Hyper grace

[james57]

. This is hard talk, and I know your consciences condemn you over much in your life. But it is a lie that the Lord cannot straighten these things out. It is because you keep quiet about your struggles, and do not let others and reality in.
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Hence some are insistent Paul is speaking solely of his christian life in rom ch7

Hence some get extremely agitated If the word law is ever mentioned, or responsibility in the christian walk

Hence a core group of people only want to discuss the basics of grace

Others know they have many faults but dont hide from the whole message

Others become hardnosed due to not being able to live at where they have set the bar in their Christianity

Others live the christian life full of guilt for they reject grace

Others preach the letter but in effect water it down to accommodate their shortcomings.

The list could go on and on

I would add though. It is in my view unrealistic to expect anyone on the internet who craves theological knowledge as it were to be mature in a godly walk. There is a world of difference between that and living it out.

And i include myself for criticism too, most definately

 

[ladylynn]

Grace is about trusting in God's love and care for us now that we are in Christ. He has made all provision for us and we can trust Him with our lives day in and day out. Trust Him to lead and guide us because His promises are always kept.
When you are demand-oriented, you see everything as a demand placed on you—“I must do this…I must do that…” The result? You feel stressed and pressurized to perform, meet people’s expectations and achieve results. But when you are living under grace, you see the rich supply from God providing whatever you need for your situation despite the demands. The result? You walk in peace and always see God’s provision because your eyes are focused on His unfailing supply. As we deal with life on a day-by-day basis, we can be demand-oriented or supply-oriented. (article from "Grace")

This is a good question to ask ourselves about our Christian life. God who gave us Jesus to save from hell and damnation... Since He gave so great a gift as His Son.,the very best., the Bible says how can He not give us all things?? And He has given us all things pertaining to life and godliness. We have all we need to get through. I'm reminded of this especially as the Christmas season polarizes our life's issues.

 

[Euphemia]

No!
Lynn has stated the law came to Paul as a Pharisee

Paul plainly states
When the commandment came sin sprang to life and i died NIV

Yet Lynn believes Paul the Pharisee was not aware of sin

I suppose you can try and do gymnastics with the text to make it say something other than it plainly states

As a Pharisee, Paul upheld the law to the nth degree. He had no power over sin until he had the revelation of Jesus Christ---the Damascus road experience. When he became aware of the power of the law, by comparison to the grace of God in Christ, then he understood....just as we should now that we have experienced the grace of God in salvation.


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[james57]

As a Pharisee, Paul upheld the law to the nth degree. He had no power over sin until he had the revelation of Jesus Christ---the Damascus road experience. When he became aware of the power of the law, by comparison to the grace of God in Christ, then he understood....just as we should now that we have experienced the grace of God in salvation.


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Are you sure as a Pharisee Paul upheld the law to the nth degree?
What law are you talking about that he upheld to the nth degree?

If Paul upheld the law to the nth degree why did he have no power over sin as a Pharisee?

If he upheld the law to the nth degree as a Pharisee, why according to your belief did sin grow in him/consume Paul when he became a christian?

You just destroyed Paul's gospel message!

 

[Euphemia]

Are you sure as a Pharisee Paul upheld the law to the nth degree?
What law are you talking about that he upheld to the nth degree?

If Paul upheld the law to the nth degree why did he have no power over sin as a Pharisee?

If he upheld the law to the nth degree as a Pharisee, why according to your belief did sin grow in him/consume Paul when he became a christian?

You just destroyed Paul's gospel message!

Paul was a well-respected, high-ranking man of the law. No one outside of Christ would have any power over sin, and that would have included Paul.

Once Paul became aware of sin because of the influence of Holy Spirit, that was something he then would have to overcome in the Spirit, as we all must do. By the power of Holy Spirit and by our faith in Jesus Christ, we suddenly have an understanding of what sin is and how it works in us, and where we never had a problem before with something, all of a sudden, we do.


Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


You miss the truth Paul teaches. The gospel is intact. I appreciate it fully.

.

 

[james57]

As a Pharisee, Paul upheld the law to the nth degree. He had no power over sin until he had the revelation of Jesus Christ---the Damascus road experience. When he became aware of the power of the law, by comparison to the grace of God in Christ, then he understood....just as we should now that we have experienced the grace of God in salvation.


.

