. We cannot sin without feeling horrid.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So true. Before salvation, sinning came natural to us. We weren't bothered by it. After salvation, it has become repugnant to us. We cannot sin without feeling horrid.

thats the HS at work in our souls. and the new nature we have in Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

You guys are really "hyper" on here...

I'm labelling you guys - "hyper-love"

 

[PeterJens]

So when someone says we must do good first

I am not aware anyone is saying we must do good first. Now hyper-grace has never been about non-christians but christians who it is claimed are in legalism.

As I have said before the problem has never been about the desire to be righteous but about failure and hypocracy.
Jesus's critism of the pharisees was their desire to be right about minor issues, while missing the major life issues.
So church meetings, being together yet not communicating is a waste of time, passive interaction.
Being real with each other and learning boundaries is part of learning to walk in the grace Jesus has given us.

 

[PeterJens]

The goal of Jesus is to produce a Holy people.

One of the biggest life issues is intimacy, loneliness, hidden emotional imbalances. It is a big ask to say we are to love each other as brother and sister. To even begin to approach such a thing, ask yourself how well you get on with your biological family. How many people in your church would you walk the other way rather than talk to them?

We talk all these ideals, absolutes, but if we fail to even see these kind of issues we are still in nursery.

If the teachers from the pulpit talk merely religious language, and are not at the level of talking relationship reality, their faith does not add up to much.

We are quick to talk about personal conviction of sin, but walking in love and acceptance of others is a different matter.
Just look at cc and how hard people find one sarcastic comment, or a sharp response, or a difference of opinion. And this is just ideas, not even proper interaction. This is where the rubber hits the tarmac.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The goal of Jesus is to produce a Holy people.

One of the biggest life issues is intimacy, loneliness, hidden emotional imbalances. It is a big ask to say we are to love each other as brother and sister. To even begin to approach such a thing, ask yourself how well you get on with your biological family. How many people in your church would you walk the other way rather than talk to them?

We talk all these ideals, absolutes, but if we fail to even see these kind of issues we are still in nursery.

If the teachers from the pulpit talk merely religious language, and are not at the level of talking relationship reality, their faith does not add up to much.

We are quick to talk about personal conviction of sin, but walking in love and acceptance of others is a different matter.
Just look at cc and how hard people find one sarcastic comment, or a sharp response, or a difference of opinion. And this is just ideas, not even proper interaction. This is where the rubber hits the tarmac.

There does seem to be a proclivity to talk about sin as being anything other than love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not aware anyone is saying we must do good first. Now hyper-grace has never been about non-christians but christians who it is claimed are in legalism.

Grace is hyper. it is free, you can not get free-er than free.

Hypergrace is a term used by legalists to deny grace. all grace is "hyper"

Licentiousness (easy believism) is not grace (mercy based on humility), it is another form of pride. it says no one can tell me what to do I am my own God.

As I have said before the problem has never been about the desire to be righteous but about failure and hypocracy.
Jesus's critism of the pharisees was their desire to be right about minor issues, while missing the major life issues.
So church meetings, being together yet not communicating is a waste of time, passive interaction.
Being real with each other and learning boundaries is part of learning to walk in the grace Jesus has given us.

in other words, they excused their sin, Which is what a legalist does. Yet they scream that it is the grace believer that excuses their sin, when that is not the case. Legalsim causes people to be like the pharisee and water down the law so they are not sinning, when they really are.. not grace..

Grace frees a person from sin.. It does not promote sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The goal of Jesus is to produce a Holy people.

No. The goal of jesus was to restore mankind to himself. which was the message of the cross.

One of the biggest life issues is intimacy, loneliness, hidden emotional imbalances. It is a big ask to say we are to love each other as brother and sister. To even begin to approach such a thing, ask yourself how well you get on with your biological family. How many people in your church would you walk the other way rather than talk to them?

We talk all these ideals, absolutes, but if we fail to even see these kind of issues we are still in nursery.

If the teachers from the pulpit talk merely religious language, and are not at the level of talking relationship reality, their faith does not add up to much.

We are quick to talk about personal conviction of sin, but walking in love and acceptance of others is a different matter.
Just look at cc and how hard people find one sarcastic comment, or a sharp response, or a difference of opinion. And this is just ideas, not even proper interaction. This is where the rubber hits the tarmac.

Yes, we sometimes act fleshly and not out of love.

That just proves we are still sinners who are in need of grace every day of our lives.

Any day I wake up, and I am not where I deserve to be (hell) is a good day.

we all need to have that attitude.