I responded to an altar call when I was young and set out on the christian path. What I didn't know then was, I tried to attain heaven EXACTLY as Paul the Pharisee did. Do you understand that? I was in earnest not to commit sin in order to attain heaven. Again I couldn't at that age relate it to law keeping or much more, for i understood little. But i was determined to live a pure and holy life for God.
The first thing I noticed was I became sin conscious. On the outside I could appear to be the perfect christian, but in the inside I started to become heavy and depressed because I knew on the inside I could not be sinless. My personality became affected, I wasn't such a nice person anymore because of the inner turmoil. I had no peace, whereas before I became a christian I did have peace. Sin grew in me at a rapid rate. In a sense I was dying.
Now I know of grace I can look back at that time and see clearly concerning it. How should i describe that tine of my life when I in reality tried to attain heaven as a Pharisee? How could I now rooted in the christian faith describe it?

I hadn't known sin before the law came to me. I hadn't known lust before the commandment/ law came to me. But through knowledge of the law or commandment all manner of concupiscence was aroused in me.


I had felt alive before the law came to me, but when it did come sin( consciousness) sprang to life in me and i died. The commandment that was ordained( in my view) to give me life( if i obeyed it) instead brought death( for i could not keep it)
Sin through the law had slew me
However I know there wad nothing wrong with Gods good and holy laws, the problem was my sin

Like I say, at the time I did not know this/ I could not have reasoned or seen that was what happened. But now as a christian looking back on my past when I tried to attain heaven as a Pharisee i can see it.

You simply don't understand, few do.

 

[james57]

Paul was a well-respected, high-ranking man of the law. No one outside of Christ would have any power over sin, and that would have included Paul.

Once Paul became aware of sin because of the influence of Holy Spirit, that was something he then would have to overcome in the Spirit, as we all must do. By the power of Holy Spirit and by our faith in Jesus Christ, we suddenly have an understanding of what sin is and how it works in us, and where we never had a problem before with something, all of a sudden, we do.


Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


You miss the truth Paul teaches. The gospel is intact. I appreciate it fully.

.

No you don't understand, but it would take humility to admit it

You said as a Pharisee Paul upheld the law to the nth degree.

Now go back and read my post where I responded to you saying that, and answer the points I made concerning it

If Paul obeyed the law to the nth degree as a pharisee, how come you believe he had no power over sin in his life, please think about it.

And if Paul as a Pharisee obeyed the law to the nth degree how come Paul the christian couldn't? For according to your belief all manner of concupiscence was aroused in Paul the christian. In Paul the christian you believe sin grew stronger and consumed him
I repeat, you just destroyed Paul's gospel message

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I responded to an altar call when I was young and set out on the christian path. What I didn't know then was, I tried to attain heaven EXACTLY as Paul the Pharisee did. Do you understand that? I was in earnest not to commit sin in order to attain heaven. Again I couldn't at that age relate it to law keeping or much more, for i understood little. But i was determined to live a pure and holy life for God.
The first thing I noticed was I became sin conscious. On the outside I could appear to be the perfect christian, but in the inside I started to become heavy and depressed because I knew on the inside I could not be sinless. My personality became affected, I wasn't such a nice person anymore because of the inner turmoil. I had no peace, whereas before I became a christian I did have peace. Sin grew in me at a rapid rate. In a sense I was dying.
Now I know of grace I can look back at that time and see clearly concerning it. How should i describe that tine of my life when I in reality tried to attain heaven as a Pharisee? How could I now rooted in the christian faith describe it?

I hadn't known sin before the law came to me. I hadn't known lust before the commandment/ law came to me. But through knowledge of the law or commandment all manner of concupiscence was aroused in me.


I had felt alive before the law came to me, but when it did come sin( consciousness) sprang to life in me and i died. The commandment that was ordained( in my view) to give me life( if i obeyed it) instead brought death( for i could not keep it)
Sin through the law had slew me
However I know there wad nothing wrong with Gods good and holy laws, the problem was my sin

Like I say, at the time I did not know this/ I could not have reasoned or seen that was what happened. But now as a christian looking back on my past when I tried to attain heaven as a Pharisee i can see it.

You simply don't understand, few do.

You're assuming that Paul didn't try to keep the law as a Christian. Yet you yourself admit that you did try to keep the law as a Christian.

 

[james57]

You're assuming that Paul didn't try to keep the law as a Christian. Yet you yourself admit that you did try to keep the law as a Christian.

I really dont know why I bother. You people do not have as your first concern spiritual truth, but stressing/ wanting to prove the beliefs you stress on this website are not wrong.

It is just a waste of time

 

[PeterJens]

I do not think I can make my points clearer. If you cannot hear or see, then we part company.

Saying I create a straw man, but not answering the question is admitting defeat.
On the question do I know the meaning of God or love, the answer is better than yesterday but not as good as tomorrow.

If you are truly walking in the Spirit then nothing will phase you, you truly are an overcomer. Those who talk of the law as if it is a danger, are still in condemnation. Once you admit good works or obedience are the fruit of belief, who can judge whether they are self justification or merely part of a faithful walk? Only Jesus.

So because I share the way I do, I must be a legalist and not a fruitful follower. Do you not see the judgementalism involved. The hyper-grace group are on a mission to change the church and rid it of legalism while preaching the very fruit of their faith is the thing they are condemning. There is a kind of irony here, which leads me to suggest this teaching and inspiration is actually wrong, and the fruit is discouragement, and taking people off being faithful followers of the Lord.

Worse still the corner stone of righteousness is now dismissed as being a pharisee and we are no longer called to be a light to the world. If we are no longer lights, then there is only darkness, because the only true light in this world is from the Kingdom of God.

 

[PeterJens]

Growing in the knowledge and grace of Christ is our foundation!

Our foundation is repentance from sin, believing in Jesus and the cross for redemption and walking in the Holy Spirit in obedience to the commands of Jesus.

Now if this is what you mean then amen, but I do not think so else you would not use this type of language.

growing in the knowledge of God
Col 1:10

I know we have a different gospel because your language is not biblical. We are called to know God more, to love Him with everything.

You have created a filter and a specific language which has not existed before, which indicates some kind of splinter group or heresy. Until you actually clearly define your theology other than deny its uniqueness and novelty, you can always hide behind odd interpretations and exagurations of concepts that are not true.

 

[Euphemia]

No one has power over sin outside of the new life that comes with faith in Jesus Christ. It is in Christ that one becomes aware of sin. It is because of the cross that our sin is punished once and for all on Jesus' body. That's the gospel.

You don't understand. In Christ we do not live sin-conscious lives---or at least we shouldn't. In your case, you dealt with a season.

No you don't understand, but it would take humility to admit it

You said as a Pharisee Paul upheld the law to the nth degree.

Now go back and read my post where I responded to you saying that, and answer the points I made concerning it

If Paul obeyed the law to the nth degree as a pharisee, how come you believe he had no power over sin in his life, please think about it.

And if Paul as a Pharisee obeyed the law to the nth degree how come Paul the christian couldn't? For according to your belief all manner of concupiscence was aroused in Paul the christian. In Paul the christian you believe sin grew stronger and consumed him
I repeat, you just destroyed Paul's gospel message

 

[james57]

I do not think I can make my points clearer. If you cannot hear or see, then we part company.

Saying I create a straw man, but not answering the question is admitting defeat.
On the question do I know the meaning of God or love, the answer is better than yesterday but not as good as tomorrow.

If you are truly walking in the Spirit then nothing will phase you, you truly are an overcomer. Those who talk of the law as if it is a danger, are still in condemnation. Once you admit good works or obedience are the fruit of belief, who can judge whether they are self justification or merely part of a faithful walk? Only Jesus.

So because I share the way I do, I must be a legalist and not a fruitful follower. Do you not see the judgementalism involved. The hyper-grace group are on a mission to change the church and rid it of legalism while preaching the very fruit of their faith is the thing they are condemning. There is a kind of irony here, which leads me to suggest this teaching and inspiration is actually wrong, and the fruit is discouragement, and taking people off being faithful followers of the Lord.

Worse still the corner stone of righteousness is now dismissed as being a pharisee and we are no longer called to be a light to the world. If we are no longer lights, then there is only darkness, because the only true light in this world is from the Kingdom of God.

You word well what you have written Peter, and much of it I would agree with.
For me grace will never be fathomed by the rational mind, for it I irrational. I admit my understanding of grace cones solely from Paul's message. Ge did indeed preach righteous living and no one should fault you for quoting that for stressing that.
But here is where the irrationality comes in if you like. The core of Paul's message ( to me) is you have to know your right standing/ righteousness before God is faith in Christ, apart from the law. That is quite a statement when we consider the implications of it isn't it.
It is by knowing in our hearts our righteousness before God is apart from trying/ striving to obey the law that sin shall not be our master
I think it has to come down to truly loving God in our hearts, for no one who does will seek to use grace as a licence to si, and no one who does will want the credit for the works they want to go because they love God and follow after the spirit. Therefore they cannot be termed a legalist.
As you say, only Jesus truly knows
Just ny few thoughts on the matter

 

[james57]

No one has power over sin outside of the new life that comes with faith in Jesus Christ. It is in Christ that one becomes aware of sin. It is because of the cross that our sin is punished once and for all on Jesus' body. That's the gospel.

You don't understand. In Christ we do not live sin-conscious lives---or at least we shouldn't. In your case, you dealt with a season.

You still cannot address your original post can you. Let me help you out.