 

[ladylynn]

You wrote a lot Lynn and skirted round the questions, I have directly addressed them

Good morning James, I must say to you and hope you believe me, I don't skirt around issues., what is the point of skirting an issue? So could it possibly be that you and I are on different roads of thought or understanding in this matter? I believe so. So instead of thinking I'm purposefully trying to avoid an issue, give me the benefit of the doubt that I am trying to answer you.

I see no point in getting annoyed or finding fault. Patience is required and much grace as we deal with one another. To me it seems to have been answered really well but you have missed it. To you it has not been answered at all. Soooo come, let us reason together... let's not get annoyed... OK??

 

[Grace777x70]

Time for some fun!

Patient Endurance (Revelation 14:12) – Escape to Reality

 

[ladylynn]

I agree with you on how love looks like in action with regards to others...

again this is a "straw-man" as it appears you are going off on a psychological/philosophical/emotional tangent ( albeit it is true that the good questions to ask are who do you trust...Jesus fulfills your true needs...etc...all good stuff but not the purpose of the teaching ).

You have completely missed the whole purpose of the teaching which was to show what the new commandments are in the New Covenant. To not go back to the law commandments as these 2 commandments fulfill all the law..

The judicial court thing was just saying that the law demands retribution to your actions. It was 2 seconds long.

The teaching then went on to say that we are to love one another "as" I have loved you. That we need to focus in on how much Jesus loves us so that His love will flow out of us to others. How can we really love others unless we know the love of God. ( Paul has this is his prayer in Eph 3:16-19..whic is to know the love of Christ to be filled up with all the fullness of God )

The teaching then went on to say that God blesses every ministry that from the pulpit they teach you about the love of Jesus as they are helping you to fulfill the new commandment - love one another...

Here is the video..if anyone wants to see what is being said...it's a blessing to learn of the love of our Lord for us!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOuRstEVz14

Great clear explanation AND with video !!

 

[james57]

Good morning James, I must say to you and hope you believe me, I don't skirt around issues., what is the point of skirting an issue? So could it possibly be that you and I are on different roads of thought or understanding in this matter? I believe so. So instead of thinking I'm purposefully trying to avoid an issue, give me the benefit of the doubt that I am trying to answer you.

I see no point in getting annoyed or finding fault. Patience is required and much grace as we deal with one another. To me it seems to have been answered really well but you have missed it. To you it has not been answered at all. Soooo come, let us reason together... let's not get annoyed... OK??

Absolutely. Could we forthrightly-without skirting around reason the following:

I will answer the questions lynn

I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said:
Thou shalt not covet

So the frist question is. When exactly did the law come to Paul?

Well it came to him when came of age to make a personal commitment to God. Lets pick an age. Thirteen, how's that?
Therefore proof Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee

Now, through the law we become conscious of sin. Would Paul at that age have been an ardent Pharisee and refused to admit to himself he had impure thoughts? No, he wouldn't neither did I
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner.

Why do many become pharisees? Because they don't understand the true gospel, and become hard nosed to their imperfections, but they cannot truly hide from them in their heart.
Others go to the other extreme of course as you and I did.S
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner because he knows the law. He is in earnest to follow God( though with mistaken beliefs) so what does someone do who knows they cant measure up to the law but takes God seriously? A lot become phariseeical

So when the laws came to Paul it revealed the sin as it does for EVERYONE

Now sin through the commandment aroused ALL manner of concupiscence in paul. Sin MAGNIFIED in Paul, it grew greater/ stronger. Did that happen to Paul the christian or Paul the Pharisee?
It could only have happened to Paul the Pharisee according to Paul's core gospel message
Sin slew Paul through the commandment.
Now how could sin slay Paul by him breaking a law he was not under unto righteousness? It cannot, that is impossible. So Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee in those verses.
However I know none of you will ever accept it

 

[ladylynn]

So true. Before salvation, sinning came natural to us. We weren't bothered by it. After salvation, it has become repugnant to us. We cannot sin without feeling horrid.

And those who do sin, like when Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes -he did not with hold anything his eyes beheld.. and in it all when all was said and done in his life , IT WAS ALLL VANITY., life was not worth living without God. So Solomon wrote the book of Ecclesiastes from the view point of a man who was back sliden and came back to the Lord. He wrote for those who read would learn and avoid the pit falls he had to go through. And he was the wisest man on earth yet he fell. So if anyone can explain the futility of life without God's hand of approval King Solomon can.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Absolutely. Could we forthrightly-without skirting around reason the following:

I will answer the questions lynn

I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said:
Thou shalt not covet

So the frist question is. When exactly did the law come to Paul?