Paul kept what we can term the legalistic/ ceremonial law to the nth degree, but not what we can term the moral law.

I wonder which commandment as a Pharisee he would have had the hardest job convincing himself of that he obeyed it.

Still that isn't your concern I it, you don't believe Paul the Pharisee was aware of sin in his life. And as you say, you understand romans 7&8

 

[james57]

No one has power over sin outside of the new life that comes with faith in Jesus Christ. It is in Christ that one becomes aware of sin. It is because of the cross that our sin is punished once and for all on Jesus' body. That's the gospel.

You don't understand. In Christ we do not live sin-conscious lives---or at least we shouldn't. In your case, you dealt with a season.

No i don't understand in Christ we don't have sin conscious lives. You and I believe in a different gospel

James wrote in his letters his readers should confess their sins one to another. How can they do that if they are not conscious of them?
No need to answer the question. I'm not that interested in the reply.
To be honest with you, if I stole something I would be sin conscious. If I conmitted any what we can term wilfull sin I would be conscious I had sinned. But as you say, you understand the gospel and i dont

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel of the grace of Christ is not focusing on the sinfulness of man but on the righteousness of God...

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Here is an example the gospel of the grace of Christ. Watch it and tell me how awful this is? Tell me if Jesus is not glorified and lifted up? This is the gospel that Paul preached. Look at the scriptures being preached. Look how the love of Jesus is brought to the forefront. Tell us what the heresy is? ( actually being called that is a good sign...)

Remember if your gospel does not make the listeners to say.."What?...are you saying we can sin all we want? "..if your gospel does not get that type of response ...you have not preached the true gospel. Paul was accused of preaching this "sin all you want " thing too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDCzZyrcycs

Our foundation is repentance from sin, believing in Jesus and the cross for redemption and walking in the Holy Spirit in obedience to the commands of Jesus.

Now if this is what you mean then amen, but I do not think so else you would not use this type of language.

growing in the knowledge of God
Col 1:10

I know we have a different gospel because your language is not biblical. We are called to know God more, to love Him with everything.

You have created a filter and a specific language which has not existed before, which indicates some kind of splinter group or heresy. Until you actually clearly define your theology other than deny its uniqueness and novelty, you can always hide behind odd interpretations and exagurations of concepts that are not true.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

.
As a pharisee, Paul wouldn't have known what murder was if the law had not said, 'Do not murder'.

​And Saul was agreeing with [Stephen's] murder. Now there happened on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Acts 8:1

​But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest Acts 9:1​

 

[BenFTW]

No i don't understand in Christ we don't have sin conscious lives. You and I believe in a different gospel

James wrote in his letters his readers should confess their sins one to another. How can they do that if they are not conscious of them?
No need to answer the question. I'm not that interested in the reply.
To be honest with you, if I stole something I would be sin conscious. If I conmitted any what we can term wilfull sin I would be conscious I had sinned. But as you say, you understand the gospel and i dont

James 5:16King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

James seems to be referring to restoration of the relationship, healing between two opposing parties. Meaning admitting your wrong (sin/fault) towards the person and bringing reconciliation. Nothing to do with being sin-conscious but righting ones wrong, and healing the wound between two people.

Confessing your sins to another person may make a person accountable in some way, but that is a practical and not spiritual means to victory over sin. Accountability can only go so far, in some respects it is a boast in the flesh.

Instead, one should rest in the victory we have in Christ, and come in agreement with God's word that we are dead to sin and alive unto God. James, here, is not referring to literally making a list of your sins and sharing it with others. Simply, reconciling with others and practicing humility.

 

[james57]

.
As a pharisee, Paul wouldn't have known what murder was if the law had not said, 'Do not murder'.

​And Saul was agreeing with [Stephen's] murder. Now there happened on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Acts 8:1

​But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest Acts 9:1​

Yes he justified it because he thought he was defending the true faith

How could he justify breaking the tenth commandment. Please explain

 

[james57]

James 5:16King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

James seems to be referring to restoration of the relationship, healing between two opposing parties. Meaning admitting your wrong (sin/fault) towards the person and bringing reconciliation. Nothing to do with being sin-conscious but righting ones wrong, and healing the wound between two people.

Confessing your sins to another person may make a person accountable in some way, but that is a practical and not spiritual means to victory over sin. Accountability can only go so far, in some respects it is a boast in the flesh.

Instead, one should rest in the victory we have in Christ, and come in agreement with God's word that we are dead to sin and alive unto God. James, here, is not referring to literally making a list of your sins and sharing it with others. Simply, reconciling with others and practicing humility.

I guess the man who slept with his fathers wife shouldn't have been sin conscious either