Well it came to him when came of age to make a personal commitment to God. Lets pick an age. Thirteen, how's that?
Therefore proof Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee

Now, through the law we become conscious of sin. Would Paul at that age have been an ardent Pharisee and refused to admit to himself he had impure thoughts? No, he wouldn't neither did I
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner.

Why do many become pharisees? Because they don't understand the true gospel, and become hard nosed to their imperfections, but they cannot truly hide from them in their heart.
Others go to the other extreme of course as you and I did.S
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner because he knows the law. He is in earnest to follow God( though with mistaken beliefs) so what does someone do who knows they cant measure up to the law but takes God seriously? A lot become phariseeical

So when the laws came to Paul it revealed the sin as it does for EVERYONE

Now sin through the commandment aroused ALL manner of concupiscence in paul. Sin MAGNIFIED in Paul, it grew greater/ stronger. Did that happen to Paul the christian or Paul the Pharisee?
It could only have happened to Paul the Pharisee according to Paul's core gospel message
Sin slew Paul through the commandment.
Now how could sin slay Paul by him breaking a law he was not under unto righteousness? It cannot, that is impossible. So Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee in those verses.
However I know none of you will ever accept it

Same answer..

Paul murdered people and did not think it was sin, and you want us to think when he was 13 he understood what lust was, and realized he was doing it??

I can not agree with this.. (for everyone to see and why, I know James will not answer)

sorry bro, But your way off on this, and your still demanding, when she has answered you so many times..

 

[james57]

Good morning James, I must say to you and hope you believe me, I don't skirt around issues., what is the point of skirting an issue? So could it possibly be that you and I are on different roads of thought or understanding in this matter? I believe so. So instead of thinking I'm purposefully trying to avoid an issue, give me the benefit of the doubt that I am trying to answer you.

I see no point in getting annoyed or finding fault. Patience is required and much grace as we deal with one another. To me it seems to have been answered really well but you have missed it. To you it has not been answered at all. Soooo come, let us reason together... let's not get annoyed... OK??

Actually Lynn there was no need to write as much as you did, three simple questions required three one word answers:

Did the law firstly come to Paul as a Pharisaee or a Christian, and therefore according to what Paul wrote, did he firstly know of lust as a Pharisee or a Christian?

Did sin through the law arouse all manner of concupiscence in Paul the Christian or Paul the Pharisee? Or we can say did sin grow/magnify in Paul the Pharisee or Paul the Christian?

Did sin slay through the commandment Paul the Christian or Paul the Pharisee?

With the greatest of respect Lynn, these questions only required one word answers didnt they. Generally I find the longer the explanation the more deflection from answering simple/straightforward questions.
However, I accept your explanation you were not doing that.
Perhaps you could possibly address the above questions and as requested simply reply to them as asked.

Many thanks

 

[ladylynn]

Absolutely. Could we forthrightly-without skirting around reason the following:

I will answer the questions lynn

I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said:
Thou shalt not covet

So the frist question is. When exactly did the law come to Paul?

I don't know when exactly Paul got the law. I do know he had it for years and built his life on it. And in his self righteousness that was taught to him by other pharisees who were holy in their own sight, that he could do it too. The standard was how well we could do it on the outside. The heart issue was not an issue. He could follow the law realllly good and it was acceptable enough to go before God and be a son of Abraham, just like his forefathers.
Many people "lie" but call them 'white lies' since they lie for a good reason they justify the lie and call it a white lie. The blindness of sin just sees the outside of the person, he can look really good and feel really good for a reallly long time. Some never allow the HolySpirit to convict them of sin because to admit their good intentions were 'sin' would mean allllll of the things they did would have to be re-looked at and put under the God perfect microscope. It would also mean their wonderful teachers and family and friends all through their lives would have to be put under a microscope and even if we think we are wrong., how can we see that wonderful family member as wrong?? no way. so many do not dig deeper.

Many people call that taking God tooo seriously. God knows your not a murderer. Surly God sees my heart attitude and that I'm obviously better than this guy or that guy. The blindness of man uses the law to justify himself. The law has been around for years and many think and truly believe they have accomplished the doing of it to some degree. That is why religion is so popular. It's 'doable' from man's standpoint. But not God's standard.

Well it came to him when came of age to make a personal commitment to God. Lets pick an age. Thirteen, how's that?
Therefore proof Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee

yup, he was so self righteous and learned from the most self righteous guys how good he and they were. He learned how to be one of the best religious guy there was and was added to their number.. another self righteous religious pharisee.

Now, through the law we become conscious of sin. Would Paul at that age have been an ardent Pharisee and refused to admit to himself he had impure thoughts? OF COURSE, self righteous religious pharisees (and people) do not use the standard of perfection., they use a human comparison and how well they can live their lives without being found out. That is why man made religion rots. It upholds man's self righteousness and ignores God's standard for perfection. It does all kinds of good things but ignores God's heart standard. The Bible says He will give us hearts of flesh. Before we are born again we have hearts of stone.




No, he wouldn't neither did I
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner. No, Saul the young pharisee is self righteous in his works and believes he is not a sinner but a good pharisee., a great pharisee like his forefathers who followed the law and taught him. He just kept being a good pharisee and his pride grew with that. Enough so he could self righteously kill Christians and anyone who spoke against the Law. Because HE was soooo righteous and sooo good at following the law. In his self righteousness he was blind to God's standard and went with man's standards.

Why do many become pharisees? Because they don't understand the true gospel, and become hard nosed to their imperfections, but they cannot truly hide from them in their heart. You keep assuming pharisees are walking in the knowledge of the truth just because they have the law. They do not have a new heart that sees. They have Adam's fallen nature that sees human goodness, human standards and walk in that and are clue-less to what God's standards are. They actually believe they are following the commandments and are able to do them. They don't feel any reason to hide since they are PROUD and would stand before God in their own righteousness and in their forefathers righteousness truly believing God will accept them with open arms because they were soooo good and sooo religious. That is how blind man in his own pride is. That is how bad our sin nature is. We need a NEW nature.
Others go to the other extreme of course as you and I did.S
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner because he knows the law. No, Saul the young pharisee doesn't know he is a sinner because he knows the law. He has followed the law to a human tee and like me in my Catholic upbringing and like my mom and dad, we all went to church, we all went to confession., we all were following the religion closely and had a form of godliness but denied the power. We were seeped in human pride and human standards that we could infact measure up. We had the 10 commandments up in our house., I had a 10 commandment bracelet and was confident and happy that 'I' followed the 10 commandments well. Just like Saul maybe.





He is in earnest to follow God( though with mistaken beliefs) so what does someone do who knows they cant measure up to the law but takes God seriously? A lot become phariseeical

Again you can't assume everyone who follows the 10 commandments are convicted they can't do it. It is the work of the HolySpirit to convict the world of sin. And at some point it happens and when it does., we either believe we IN FACT have not been following the 10 commandments., we have failed miserably because we envied., we lied., we coveted., etc... etc... to be guilty of one is to be guilty of all.
So when the laws came to Paul it revealed the sin as it does for EVERYONE Again, it takes the HolySpirit to convict the world of sin. People have the 10 commandments before them and actually believe they are able to follow them well. The standard is not God's but our idea of who God is. We have to repent of our idea of God and change our minds. That again is a work of the HolySpirit convicting the world of sin.

Now sin through the commandment aroused ALL manner of concupiscence in paul. Sin MAGNIFIED in Paul, it grew greater/ stronger. Did that happen to Paul the christian or Paul the Pharisee? That happened to the Christian Paul because NOW he had the HolySpirit convicting him that the standard was no longer man's but God's and perfection is needed. And of course he saw now that he is far from perfect like he thought he was before when he was Saul. Saul was blinded by his self righteousness. Paul saw the truth and saw the need to 'repent and change his mind about God' But how?? how can this be done Lord... And he found the answer.... OH THANK GOD... HE (JESUS) WILL SAVE ME FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH.



It could only have happened to Paul the Pharisee according to Paul's core gospel message
Sin slew Paul through the commandment.
Now how could sin slay Paul by him breaking a law he was not under unto righteousness? It cannot, that is impossible. So Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee in those verses.
However I know none of you will ever accept it

Paul explained the process he went through as a believer who began to walk deeper in Christ. He saw the impossibility of being a Christian without being vitally united to Jesus. Abide on the Vine. Jesus said "I am the Vine you are the branches". "Without ME you can do NOTHING." We as believers must stay united on the Vine in order to be ABLE to live the Christian life. Walking the Christian life is not easy...it's IMPOSSIBLE. But all things are possible with God. Jesus gave us the way to do it. Abide on the Vine. Follow Jesus.,The Good Shepherd. We have a Good Shepherd who promises us something major. Psalm 23
The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.... read on the whole chapter and be blessed.

magnify Jesus, give Jesus the glory., When we magnify the Son, the Father is pleased. It is all about Jesus.